30 réponses à ce sujet

[ColorsFade]

Recently I re-purchased NWN2 Platinum (lost my copy in a move years ago) and went about planning my character for the OC on the NWN Character Builder site (awesome site, BTW). In planning that character, I settled on the Kukri as my weapon of choice, figuring the improved critical range would make a significant difference in damage output.

Then I started to play the game. Kukri's aren't as easy to come by early on as a Short Sword is, and since I don't take Weapon Focus until level 12, it didn't matter much, and so I played the first few levels with Short Swords. Additionally, when I finally got my hands on a Kukri, I felt disappointed in the damage output and felt they didn't look as cool in my character's hands (oh vanity). So, being a professional software developer, I set about writing a program to test these two weapons and get some real data. 

In addition to the straight-up damage comparison between the two weapons, I also wanted to measure the impact of Power Critical. Bob the Builder had left a comment on another build of mine saying it wasn't a very good Feat. But I wanted to know what the numbers said. 

I thought some folks here might be interested in the results of this number crunching experiment. 

Methodology: I wrote a program to implement the 3.5 rules for hits, threats and criticals. I considered two weapons only: the Kukri and the Short Sword, and treated both as Keen for the purposes of the simulation. Then I ran the calculator to simulate thousands of "attacks" against opponents of various AC (I considered 20 AC = Low, 27 AC = Medium, 35 AC = High). The damage from these attacks was tracked, along with statistics like "is it a critical hit"? "did Power Critical matter?" No attack bonuses were considered at all, because they weren't going to change the results (variying the AC has the same effect and was enough to consider variations in effects). When a D20 was rolled, it's value was used for both weapons (to eliminate variability in randomness between rolls).

Here's what I discovered. 

First up, Power Critical Results

The result of the Power Critical is that it's impact becomes greater the higher the AC of your opponent. The lower the AC, the less of an impact this Feat has, because it's easier to confirm a threat against your opponent's low AC. However, the higher the AC of your opponent, the more this Feat comes into play. And that's a good thing. 

Against low AC, I saw a range of 12% - 18% increase in criticals. Still not insignificant, but maybe not enough to merit taking the feat early in your character's life. 

Against medium AC opponents, I saw consistent 25%-27% increase in criticals. This is significant, IMO, and it's at this point that it becomes worthwhile to take the Feat. 

Against very high AC, I saw 50% increase in criticals. You're missing a lot against high AC, so when you do hit, having it be a critical is important. 

If you think about the way the Feat works, I think these results make sense. 

Kukri vs. Short Sword Results

The bottom line here is that the less damage bonus you have (via STR, Feats, etc.) the more the Short Sword outshines the Kukri by a wide margin. But the more damange bonuses you have, the more the Kukri catches up, because it is causing more critical hits, after all, and the margin of difference between these two weapons shrinks.

As an example: Based on the raw stats (1-4 vs 1-6 damage range), a Short Sword does 33% more damage. But let's say you have a +4 bonus due to STR, and +1 for some Feat. The Short Sword now only does 18% more damage.  

With absolutely no damage bonus at all, the Short Sword does between 25% and 30% more damage over time in simulation (which is what we'd expect, given what we just stated). The Kukri hits critically as much as 40% more often, however, but with its lower damage it can't catch the Short Sword. 

However, as you add damage bonus to the Kukri, it catches up. Even a small damage bonus, like +2 (to both weapons), results in only an 18% increase in damage over time for the Short Sword. Once the damage bonus reaches +10, the Kukri pretty much catches up to the Short Sword, because the difference in damage between the two is small, and the Kukri is hitting critically more often.

From that point on, the damage is pretty much the same between the two. Due to randomness in damage rolls, you can run several hundred attacks and discover that sometimes the Kukri does more damage, and sometimes the Short Sword does more damange. But over a large enough sample size, they are pretty much the same. 

So, if you're like me when I was building my character, and you're thinking about taking the Kurki as your main weapon with the idea that you are going to do significantly more damage due to increased criticals, think again. Yes, you will hit critically more often, but overall you're not going to do more damage than a Short Sword. Maybe toward the endgame you might do 5% more damage - maybe. 

