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[esper]

ianvillan wrote...

esper wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

XX-Pyro wrote...

Why is Hawke still in Kirkwall? Why are any refugees who ever emigrated anywhere still in the place they immigrated to? Oh yeah- their home is destroyed, WHY would they leave again, when they have nowhere to go. You're the one making no sense at all on that point. Asking to be able to choose which sibling you save is like asking to choose to side with the archdemon over Ferelden (c'mon Bioware why don't I have that choice...) it's an argument that doesn't hold water because that's how the story is told. Plain and simple. And because the remaining sibling could be part of your motivation for all of Act 1, gaining status to avoid the templars as best possible. I'll agree that overall what Hawke did didn't change very much- shame that we can't mold the world to the PC's liking.

Why after making a fortune in the deep roads and over a year after the end of the blight is Hawke still in Kirkwall the capital of crazy town which is known as a fanatical Templar stronghold. What justification is there for staying in Kirkwall at all.

I would even say in what right mind would anyone who is a free mage go to Kirkwall in the first place, and it cant be because you have family who are nobles because even having family who are nobles will not stop the Templars from taking you away.

Because they have nothing, and I mean nothing in Fereldan, while Hawke's family, status as a noble, friends or companions, contacts and the man selling the treasure from the Deep Road all is in Kirkwall.,

How would being a noble protect from the templars, why would a mage willingly stay in a place where the fade is thin which makes demon possession more likely, if after making a fortune from the deep roads would you stay in a place where the tensions between the mages and templars is increasing, why would you stay in aplace where mages turn into demons in huge numbers.

You fled to Kirwall with nothing but somehow find it hard to go back somewhere safer after you had made a fortune even more then you had in fereldan to begin with.

Who says you even have to go back to fereldan in the first place, there are hundreds of better and safer places the Hawke family could go after making there fortune.

They don't know the fade is so thin. And money does protect from Templars, there are corrupt templars to be bought by money (and the second in command oweing a personal favour to you certainly help). And nobody actually knows for sure that Hawke is an apostate (which is a bit glaring, but it still is so), there are only strongly supported rumours which encourged by money that templars do not research. Gasgard was able to do it with the combination of money + status that he even got an personal apology from Meridith, and the man was an necromantic bloodmage. Meridith first have concrete proof when she walks in on you casting spell at the end of act 2 (because apperently Cullen is a blind idiot or capable of denial to a scary degree).



You don't get how it is to be an migrant. It is not easy to just rip everything off at is roots and start all over again. Hawke has already have to do it once, going back is not easy and everything you know is rooted in Kirkwall. The only reason Hawke is considered Fereldan in the first place is because of Malcom (who might have been, but where an mage so nationality doesn't really matter) and that he fled there. The truth is that Hawke is much more an marcher than fereldan.

Hawke have nothing to flee back to in Fereldan, nothing. But Hawke have everything in Kirkwall.

[nightscrawl]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

As some of you may remember when DA2 was about to be released they told us that the class Hawke starts as would automatically determine which of his/her siblings would survive and die.

They actually said that? If that's the case I'm not really sorry I missed out on the pre-DA2 forum stuff then. Too much information reveal for me. I suppose I'll have to stop looking at these forums eventually as well. Although, I'm kind of addicted to the BSN now, which I wasn't before DA2, so we'll see lol...

[Kulyok]

In Dragon's Age 2, the player is FORCED TO PLAY MAGE ALL THE TIME if they can't stand to see Carver die. That's the truth for me.

(I'd say the same is true for some players and Bethany, but I can't fathom why someone would want to save a snake who'd want to steal your husband-to-be. Anyway.)

I don't want to play as a mage. I like playing as an archer. I'd like to try a two-handed sword. Backstabs with daggers are awesome. A non-mage Hawke makes more sense storywise. A non-mage Hawke becomes a more successful ruler, in my book.

But I. Can't. See. Carver's death. Imagine if it was Alistair or Morrigan or Anders who died when they were your love interests. DA2 treats siblings as more important hostages in Act 3 than love interests, by the way, which means that the most important/closest party companion DEPENDS ON YOUR class.

... I don't want to face this choice ever again.

[nightscrawl]

^ I'll admit, that's a new view on Bethany for me.

