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Bug/Balance Fix Priority: Updated for Lamentations.


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#1
JaimasOfRaxis

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In an earlier thread in which I had with Bryan Johnson, I mentioned that there is a prevailing attitude across many communities that BioWare's apparent incapacity/unwillingness/inability (depending on whom you asked) to deal with major issues in a timely fashion was feeding a massive groundswell of negativity that  did not bode well for the metagame writ large.

We just had a patch hit, which, unfortunately, did not address a lot of major concerns.

Priority one: Fixing the Missile Glitch.

All right, look. I get that this is an issue that needed fixing, with varying %s of the playerbase using it depending entirely upon platform. However, this patch has had two direct negative effects:

ONE: Disillusioning a lot of the playerbase who thought that it would actually fix things that have been complained about for several months.
TWO: Adding a few hundred gallons of fuel to the ongoing belief that EA/BioWare care far more about their bottom line than about the actual game, and did this solely to ensure further purchases of Magic Space Points.

No one sane will say that Missile Glitching was not an issue. However, to say that this is the most critical issue the game needed to fix is lunacy, when there's an over-abundance of issues that the game still needs fixed. Moreover, these bugs have been widely documented, and anyone saying otherwise deserves naught but mockery. To the patch's credit, it did supposedly fix the Collector Burst/Detonation Resistance issue, but tests are still ongoing. The thing is, there's a bunch of other issues, just off the top of my head, that MP needed a hell of a lot more than the Missile Glitch being fixed. Here's nine of them, just off the top of my head:



The Geth In General. Stunlock everywhere, and the new Drone and Bomber making it even worse. A lot of veteran players I routinely play with will not willingly fight Geth. Many flagrantly game-breaking issues, such as Hunters firing on you when in stasis/netted/knocked down/flying, Pyros having range far longer than their flame suggests, and Missile Troopers firing multi-round bursts, were introduced in a previous patch, and there's been zero indication that any of this will be fixed. As was well-documented by Sirian, the Geth in their current state - virtually unfightable for many classes - is considered a "Low priority" fix. This is unacceptable.

The Collectors in General. The Collectors are overpowered as hell, even with the fact that they now allegedly take normal damage from combos/bursts/explosions now (tests are ongoing). From the Scion, which until an update could reliably three-shot a  maxed-out durability-specced Krogan or Batarian  on BRONZE (and is still ridiculously powerful even now), to the Praetorian (which reliably shoots through walls and cover, and out its ass), to the Collector Captain (Most powerful non-boss enemy in the game; outdamages a Phantom at range when possessed and spawns Seeker Swarms/Plagues), to the Nuclear Suicide Bombers, the Collectors are monumentally overpowered and widely considered a horrifyingly unfun slog to fight, especially for power-reliant classes.
There's also the little issue of this faction habitually causing the PS3 version to crash.

Assault Rifle Inefficiency. As has been extensively brought up by me and several others, Assault Rifles are the least-efficient weapon class in the entire game as far as power-to-size ratio goes, being reliably out-damaged by literally every other weapon class. By and large, the only Assault Rifles worth using are the Ultra-Rares, with only the Argus, Falcon, Revenant, and Striker truly viable on gold and up for most classes. There's a lot of reasons why this is, but the general gist is that most of the SMG family out-performs the rifle family in terms of damage-per-second and power-to-size ratio. Assault Rifles being underpowered has been extensively brought up, but there's never been a hurry to do anything to improve it beyond incrementalization and token tiny buffs. Meanwhile, we can have the Havoc bricked for almost half of its current lifespan in the game from one balance change.

* Weapons Being More Accurate When Hip-Fired Than When Aimed. Hornet, I'm looking at you, though you are hardly the only guilty party in this swirling fustercluck of silliness. Like the infamous negative recoil glitch earlier on, this makes no sense and is a damning indictment of balance-handling as a whole. In this same vein, special nods must be made towards the Collector Rifle for having a scope far too powerful for its intended purpose.

Sniper Rifle No-Scope Penalty. Garbage. Utter, complete garbage. This is what keeps an enormous number of weapons in the game from being gold viable, because a quarter or more of their damage disappears if they ever don't use the scope. This makes absolutely no sense and has been widely complained-about. An accuracy penalty when hip-firing a rifle makes sense, but a damage-penalty actively penalizes anyone using the Indra, Raptor, Incisor, and  Collector Sniper (which is buggy, too, just for good measure).

