CynicalShep wrote...
@ silverexile17s
1. Full strength is full strength. Full strength is what was annihilating Quarians in space.
2. I didn't hear about Reaper pirate boarding parties. They destroyed ships in space, nothing more, nothing less.
Suit ruptures would still be deadly and Rannoch isn't defensible. You could argue that Quarians could repurpose whatever defenses Geth had but they would have to take those down in order to beat said Geth. I don't see how Rannoch is defensible at all. The planet isn't easier to hold, especially when Reapers have orbital advantage. Council races were still harassing Reapers in space, otherwise Krogan and Turian would be helpless against big squids shooting at them from space. Destroyers on the ground - sure. If all capital ships come and start hitting them they're gone. The only difference is that Reapers take their sweet time to harvest. Which they wouldn't need to do with a mere 17 million Quarians.
3. London wasn't glassed. Many other big cities were, however. It would make no sense to destroy them all, Reapers need humans to build a new bro. Quarians don't have the numbers to be that important.
Both humans and turians mentioned having millions of casualties per day. The speed at which Quarians go down only depends on how many Reapers are sent to do the job. And I repeat, Quarians don't have any infrastructure or defensible positions. Hell, they don't even know the terrain, none of them ever stepped on Rannoch.
4. That was accomplished by general Coronati. In space. The ones destroyed on the ground were only made possible because several Turian dreadnoughts lures the Reapers away, giving time to Krogan commandos to hand off the bombs they brought with them. Nothing would have been accomplished without the fleet. Also, Quarians didn't have the resources Turians had. Neither did they have Krogan commandos aiding them.
5. We have no idea. For all I know there could have been 30% of the Quarians opposed to the war. There is no data that gives exact details about it. We only know that Quarians don't mind sacrifices in a war.
6. Again, you're speculating. We just have no idea. What I know is that roughly 2 billion Quarians died. How can you explaain 17 millions easily walking over a force far superior to the one that killed more than 100 times their current numbers 300 years ago?
7. It was also partly Quarian's fault because they created them in the first place. USSR once consisted of 15? states. If Ukraine was to attack Poland now would Russians be responsible?
8. Again, you're speculating. I don't doubt that Geth have repair bots. I also know that the Geth flagship is much bigger than an Alliance dreadnought (it's mentioned by EDI in game). So no, I don't think they'll fix the ship instantly. Also, you're comparing situations that in no way similar. Sovereign was about to open a relay that would have destroyed all known intelligent organics. Gerrel risked having extra losses. Ultimately one ship, however big, doesn't win a war. A military leader who is getting all nations together under one banner does. Raan was angry because Gerrel forced her to take a decision. You're right, this is war. In war, admirals coordinate their forces towards a common goal. Gerrel went on a power trip, disregarding everybody else. We're talking about seconds here, not hours or days. "What just happened, Shepard?" would have taken less than 10 seconds. "Raan, I need your fleet's support" would have taken another 5. They fought for days. And Hackett had to choose between losing 3 fleets and losing one. Gerrel's choice was in no way similar. He just broke formation (in hindsight, probably an old habbit). This is bravado, not a military operation.
9. I get the feeling you're angry. If you are trying to have a normal conversation I'm in. If you're going to talk to me about BS there are at least 10 instanes where I can call you on that. Keep it civil or don't talk at all.
They had many choices. Attacking before Reapers arrived, making peace, staying in space. They attacked the Geth, not the way around. They had more choice than you think.
And Gerrel's only thought is destroying the Geth. Don't try to make him sound smarter than he is. There is no safe place for the Quarians in the entire galaxy. You seem to forget about the Reapers that fly around. Also Shepard was the only one who was trying to make a sense of that mess and unite the galaxy. Gerrel clearly wasn't bothered enough to think about that. Some true leader he is.
10. Valued military leaders risk it all when they have no alternative. Gerrel was never put in such a position. And I repeat, Rannoch was NOT defensible. Especially not by 17 millions, of which the majority was non-combatants.
And the treaty was signed after they were kicked out of by the Council, not before.
11. You should check the definition of a head-start. "We're killing you" is hardly one. It would have taken seconds to reason before acting. After all, Shepard had knowledge Gerrel didn't. He was in the ship and caused whatever happened. I think it would be logical to at least ask about it. I'm not saying Gerrel should have asked Shepard for his opinion, although given their positions tactical appraisal would have made perfect sense. And again, "but he survived before" is a poor argument. So did Ashley before she got blown on Virmire or the coup.