All of this made me feel much better about choosing the Short Sword because it "looks better" to me, LOL... And knowing I wasn't sacrificing a ton of damage by not using the Kukris. 

[I_Raps]

I've seen these analyses for ... ever (how long has the game engine been around?), and one thing never gets considered - so I don't blame you specifically. But maybe since you have your little sim up and ready, you might want to check it out.

The game isn't about accumulated damage - it's about kills. Weapon A does 15 every turn, weapon B does 20 or 5 - A will outshine B easily on overall damage over time, but B will be dropping people faster who happen to have 16-20 HP.  Weapon A will be leaving 10+ extra damage on the floor each time against those guys.   Add in extra attacks due to kills (cleave, great cleave, etc.), and overcoming DR, and high-crit weapons become much more awesome.

Then you throw in Vorpal - which in this game happens on any crit, not just a 20 - and it becomes ridiculous.

Trust me. Though I haven't crunched numbers, I've played hundreds of characters and high-crit weapons shine.

[p.s.]  Of course, that doesn't do much for your kukri - your base damage there is just too small to take advantage of the kill factor - but at a certain point you'll be mowing through the riffraff like a thresher.

[p.p.s.]  And of course, comparing a kukri to a short sword is unfair to begin with.  You should compare it to a dagger.

Modifié par I_Raps, 03 février 2013 - 05:38 .

[Arkalezth]

A character with 10 STR and no crittable damage (or a character who only fights against crit immunes) might find the extended crit range of a weapon irrelevant, and hence, go for the higher base damage. A character with +20 or +30 extra damage won't give a damn about a point more or less and go for the best crit range.

Personally, I prefer not to focus on a specific weapon and just use whatever I feel like at each moment. And yes, kukris are fugly... but short swords are too. Some of the models, at least.

Modifié par Arkalezth, 03 février 2013 - 06:18 .

[Dann-J]

I have my own spreadsheet that ranks average weapon damage with and without certain feats (including Weapon Master feats). Short swords always rank just above kukris - although the difference isn't huge. Both weapon types are near the bottom of the rankings though (daggers are always worse).

[Happycrow]

When going with finessable stuff, I always found I got good mileage out of the hatchet. It crits less often, but tends to do better against no-thrustie types, and when you do hit, it was noticeable -- especially since I tended to use them with ranger characters for whom the rp fit and IFE on a x3 crit hurts a lot.

No idea how the whole thing works out mathematically - I'd have to go to town on an xl sheet, so it may be lackluster.

[Dann-J]

I added the handaxe into my own spreadsheet. Without any additional feats to augment them, and assuming no strength bonus, the average amount of damage shortswords and handaxes do are exactly the same. The handaxe does more damage on a critical hit, but only does so half as often as a shortsword.

Shortsword-----Ave.NonCrit.Dmg 3.5-----Ave.Crit.Dmg 7.0-----Chance Crit 0.10 (10%)
Handaxe--------Ave.NonCrit.Dmg 3.5-----Ave.Crit.Dmg 10.5----Chance Crit 0.05 (5%)

Shortsword = (0.9 x 3.5) + (0.1 x 7.0) = 3.85
Handaxe = (0.95 x 3.5) + (0.05 x 10.5) = 3.85

That changes once you start taking feats that improve critical hits though. For a level 7 Weapon master with Improved Critical, Increased Multiplier and Ki Critical, the handaxe is actually a better choice than a rapier or scimitar (but not quite as good as a longsword). So a duel-wielding level 7 WM with a pair of handaxes should kick (or rather, slash) arse.

[Arkalezth]

Actually, dual wielding WMs tend to be worse than single weapon ones, as their crittable damage is usually lower. There are ways around it, but the class is rarely worth the investment in those cases.