[Gorwath-F]

Less choice for players, more linearity in the storyline. If players could write good stories, they would. Not your opinion, horray for you. Your self-inserted fan-fiction will doubtlessly be more engaging than what professionals older than, say, 19 could come up with.

[Urazz]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

^

I think DA2 would have been invariably better if both siblings live and you had to take one to the Deep Roads, where they either died or became a Grey Warden.

Then, your remaining sibling would join the Circle/Templars, in roughly the same way as otherwise. Gets rid of both siblings and doesn't imbalance the game with more mages/warriors for anything more than just the first Act.

That's pretty much what I feel and this would've been the best option in DA2.  You lost your other sibling way too early in the game to have it feel too big of an impact in my opinion.  If they truly wanted a family death at Ostagar, they could've had Hawke's father alive and die to the Ogre then.

Another option would've been to have only 1 sibling and have their class reflective of what the player's class is.

Modifié par Urazz, 04 février 2013 - 02:06 .

[ISpeakTheTruth]

In Exile wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

I hate to go off topic again but in terms of DAO's 'railroaded' plot and DA2's we have two very different cases of one being logical and one making sense at all. In DAO the reason you do what you do is because a Blight is happening the world is about to be engulfed in a massive war that is going to consume the world.

And with Loghain having betrayed all of Ferelden, with the darkspawn overrunning and erupting from the wilds, the only logical choice is to get out of Ferelden and move to Orlais, to get the Wardens, while Ferelden burns and slows the horde.

Which, of course, is totally impossible because you and Alistair have to play the heroic duo.

Fighting the Blight makes sense, gathering allies to fight the Blight makes sense, Also doing all of this might just clear your name as a king slayer.

Speaking of railroaded stupid, the very notion that (a) Loghain has your face/name, ( knows you are alive, and © personally targets you is, among other things, nonsensical and insane. Logic is not a part of it.

How is it logical to abandon Ferelden and let the Blight take over the entire country? If Ferelden didn't have any military force at all I'd go with that but Ferelden still had an impressive amount of military power. It had Eamon's forces, Logain's forces, the mages, Dwarves, and Elves. The Blight has just started, it only took the south there are still resouces to fight the Blight in Ferelden. Blights last for centuries if we just allowed the country to fall to the darkspawn then all we've done is given them a foothold in Thedas that will take centuries to put down. Orlais wasn't going to attack the Blight they were just holding the line at their borders which meant the Darkspawn could focus on making more Broodmothers and increasing their size.

Fighting the Blight in Fereldent makes the most sense, worst case scenario we would have lost but we would have caused enough damage to the darkspawn forces that it would give the other Wardens a better chance at ending the Blight now rather then centuries latter. It makes no sense to throw away resources in a war and even less sense to allow the enemy to take a massive amount of terriotory unopposed.

As for our character, he didn't have our name but we were the only Ferelden Wardens in the country. Then we do what you want and abandon the country. Someone shows up and says "Hey you killed the king of Ferelden and then you abandoned the entire country to be slaughtered." Then we get killed for betraying the order by not fighting the Blight when we had the chance.

[The Teyrn of Whatever]

Saibh wrote...

The Teryn of Whatever wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

I don't really see how it's all that different from railroading us into losing all our family as a HN.  Or Gorion back in BG.  Or Jenkins in ME1

Though I think it would have been better if we'd just had both siblings in act 1. Then we choose who goes to the deep roads and get's wardened/killed and which stays and ends up in the circle/templars.

I agree with your notion on how the twins should have been handled. Killing one or the other off by ogre so early in the game rendered their death pretty much meaningless, especially in the first playthrough when players don't know the characters or have any reason to care about them. The sibling death has all the impact and gravity of Trask Ulgo's self-sacrifice in KOTOR on the Endar Spire, which is to say no impact or gravity to speak of.

And at least Trask was some random guy. Your sibling dying should have been huge, but it was such a bizarre wooden moment.

And might well have been, if they had saved the death for later on once we'd gotten to know and care about Hawke's little brother or sister.