12. Jokingly - yeah. In a situation that wasn't very humorous - no.
13. You interrupt a conversation between Tali and Xen about stuff that Xen does. If you go by what Tali told you - nobody in the admiralty board is worthy of his title.
Second - that doesn't mean he waltzed through it. And we don't know if Gerrel knew that.
Third - that doesn't change the facts. Legion did more to help them than they did by themselves. And closing the comms is cowardice. Either man up and own up to your decision or don't make that decision. What was accomplished by that, exactly? Silencing Shepard? What if he had useful additional intel? If you can't take the heat get out of the kitchen.
Fourth - Shepard and Tali knew. Maybe the flotilla would have known as well if they didn't close the comms. And everybody left the Earth burn, including Quarians. It was the most logical move in the circumstances.
There is only one problem with that. If you leave the many without a leader then you have accomplished nothing. A good leader is worth more than thousands of civilians. In Shepards case - more than an entire race. Who would have continued his effort if he got killed? Gerrel? Xen? Tali? Maybe Raan?
Gerrel was focused on anything but the bigger picture. He saw Rannoch and saw the Geth he hated so much. Everything else was peripheral.
Did you save Koris or the civilians?
1. Again, Tell me, in
direct qoutes, WHERE exactally "full strength" translates into "I gave the geth their upgrades back."?
Gerrel isn't psychic. How the HELL is he supposed to know that "full strength" means full Reaper-upgraded strength?
2. Reapers have harvesting ships, and of course, the Colletors. Or did you not get that far into ME2? Where they BOARDED the ship before trying to destroy it? And none of the old ships had as signifigant a population as the quarian migrant ships.
Reapers can board ships like that. The Migrant Fleet has the entire
quarian population in one convienint place. Perfect for capture.
And AGAIN, look at how EVERY OTHER WORLD is lasting longer under seige then ANY of the space fleets did. Worlds are easier to hold. And Rannoch has an unlimited supply of stationary food, unlike the Migrant Fleet.
And LOOK at Earth. HUNDREDS of Sovergin-class ships hit Earth and the cities are STILL STANDING. In teh prolouge, half a dozen ships were blasting, and the city wasn't "gone in minuets." I think you are SORELY overestimating the Reapers.
3. Millions are needed for a Sovergien-class. Less are needed for the considerably smaller Destroyer-class. The quarian population is more then adaquate to make a destroyer from.
And London was stated from Anderson as being "the worst of it on Earth," as that is where the harvesting operatioin was likely HQ'ed from, given that the Reapers build a conduit there.
THINK about that. LONDON was the worst of it, and it's still mostly intact. That being the case, it's NOT AS BAD as you keep telling yourself.
And millions are in
harvesting count, for both Reaper construction, and husk production.
And Raan seems to have the lay of the land memorized, as she says that she remembers the southeren contnent had "exelent farmland."
4. Still better then what
solitary fleet strength did. And Anderson's resistance lasted long, and brought down Destroyers as well.
And the quarians were both expecting some aid in exchange for helping in the war, AND on the fact that Rannoch isn't a major target for the Reapers.
5. Then Gerrel woul NEVER have blowen apart that Dreadnought.
And even 30% would still be 700 million, which STILL wouldn't count for the other BILLION quarians that died.
I mean are you even listening to yourself? You really think THAT many quarians would oppose this? If they did, there would have been votes called in against the government. This faction was OBVIOUSLY much smaller among the mainstream quarian sociaty.
No way THAT many members of the race would have rebelled against teh govenrment. The entire REASON the quarians didn't remember this, is because it must have been MUCH smaller then the majority of the race, in both opinion and number.
6. Xen created a virus that blinds and stuns geth sensor systems like a flashbang. It paralyzes them while Gerrel pounds them. Think the way Sovergien was left after the Saren-Husk was killed. THAT'S what Xen's weapon does to geth ships. And the quarians used it well, until they got Reaper processing upgrades that rendered this inneffective.
You should already KNOW that - it's mentioned about half a dozen times.
7. It wasn't the quarians fault that the geth became sentiant. If you start a fire, but fail to extinguish it, are you responcible for all it destroyes? Or is it just a stroke of chance, and unfortunate happenstance?
At least the quarians own the fact that they made mistakes. More then I ever see the geth do.