[Dann-J]

That's true of weapon masters who use shields as well. That 1.5x strength bonus for using weapons two-handed can make quite a difference. A WM 7 with a katana and a heavy shield is about equivalent to a WM 7 using a shortsword two-handed (assuming 18 strength). The single shortsword actually becomes the better option v's katana-and-shield at 20 strength or higher. In my own spreadsheet, it's fascinating to see how the weapon ranks change as you increase strength and enhancement bonuses, and by comparing two-handed to one-handed wields.

Does anyone know if tiny weapons benefit from a strength bonus in NWN2? Practically speaking you couldn' t possible wield them effectively two-handed.

[nicethugbert]

Some one at the old Epic Character Builders Part Deux guild did a mathematical analysis about this. I have the link for the old guild but it is broken: http://nwn.bioware.c...tml?forum=26365

The result is that the larger your bonuses are, the less the weapon's damage matters and the more that 20/x3 or 18-20/x2 does matter. He calculated the point at which this happens.  It also turns out that the long sword is a good weapon on average.

But, I don't have that info anymore.

Modifié par nicethugbert, 08 février 2013 - 04:38 .

[Arkalezth]

@DannJ: What I mean is that a typical dual wielder will have a DEX focus and low(ish) STR, and hence, low damage that multiply in criticals, making the whole WM class kinda crappy (this build's description pretty much sums it up). That's not a problem with a STR based sword and shield user, though obviously, a two-hander with Improved Power Attack will do more damage.

Only small races can 2-hand small weapons. No one can 2-hand tiny ones.

@NTB: Try here.

Modifié par Arkalezth, 08 février 2013 - 01:59 .

[Happycrow]

DannJ: yep, I figured size-of-crit vs frequency-of-crit would be the issue - interesting to see that not only is it a wash, but EXACTLY a wash, though. Throw in a level of ranger and the right IFE opponent, and that could really hurt.

[Luminus]

Different weapons are made for different builds.

Daggers are made for shorty Rogues. (Gnome, Halfling)
Short Swords are made for medium Rogues.
Kukris are made for small and medium Rogues that have Martial Weapons.
Rapiers are made for Rogues or finesse melee builds that don't dual-wield (yet and low levels)
Scimitars are identical to Rapiers but they're made for STR builds with a shield. (Typical Druid with 14 STR for example). And they can be used with two hands.

Of course some weapons would be better in different cases and different builds.
A Kukri is better than a Sword Sword but you need Martial Weapons (usually by dipping in Swashbuckler) or going with Ranger.
They're also rarer.

Also don't forget that criticals multiply all the damage of a weapon.
If you have a Kukri (18-20x2) with 1d6 fire damage, then on a critical, you can do potentially 12 fire damage instead of 6. It's not important only for STR builds.

Also Sneak Attack is not multiplied since it's a class feature, not a weapon property.

Modifié par Luminus, 09 février 2013 - 01:56 .

[painofdungeoneternal]

Per the official rules, Bonus dice are never multiplied on a critical hit. Only static bonuses are multiplied. The fire damage is most likely the wrong type, and the engine is thinking it's a static bonus, remember fixing this once by changing types but this has been a longstanding engine problem.

This is from the players handbook (page 134):
"Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage, such as that dealt by a sneak attack or the special ability of a flaming sword, are never multiplied."

This page has a lot of info on this sort of thing:
http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Damage_roll

There are many weapons that have no point - ie a heavy crossbow. Some weapons that are not so good but are the best a given class can get ( ie sorcerors can get a mace ).

The PW I had graphed the distributions of weapons actually was used by players and found quite a few weapons just were never taken. It was an action PW filled with players who knew all the math of what it takes to win, and measuring the aggregate choices of this group is a good way to measure balance. The head DM then adjusted these weapons damage, crits, and moved a few from exotic to normal, and from normal to exotic ( they weren't being used so it had no affect on the players ). After this the distribution of weapons used became a lot more evenly distributed with players suddenly choosing these weapons.