As for Trask, the more times I play through KOTOR, the more gleefully  I chuckle at his death (or at least the times I don't use the Super Skip Taris Mod to jump past the Endar Spire; I still play through Taris). Always thought he was kind of a dorky character with his stupid box cut and the meh performance given by his voice actor, which I guess is about what one should expect from a character whose sole purpose is to guide you through part of the tutorial. The fact that you can declare your intention to avenge Trask's death when you confront Darth Bandon before fighting him later in the game is hilariously narmy.

Modifié par The Teryn of Whatever, 04 février 2013 - 04:05 .

[Tootles FTW]

Meh. When they first announced that the siblings were directly tied to our class I had to totally rethink my first playthrough because I wanted Carver. In the end, I'm happy because I love being a mage as it's so connected to the DA2 plot.

The only warning sign I can think of that would put me off is "DA3 is a great starting point in the series for new fans!".

[In Exile]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...
How is it logical to abandon Ferelden and let the Blight take over the entire country?

DA:O railroads you. I don't mind having this argument. Put you got on a pedestal and talked about how you're stuck in Kirkwall. You're just as stuck in Ferelden. You've invented lots of reasons to justify staying in Ferelden. Good for you. There are lots of reasons to abandon it. We can do the same for Kirkwall. 

Ferelden is irrelevant. The Blight is all that matters. The Grey Wardens, and the rest of the realms, have to be rallied. This is, Word of God, what Duncan would have done had he lived past Ostagar. 

If Ferelden didn't have any military force at all I'd go with that but Ferelden still had an impressive amount of military power.

Wonderful cannon fodder to keep the darksoawn busy. 

It had Eamon's forces, Logain's forces, the mages, Dwarves, and Elves.

Technically, the elves and dwarves are not part of Ferelden. It just so happens that there are Dalish clans nearby, and that Orzammar has an obligation to help. 

More importantly, Orzammar is at the border with Orlais. There's no reason for them not to help the actually useful army. 

The Blight has just started, it only took the south there are still resouces to fight the Blight in Ferelden. Blights last for centuries if we just allowed the country to fall to the darkspawn then all we've done is given them a foothold in Thedas that will take centuries to put down.

No, if we're talking about OOC information, staying in Ferelden was stupid beyond belief. Only two characters could kill the archdemon at that point: Alistar and the Warden. If either dies, Ferelden is lost. 

And defeating the Blight has nothing to do with #s. It's all about killing the archdemon. 

Orlais wasn't going to attack the Blight they were just holding the line at their borders which meant the Darkspawn could focus on making more Broodmothers and increasing their size.

Which, of course, doesn't matter. The archdemon is what matters. And you would have known that if you had gone to Orlais. 

Fighting the Blight in Fereldent makes the most sense, worst case scenario we would have lost but we would have caused enough damage to the darkspawn forces that it would give the other Wardens a better chance at ending the Blight now rather then centuries latter.

No, it wouldn't have. It makes zero difference between this scenario and just letting the darkpawn take their sweet time killing everything while Orlais prepares to hunt down the archdemon. 

It makes no sense to throw away resources in a war and even less sense to allow the enemy to take a massive amount of terriotory unopposed.

Territory is irrelevant. Killing the archdemon is what matters. 

As for our character, he didn't have our name but we were the only Ferelden Wardens in the country. Then we do what you want and abandon the country. Someone shows up and says "Hey you killed the king of Ferelden and then you abandoned the entire country to be slaughtered." Then we get killed for betraying the order by not fighting the Blight when we had the chance.

No, we get a medal, when the First Warden goes "Great job telling us about the blight! A single country is irrelevant compared to the damage that a blight does. Hey, here's a secret: all the armies in the world couldn't have killed Dumat without being GWs. Good thing you two left and told us, becuase you were completely useless otherwise!"

[henkez3]

One thing I had a problem with in regards to DA2 was the fact that some BioWare employee confirmed that there were finishing moves. He wasn't lying, there was a finish move, one. The one that sometimes activates when you kill an ogre with crushing prison.

BioWare should be careful with these half-truths with DA3.

[BubbleDncr]

I didn't have a problem with not getting to choose who lived or died between Bethany and Carver. It helped make my playthroughs different.