8. They do for the armatures. Look up "Geth armatures" in the ME1 Codex:
Armatures are quadruped all-terrain heavy weapons platforms, akin to the armored fighting vehicles of other races.
Geth being synthetic intelligences, armatures are not crewed vehicles, but
intelligent entities, capable of independent decision-making and
learning.
Armatures are equipped with heavy
kinetic barriers. Their main cannon, mounted on the articulated "head" turret, appears to be a highly efficient conventional
mass accelerator.
It is capable of firing in anti-personnel and anti-tank modes. Some
armatures carry drones into battle, presumably for reconnaissance
purposes.
Others host a swarm of insect-sized repair microbots
Note the underlined. If even those amatures have their own repair microbots, I doubt that the other geth, especally vessels and ships, wouldn't. Tali even comments on a "geth repair drone" she recovered from Hasetrom when your poking around the Alarei during her Loyalty Mission.
That is the proof of the repair drones, just in case you DID have any lingering doubts about repair bots.
Also, all Legion did was shut down the engine core. That can easily be restored. It's no different then flipping a switch.
Also, that dreadnough was going to be the death of the fleet and 17 million lives. Gerrel IS comparible, in that he is currently thinking about the fate of inncoent lives on the Liveships that will likely die in the long run if he leaves that ship to be salvaged.
And since without the dreadnought, no other geth beyond Rannoch's system have the upgrades, it means that the geth fleet is now stranded, with no reinforcement, as without the Megastructure as well, all geth are isolated and scattered, with only the geth above Rannoch in any fighting shape. So YES, that ship's death DID mean all the difference. It was the new core of their Reaperized concensis, and with it gone, the only geth that are nay threat anymore right now are the ones sitting over Rannoch.
And YOU should know that no plan survives contact with the enemy. Especally when it comes to the Reapers. Raan was a dear in headlights, like the Council members. She's not cut out for military command. Gerrel HAS seen combat from a young age. He KNOWS that in war, you either act now, or risk not acting at all. He WASN'T on a power trip, anymore then Hackett was when leading forces against the Turians in the First Contact War.
He was proactive. He made a decision that no one else was willing to make because
that's what commanders do. I doubt people woule have agreed with Shepard's decision to blow the Alpha Relay.
And it was wither kill the ship, or potentally lose
the whole fleet. That is EXACTALLY SIMILAR TO HACKETT.
9. I simply don't get how you can talk trash about Gerrel when he's no different then Hackett in this regard. No one else on the Admiralty Board has any real experance in warfare, or the hard decisions that came with it. The only other one that did see combat first-hand like that was Rael'Zorah, Tali's father. And you are wrong on all thses acounts because:
A) They likely wouldn't HAVE attacked if not driven to desperation by the arrival of the Reapers. Intents to fight them are why the quarians resolved to take Rannoch in the first place.
B)Legion cut contact with Tali, and as far as anyone else knew, the geth were still allies of the Reapers, and the Council still had a state of war with them.
C)Staying in space was a death sentance, as the Migrant Fleet, if not offloaded with the civilians anytime soon, would need a constant supply of resources (fuel, and energy to cultivate food) to run, as well as constant interdependancy in order to simply move from place to place. They could never effectively help anyone, as they would be completely incapable of splitting the fleet apart to cover multiple fronts. No one had the colonies that could support the high-matinance quarians of that large a number, or the dextro rations to even spare that the still- fighting turian military wouldn't need.
So in short, Re-taking Rannoch was THE LAST HOPE they had, not just to be able to fight
period, but to even be sure they survived the war itself.
Gerrel's only thought is first and formost the safety of his poeple. He may not like the geth, but that grudge takes a backseat when it comes to the safety of the Mirgant Fleet. And right now, the geth themselves are a threat to everyone while they serve the Reapers. If the quarians pull out now, they risk the geth spilling out to aid the Reapers against the rest of the galaxy. This is literally where the line must be drawn. Rannoch is the last safe haven the quarians will ever hope to have. It's their last chance to be able to survive period.
And the Reapers are streatched thin having to fight every race at once. The are having MUCH more trouble fighting races entrenched on their own worlds then those that aren't. Just look at Arcturus Station. Core of the Alliance government, and it falls in hours. Earth: Still fighting. Palaven: Still fighting. Thessia: Still fighting. Every other major world: Still fighting.
That shoud be an exapmle of ehat haveing a stable world as a power base can do for people.