Basically I am posting these adjusted damage stats for these unused weapons so you can compare what was changed, might make people see what the problems are in the default weapon selections ( I think Sea of Dragons adopted some of these changes as well )

#Difference Summary:
use: baseitems.2da

# Row 4 Heavy_Flail
SetRow: 4
set: currow, label to Heavy_Flail
set: currow, CritThreat to 2
set: currow, BaseCost to 10

# Row 6 heavycrossbow
SetRow: 6
set: currow, NumDice to 2
set: currow, DieToRoll to 6
set: currow, CritThreat to 1
set: currow, CritHitMult to 4

# Row 7 lightcrossbow
SetRow: 7
set: currow, NumDice to 2
set: currow, DieToRoll to 4
set: currow, CritHitMult to 3

# Row 8 longbow
SetRow: 8
set: currow, NumDice to 2
set: currow, DieToRoll to 4
set: currow, CritHitMult to 4

# Row 10 halberd
SetRow: 10
set: currow, NumDice to 3
set: currow, DieToRoll to 3
set: currow, CritThreat to 3
set: currow, CritHitMult to 2

# Row 11 shortbow
SetRow: 11
set: currow, NumDice to 2
set: currow, DieToRoll to 4
set: currow, CritThreat to 3
set: currow, CritHitMult to 2

# Row 13 greatsword
SetRow: 13
set: currow, NumDice to 4
set: currow, DieToRoll to 3

# Row 18 greataxe
SetRow: 18
set: currow, NumDice to 4
set: currow, DieToRoll to 3

# Row 31 dart
SetRow: 31
set: currow, DieToRoll to 8
set: currow, CritThreat to 2
set: currow, CritHitMult to 3
set: currow, Stacking to 500
set: currow, ItemMultiplier to 0.0008

# Row 50 quarterstaff
SetRow: 50
set: currow, NumDice to 2
set: currow, CritHitMult to 3

# Row 59 shuriken
SetRow: 59
set: currow, CritThreat to 3
set: currow, Stacking to 500
set: currow, ItemMultiplier to 0.0008

# Row 61 sling
SetRow: 61
set: currow, NumDice to 2
set: currow, CritHitMult to 4

# Row 63 throwingaxe
SetRow: 63
set: currow, NumDice to 2
set: currow, DieToRoll to 4
set: currow, CritHitMult to 4
set: currow, Stacking to 500
set: currow, ItemMultiplier to 0.0008

# Row 116 flail
SetRow: 116
set: currow, WeaponType to 2
set: currow, BaseCost to 8
set: currow, InvSoundType to 11

# Row 119 spear
SetRow: 119
set: currow, DieToRoll to 12

# Row 120 greatclub
SetRow: 120
set: currow, NumDice to 3
set: currow, DieToRoll to 3
set: currow, CritHitMult to 4

# Row 126 warmace
SetRow: 126
set: currow, CritThreat to 3

[Arkalezth]

Right, 1d6 fire shouldn't multiply. Are you (Pain) saying that fire damage (as opposed to other elements) in concrete is bugged and does multiply? I'm not sure I understood your meaning.

I played on Sea of Dragons some time ago, and their crossbows were buffed to 1d12 damage or so.

[Lugaid of the Red Stripes]

Isn't the extra range on a heavy crossbow significant?

Also, I wonder what changes could be made to custom weapons or module design to make the different base types more interesting, or give the player a good reason to try out different things. In particular, weapon reach doesn't seem to matter much, and with damage resistance bugged, neither does the whole piercing/slashing/bludgeoning distinction.

Parry is another potential source of interesting differentiation that never quite panned out. An off-hand dagger (main-guarde) should provide some sort of bonus, some weapons (rapier, spear, double-enders) should give a bonus to riposte, and other weapons (flails, clubs, maces) should break through parries.

Any ideas about how to fake these distinctions in a module?

[Arkalezth]

AFAIK, weapon reach is simply inexistant, no matter if you're using a dagger or a halberd. No idea about crossbow's range. The problem with crossbows is that they don't get extra attacks as bows do. You need an extra feat (Rapid Reload) for a second attack, and I don't remember if Rapid Shot works with them at all... Anyway, bows are just better, except maybe at very low levels.