But also - the scenario would have to be completely redesigned to have it be a result of Hawke's decisions. More of an, "Oh no, both of them are in trouble! Who do I save?" type thing. Which tends to feel very forced and video-gamey to me. Whereas I find it believable that, based on whether or not Hawke is a normal person or a mage, that Bethany and Carver would act differently in that situation. For instance, it makes sense that a Bethany whose sister was also a mage, would be more confident in herself, as she wouldn't have been the odd one out who was blamed for everything ever since dad died. So thus she would go confront the ogre herself - but in a world where she was the only mage in the family, she would be more hesitant, and Carver would be the confident one to rush into danger instead.

[Heimdall]

I just think there should have been a much expanded intro taking place in Lothering after or before the Warden arrived and left. A Mage Hawke can go to the village to look for Carver amongst the stragglers from Ostagar and Warrior/Rogue Hawke can be one of those stragglers with Carver. Have a subplot about getting supplies to flee, I don't know, something that gives you some time to interact with both characters, especially the one that dies. That would have made the sibling death much more palatable to me.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 04 février 2013 - 07:04 .

[Rhiens VI]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

Now when I frist heard that you weren't going to have any
control over which of your siblings would live and die that made me
worried

Yeah, I was also very frustrated that I couldn't control the weather, or make myself the supreme ruler of Kirkwall. I am worried that I wouldn't be able to ascend to godhood in DA3

we have a game
that is going to be more like DA2 then DAO.

Anything wrong with that?

Modifié par Rhiens VI, 04 février 2013 - 07:29 .

[TheRealJayDee]

In Exile wrote...

DA:O railroads you. I don't mind having this argument. Put you got on a pedestal and talked about how you're stuck in Kirkwall. You're just as stuck in Ferelden. You've invented lots of reasons to justify staying in Ferelden. Good for you. There are lots of reasons to abandon it. We can do the same for Kirkwall. 

Ferelden is irrelevant. The Blight is all that matters. The Grey Wardens, and the rest of the realms, have to be rallied. This is, Word of God, what Duncan would have done had he lived past Ostagar. 

[snip]

No, if we're talking about OOC information, staying in Ferelden was stupid beyond belief. Only two characters could kill the archdemon at that point: Alistar and the Warden. If either dies, Ferelden is lost. 

And defeating the Blight has nothing to do with #s. It's all about killing the archdemon. 

Orlais wasn't going to attack the Blight they were just holding the line at their borders which meant the Darkspawn could focus on making more Broodmothers and increasing their size.

Which, of course, doesn't matter. The archdemon is what matters. And you would have known that if you had gone to Orlais. 

Fighting the Blight in Fereldent makes the most sense, worst case scenario we would have lost but we would have caused enough damage to the darkspawn forces that it would give the other Wardens a better chance at ending the Blight now rather then centuries latter.

No, it wouldn't have. It makes zero difference between this scenario and just letting the darkpawn take their sweet time killing everything while Orlais prepares to hunt down the archdemon. 

[snip]

No, we get a medal, when the First Warden goes "Great job telling us about the blight! A single country is irrelevant compared to the damage that a blight does. Hey, here's a secret: all the armies in the world couldn't have killed Dumat without being GWs. Good thing you two left and told us, becuase you were completely useless otherwise!"

Yeah, sorry, I don't agree. One case is abandoning and basically sacrificing your whole country in order to warn people of something they should likely become aware of by themselves rather soon, rather than taking a chance of taking matters into you own hands and maybe saving, again, everyone you know. I don't know about your characters, but I found it rather plausible to assume mine wouldn't be willing to sacrifice Ferelden. Everything based on informations they didn't have at that time, mind you.

Kirkwall was all around stupid from the start because of the inevitable apostate sibling, and after you learned that you have no home or money waiting for you at all it was just insane staying there.

[Rhiens VI]

TheRealJayDee wrote...

Yeah, sorry, I don't agree. One case is abandoning and basically sacrificing your whole country in order to warn people of something they should likely become aware of by themselves rather soon, rather than taking a chance of taking matters into you own hands and maybe saving, again, everyone you know. I don't know about your characters, but I found it rather plausible to assume mine wouldn't be willing to sacrifice Ferelden.

Abandoning Ferelden and seeking aid in Orlais makes as much sense, from a cold practical point of view. What if my character is a cold calculating bastard who's not too eager to die for a seemingly lost cause? He didn't conscript for Gray Wardens out of of the greatness of his heart, he was forced by the circumstances. The game does not allow him to do what he'd want to do.