And the quarians are naturally insular. The outside concerns rarely matter to them, except in this case, where the Reapers spurn them to try to recover their world.
10. Dead
Wrong. Gerrel was put in said position when the dreadnought was disabled. It was tearing his people to shreads earlier. He has a chance to prevent it from happening AGAIN.
Anyone is going to take it. And he had no choice but to retake Rannoch so that those civilians coule HAVE a place to bunker down.
And again, that was back when the geth were unknown. After the (supposedly) unprovoked geth lit up the Traverse and tore the Citadel a new one,
everyone wanted dead geth. It became
open season on them, and the Council basically declared them a faction at open war with the Citadel Races. So you expect the quarians to not shoot geth when everyone else under Council juristiction has full permission to do so? Are you kidding?
That Council agreement is basically redundant at this point, ever since the geth were classed as Reaper Allies, and that statius never changes unless you resolve the conflict in peace.
11. Gerrel could have just kept the comms off fromn the start. He didn't.
And Gerrel had no way of knowing anything because that ship could come back up any second for all he knew. It was time for decisive action, and with Koris stranded, possibly dead, Tali inexperanced in tactical warfare, Xen being Xen (not caring either way), and Raan panicked, he was the only one that was able and willing to make the call when it was needed.
And the situation with Ashley isn't really counted here, since you can avoid that entirely by restoring your trust with her.
Gerrel knows that Shepard has survived worse. After all, what the Commander lived through is practally legend.
12. Reagrdless, Shepard has lived through alot. I think the only suprise if Shepard
didn't make it off that Ship.
13. I'm sure people are saying the
same thing about Hackett for throwing away the Second Fleet, and for failing to save Arcturus Station. You NEVER DO get to talk with any of Hackett's peers, aside from Anderson. Raan is a diplomat, and not someone that should be commanding an armada. Koris is pasifistic, and tries to see the logic of both sides, but can get a little disconnected from it if he playes both sides to much. Xen is self-contained, and I doubt SHE could lead a fleet effectively. Tali is inexperanced, and doesn't have the confidence to make such heat-of-the-moment decisions with the responce time that Gerrel has.
Gerrel is the one with the experance, and the will to at the very least step up to the plate. Even if a decsion is wrong, I'd still rather be brave enough to MAKE the call then sit back and watch the price of apathy and inaction - the same as Shepard in ME2: Arrival, and Hackett. I mean, look where iinaction got the geth: isolated and with no allies.
Second - the fact the Commander lived through it is impressive. And enough to breed confidence in Shepard's survival skill.
Third - Clsoing the comms was to keep out geth eavesdroppers as they coordinated the attack on the disabled dreadnought. Besides, we never find out if Gerrel can even HEAR Shepard after the Core is shut down. Gerrel and Raan never respond after, so it's possible that it was a one-way comm.
You seem to be going diliberatly out of your way to vilinize Gerrel without even looking at his reasonings or the conditions of open war.
Fourth - Not admissable. Shepard was under Alliance Tribunal for blowing up a Mass Relay and wiping out a Batarian colony. Couple that with the Commander's Cerberus ties, and Shepard's word is inadmissable as evidence of the geth being friendly, or even neutral. Tali's word isn't trustible, as it's not known if her source is based on reliable information - a single geth whose word is only backed by someone that has more strikes against them then should be humanly possible.
The quarians were fearful of being caught in space against the Reapers, as they couldn't riske their entire species againat a Race that excelled in ship-to-ship combat. All the other races were ALREADY under attack. The ONLY race this wasn't true for was the geth.
Shepard took that risk during the Collector Base, no? A leader like what YOU talk about? That would be the Illsuive Man.
A REAL leader is in the trenches with the people, and doesn;t CONSIDER himself or herself as so vital. You act as if Shepard idolizes herself/himself, when the Commander consatntly asks what is it about the him/her that makes Hackett put so much trust in Shepard.
REAL soldiers are willing to make that sacrifice. Shepard did so in ME1 and ME2. No reason for it to change now.
And there was the entrie Normandy crew to pick uo from. Shepard conidered himself/herself anything BUT special.
And in regards to your question, I picked both in different playthorughs, but on my FIRST playthrough, I saved the civilians. The second time, I saved Koris.
I feel guilty about both choices. And yet, I don't regret making either one in that case. Neither choice was "the correct call." There is only the best call. And Gerrel made the best call he could with what he had. So, I respect him for it.
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