Same for Parry. It blocks (and hence counter attacks) a max of 3 attacks per round. So it may have some use early on, but as soon as you get some levels, it actually becomes counter-productive.

How is damage resistance bugged? It works correctly when an enemy is resistant to a particular damage type. Skeletons for example, they're easier to kill with a mace than with a rapier.

[Lugaid of the Red Stripes]

I thought the item property damage resistance was bugged, along with the dual damage types.

The crossbow's inferiority to a longbow or shortbow is balanced out by the proficiency feats, simple vs. martial/elf, so it makes sense to have both types. From the manual, the ranges are 120ft for a heavy crossbow, 80ft for a light, 100ft for a longbow, and 60ft for a shortbow. For reference, 120ft is about the width one megatile in an exterior area, while each interior tile is about 30ft across. In some situations, that extra 40ft of range could really make a difference.

[Arkalezth]

If the manual says so... it's likely wrong. Seriously, I don't know, but even if ranges work as you say, I don't think it really makes a difference in practice. And, well, yes, not everyone can use a bow, but still, why don't crossbows have a natural APR progression, as every other weapon in the game? Even darts or slings are better once you get a few levels.

Damage reduction works fine in items. Maybe you're thinking of spell resistance, which only works once (and I've noticed the same with SR-granting shapeshifting). I can't vouch for dual damage weapons (such as halberd or scythe) because I rarely use those, but I don't recall reading about any related bug.

[Lugaid of the Red Stripes]

Damage resistance, like the Archer's belt, is bugged. It works fine for different elemental types, but not different physical types of damage, like slashing/piercing/bludgeoning.

[Arkalezth]

If the wiki's right, it doesn't work, but you get the message in the combat log as if it had worked... That's weird. The combat log is usually correct in my experience.

I played for a long time on a PW (no Kaedrin's pack or any kind of DR fix) where armour had DR instead of AC, and it seemed to work. I kinda doubt so, but maybe I was just getting the message... I had to uninstall the game the other day so I can't test it right now, but I'll have to take a look when I reinstall it.

[painofdungeoneternal]

Range in game is always short - never seen a spawn at long range, nor even the AI work at longer ranges, the spawns show up under your feet ( or the cutscene forces you to start with them already hugging you )

The damage whether its added only, or multiplied is not determined by if it's an additional die or set amount, it's the type of property on the weapon. ( vague memory as to the specifics, it's not whether it's a given element or amount of damage, its the higher level category of the property itself. ) Yes it often is borked and included, and that is the basis for some builds on the wiki, but it can be fixed by setting up the weapons right. Can't tell you more as the entire documentation and how we fixed it went away with the forums for the PW a few years ago. ( and i don't see the need as the post prior to mine cited it doubling x2 the 1d6 damage so it could do 12 damage )

Always rely on the combat log, and review the change in victims hit points - good luck figuring it out unless you have two players cooperating so you can see either side of the combat log, and perhaps a DM monitoring. The character sheet, the combat log messages, everything is a separate task which may or may not have been done properly. Some damage reductions also bork up critical hit immunity for example, not sure if that was fixed, my memory is quite faulty, but i do remember it borking up the entire combat for who wore it. The sacred fist flaming thing was also quite borked, hmm need to see if i can touch that via nwnx when i get back into that. At least spells are all in script we can touch or sidestep, just wish combat was as easy.

Problem is the engine is coded in bits and bytes, while we think in D&D terms, instead of the code following the D&D logic, its coded with lots of ifs/thens, each completely unknowing of any of the others. It can be redone to follow D&D logic, to mark spells for example with descriptors, then the game rules which say all fire descriptor spells damage is maximized in the plane of fire, but without such, it means adding an if/then to every spell one at a time, and guess what - i can guarantee you cannot find every one. Combat/buffs/etc, they only seem to follow our logic, the bugs we see are due to them following their true logic of bits and bytes, with exceptions after exception added to get it to seem like it's following our logic.

Modifié par painofdungeoneternal, 10 février 2013 - 06:14 .

[I_Raps]

Back to the crossbows for a moment ...