Kirkwall was all around stupid from the start because of the inevitable apostate sibling, and after you learned that you have no home or money waiting for you at all it was just insane staying there.

I see way more practical reasons for Hawke to stay in Kirkwall, than for Warden to stay in Ferelden.

Modifié par Rhiens VI, 04 février 2013 - 07:54 .

[Thomas Andresen]

TheRealJayDee wrote...

Yeah, sorry, I don't agree. One case is abandoning and basically sacrificing your whole country in order to warn people of something they should likely become aware of by themselves rather soon, rather than taking a chance of taking matters into you own hands and maybe saving, again, everyone you know. I don't know about your characters, but I found it rather plausible to assume mine wouldn't be willing to sacrifice Ferelden. Everything based on informations they didn't have at that time, mind you.

There are compelling reasons to abandon Ferelden to it's fate and seek out the Wardens in Orlais, Loghain being one of them, just as there area compelling reasons to stay and figure out a way to end the blight with what you have, though most of them has to do with principle and morality. The game assumes that you will want to do what you can to save Ferelden from the blight and from itself, and forces you along that path, and that can easily qualify as "railroading", which I believe was InExile's point.

[TheRealJayDee]

Rhiens VI wrote...

I see way more practical reasons for Hawke to stay in Kirkwall, than for Warden to stay in Ferelden.

Okay then. If it wouldn't derail the thread I'd love to hear about them, but for now let's just leave it at that.

Besides, I never said that DA:O didn't railroad the player, it certainly did. Just based on my personal experience it did a better job. I played a few vastly different characters that had no problem at all going along with the general path Bioware had intended. Already my first Hawke regularly ended up without any real motivation to continue the story.

[Cutlasskiwi]

ianvillan wrote...

How would being a noble protect from the templars, why would a mage willingly stay in a place where the fade is thin which makes demon possession more likely, if after making a fortune from the deep roads would you stay in a place where the tensions between the mages and templars is increasing, why would you stay in aplace where mages turn into demons in huge numbers.

I had the same problem with DAO. Why does the Warden stay in Ferelden to carry out a suicide mission instead of rallying the rest of the Wardens in Orlais? 

[ISpeakTheTruth]

The military strategy of some people is amazing. It makes no sense to abandon Ferelden espcially when it is still able to effectively fight because if it falls then the Darkspawn are free to multiply without out of control. Yes the Archdemon is the most important thing but how do you expect to attack it when it now has an entire country full of Darkspawn between you and it?

As for the great plan of leaving Ferelden so you can 'rally' Orlais... they don't need rallied they already know there's a Blight. The Wardens know that when Darkspawn mass on the surface and the deep roads empy it means a Blight so your eye witness testimony isn't required that's why they've already formed a line at the border because they aren't blind. So congradulations you've allowed the Blight to spread unchecked throughout an entire country allowing it increase in strength all so you can tell the Orlesians something thaty they alread know... Yay!

Striking the Blight now when its numbers are low is the best shot that we had of ending the Blight before it had a chance to start. If we fail at least we weakened the army. Your plan would doom Thedas to decades if not centuries of war because now they have a breeding center the size of a country.

[addiction21]

I am very amused at those that learned their "military strategy" from video games. Feralden is in the midst of a civil war. It is a clan of Dalish elves not a whole lot there and the Dwarfs have their issues. Redcliff is besieged the mages are about to be annulled and Loghain does not even believe its a blight.
The Warden saves the day because it is a video game and that is the story being told.

Oh and those low numbers



And by the battle of Denerim at least half the southern portion of Fereldan is over run. The whole time the Darkspawn have been increasing in numbers.

Again video game, hero and plot armor. That's why the Warden can run around doing everything.

Modifié par addiction21, 04 février 2013 - 10:14 .

[ISpeakTheTruth]

All of those issues the Warden is unaware of until he or she arrives. Even though all the allies come with a catch 22 doesn't mean that they aren't assest that can be used. It also doesn't matter if Loghain believes its a Blight or not he sees the Darkspawn as a threat and he's doing his all to get ready for it (Like selling elves to pay for the expansion of the army).