All crossbows are infinitely Mighty. That's a major advantage. 

As for the range - yes, you can kill things at long range; maybe some of you should try a Ranger with fast tracking and the Tab and  T keys - clearing an entire area using just the minimap and never seeing an enemy in your actual monitor view is kind of the essence of any ranged type character.  Even the spawn-on-top-of-you creatures can be sent away with Fear or War Cry or any blinding.  That said, though, I don't know that crossbows make any difference for that compared to bows/slings.

Lastly, yes you can Rapid Fire crossbows - and Manyshot them - if you also have Rapid Reload; the number of shots per round/manyshot is limited with a heavy crossbow, though.

Modifié par I_Raps, 10 février 2013 - 06:49 .

[painofdungeoneternal]

If we were doing PVP, and you had a guy with a crossbow, and I had a equal build with a bow, well I don't think you would think it was a fair fight, ( assuming you don't think i was cheating ).

Yes there are feats for crossbows, just there is a lot more for bows, and a lot more options for what you can use with bows, which include classes geared for them, and it's generally the little details, and i got my rear end handed to me multiple times by bowmen, never remember being killed by a crossbow. ( and those players would have loved to do it just to show off they could do it )

Sling is actually far more used in powerbuilds than you'd realize, far more useful than a crossbow ( and the best PVP builds tended to love them ). Light Crossbow is of some use, but heavy crossbow has no real purpose.

[Thorsson64]

DannJ wrote...

I added the handaxe into my own spreadsheet. Without any additional feats to augment them, and assuming no strength bonus, the average amount of damage shortswords and handaxes do are exactly the same. The handaxe does more damage on a critical hit, but only does so half as often as a shortsword.

Shortsword-----Ave.NonCrit.Dmg 3.5-----Ave.Crit.Dmg 7.0-----Chance Crit 0.10 (10%)
Handaxe--------Ave.NonCrit.Dmg 3.5-----Ave.Crit.Dmg 10.5----Chance Crit 0.05 (5%)

Shortsword = (0.9 x 3.5) + (0.1 x 7.0) = 3.85
Handaxe = (0.95 x 3.5) + (0.05 x 10.5) = 3.85

That changes once you start taking feats that improve critical hits though. For a level 7 Weapon master with Improved Critical, Increased Multiplier and Ki Critical, the handaxe is actually a better choice than a rapier or scimitar (but not quite as good as a longsword). So a duel-wielding level 7 WM with a pair of handaxes should kick (or rather, slash) arse.

Um no. The Handaxe will Crit @ 17-20 x4. The Scimitar/Rapier/Kukri Crit @ 13-20 x3. The only time the handaxe will be superior is if you simply don't have enough AB to confirm crits in the 13-16 range.

The Shortsword will Crit 15-20 x3; it too will only outperform the Kukri if you either have very little crittable damage or have trouble confirming hits with 13-14. As a for instance if you have +4Str damage and EWS a Kukri will still (just) outdamage a Shortsword if your opponent's AC is 10 more than your AB.

WMs generally want to use high crit weapons, and so does anyone who does a lot of damage, like EDM.

[Thorsson64]

I_Raps wrote...

Back to the crossbows for a moment ...

All crossbows are infinitely Mighty. That's a major advantage. 

As for the range - yes, you can kill things at long range; maybe some of you should try a Ranger with fast tracking and the Tab and  T keys - clearing an entire area using just the minimap and never seeing an enemy in your actual monitor view is kind of the essence of any ranged type character.  Even the spawn-on-top-of-you creatures can be sent away with Fear or War Cry or any blinding.  That said, though, I don't know that crossbows make any difference for that compared to bows/slings.

Lastly, yes you can Rapid Fire crossbows - and Manyshot them - if you also have Rapid Reload; the number of shots per round/manyshot is limited with a heavy crossbow, though.

Number of attacks per round is limited with all xbows. And it's limited to 3 unless you Haste when it gets to 4. Bows can get 7 or 8 with Haste.

That said, if you get Kaedrin's pack and take Xbow Sniper then you are very strong pre-Epic.