Yes the numbers we see attacking Ostagar are large but that number is a shadow of what the Darkspawn numbers would be if they were given time to capture women on a large scale and turn them into broodmothers. How do you think the Darkspawn are able to fight wars that last for centuries? Once they get a hold on a country they turn that country into a breeding center for their forces. The reason the Darkspawn aren't that great of number right now is because they have limited broodmothers because Darkspawn don't come to the surface unless its a blight so they are limited to whatever females they can find in the Deep Roads.

Attacking with any force is better then just giving the country freely to the Blight. Also the Wardens story takes place within a year so it took about a year for the the Darkspawn to get as far as the battle of Denerim which means Fereldan was no where near the stage of abandoning it.

[Pauravi]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

As some of you may remember when DA2 was about to be released they told us that the class Hawke starts as would automatically determine which of his/her siblings would survive and die. Now when I frist heard that you weren't going to have any control over which of your siblings would live and die that made me worried that the entire game would severly lack choice and as we know DA2 was a game that had virtually no real choice in it at all.

Now I think that when information is being given to us we should be very aware of any information that say we'd be given a situation that is similar to what happened with Carver and Bethany. If we have a situation that is similar then I'd say it might be fair to assume we have a game that is going to be more like DA2 then DAO.

I think you're an alarmist who is worried about things that I don't care about and whose opinions I disagree with on their face.

BioWare is designing the story, not you.  You're becoming upset over not getting to determine an arbitrary part of one of the happenstances in the storyline.  You may as well get upset at not being able to prevent the whole thing with Hawke's mom.  It's just part of the story.  As much as I'd have liked to play a mage and still keep Bethany around (mostly because Carver is a pouty, petulant little sh*t), it is not my story to tell and they had good reasons for doing it.  Players SHOULDN'T have control over every given part of the story that they may or may not like.

I also disagree with the idea that there was no choice in DA2.  The fact of the matter is that in real life, you cannot control what other people do, you can only control yourself.  The fact that you can't prevent Isabella or Anders from doing what they do doesn't mean that you don't have a choice, it means that those characters had their own motivations.  That's good -- and realistic -- character writing.  Not every character should conform around the player.  Certain events are fated to happen by the people who perpetrate them.  But if you regard the events themselves as more important than the way your character acts before and after them -- such as how you treat Anders and the quality and tenor of your relationship with him -- then I disagree fundamentally with your idea of good story and character writing, and what the idea of choice means.  It means that you get to conduct the actions of your character however you like, not that you get to direct the story in whatever direction you like.

Suffice to say, I think your concerns and assumptions are not of any practical import, nor do I necessarily care about the game being closer to DAO in any particular way aside from having a bigger world to get around in.

[Pauravi]

krul2k wrote...

in this age, id rather have a game more like da2 than dao, in a perfect world id rather have dao story that engrossed me an its companions who i loved with da2's combat

Actually on the whole I thought DA2s characters were deeper.
Don't get me wrong, I loved the DAO characters.  But they didn't seem as much like independent agents as the DA2 characters -- they all revolved around the Warden so much.  I felt like there was more banter in DA2 as well, which felt more natural.  DAO's interaction with your companions was, for the most part, very segregated from the rest of the game with that whole "going back to camp to chat" mechanic.  Conversations sometimes felt more like a minigame I had to remember to get through every once in a while.  Not that DA2 was a lot different in that regard, but I thought the character writing in DA2 was superb.

Personally I think DA2 was pretty excellent, except for the glaring thing about the small number of repetitive areas.  If DA3 is more like DA2, but with a lot more places to see and people to meet, and more choices of equipment for companions (I really did like them each having their own style though), then I'll be happy.  It'd also be cool if companions approached you for conversation when it was poignant, or at least let you know when they have something to say, instead of you just having to remember to tap them on the shoulder after every little quest.

Oh, and slow down the combat a bit.  DAO was ridiculously slow... DA2 was more exciting but the combat lacked "heft", especially the 2-handed weapons.  The speed you'd swing that giant sword, and make enemies fall apart like they were put in a blender, it all seemed a bit over-the-top cartoonish.  I still enjoyed it, but something more exciting than DAO, but more heavy, gritty, and realistic than DA2 would be nice I think.