* The Spawn Issues.
You damn well know what I'm talking about, because everyone playing this game has now seen it. This was not something that occured before Retaliation, and occurs all the time now: Enemies spawning in plain sight and literally on top of players, often synckilling them, especially during objectives. This is a game-breaking bug and was a major responsible party in a lot of my friends who were otherwise a fan of this game leaving for greener pastures.

* Countless class Bugs.
From the Turian Saboteur being bugged to the gills (Sabotage not effecting any of his own powers, for example), to the Quarian Soldier having bugged health/shield levels, to the N7 Shadow's Shadow Strike not working on Atlases for reasons best-described as DUUUUUHHRRRR,  the list on this one goes on for several pages.

* Pet Power Overnerf/Power Issue.
Retaliation brought us a "fix" that removed targetting priority from all "pets," which meant Drones, Turrets, and Decoys. This "fix" had the effects of completely rendering Decoy an all-but-worthless power except against Geth (where it's simply bad as opposed to useless), killing Drone suicide bomber builds, and giving absolutely nothing in return to any of the pet units.
Frankly, ALL of the Pet powers are now underpowered - the Sentry Turret does paltry damage, has poor survivability and usability above bronze, can't fire more than one weapon at once, has 2 ammo choices that are both buggy (AP ammo won't penetrate things; Cryo ammo has a low proc rate and does not give a damage bonus), and doesn't get damage bonuses for target type for its weapon variants (flamethrower doesn't do bonus damage to armor, for example). The Geth Turret is slightly more useful, but the Flamethrower has the same problems the Sentry Turret's do (also doing less damage), the Geth Turret doesn't get bonus damage to armor and the damage is still pathetic (it also fails to use its own version of the Flamethrower), meaning most players use it as a medi-bot. The Drone's main attack is utter, complete trash and has literally no purpose; all of a CQC drone's damage is coming from Shock and Suicide explosions (which are still weak), not its shock weapon. The Rocket Drone fares better in the current metagame, but it, too, is underpowered. All of the pets need improvements, and until this is done, a lot of the Engineers are going to remain outgunned.

* Sync-Kill Issues.
This has been discussed ad infinitum, but there has never, not once, ever been a post from the Devs about sync-kills aside from the "Magnet Hands" glitch. Everyone and then some has complained about the sync-kill issue: They need some level of preventability, some level of toning down, since they are the cause of literally 80% of all party wipes. None of the synckill-causing units, other than the Atlas, obey their own "alleged" sync-kill "rules," with most enemies with them capable of using them the nanosecond you get within range and even through invulnerability and DR frames, including revives and player spawns. There are incidents of disarmed Phantoms synckilling anyway, cases of Banshees "taking themselves off the map" only to reappear next to players in an inescapable telefrag, and cases of Brutes grabbing players out of Biotic Charges and Havoc Strikes.That the only response so far from  an official source has been to mock it has been especially aggravating, especially considering how this issue has been complained about - literally - since before the game came out.



That's nine right there that were significantly more-important to many players than the Missile Glitch being fixed.  Again, I understand that the prioritizing of the Missile Glitch was probably publisher fiat and had little to do with your own decisions, but the game is suffering specifically due to choices like that. In the future, do yourselves a favor and actively look into what the community is complaining about (and I don't mean useless threads like these). The playerbase will thank you (as will I, for taking away things I can no longer complain about).

Thank you, and god bless.



UPDATE ONE: I'd appreciate that certain parties who shall remain nameless keep the vitriol to a minimum from now on. We already had a massive bit of calling-out in which several users here acted extremely childish, which led to a Dev abandoning the thread. I'd like to continue gathering insight and opinions on things, so I encourage you all to elucidate your thoughts.

UPDATE TWO: As has been confirmed multiple times, the Missile Glitch is alive and well, in spite of the patch. I am saddened, because whilst this fact vindicates a lot of what I said in the original post, I really didn't want to be right for that reason. 

Modifié par JaimasOfRaxis, 06 février 2013 - 05:05 .


#2
4ut0b4hn5child27

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can you have more spacing when writing words after words?

#3
JaimasOfRaxis

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As a matter of fact, I can.

Sorry about that. BSN's auto-formatting fails utterly.

Modifié par JaimasOfRaxis, 03 février 2013 - 10:48 .


#4
Swan Killer

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It's been a long time since I said something like this, but I agree with almost every single word. The only exception is, that I don't find the Collectors overpowered as hell. They are hard, but that's it.

Modifié par tivesz, 03 février 2013 - 10:51 .


#5
BridgeBurner

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Phantom damage reduction on host!!!!

Phantom's need to have a cooldown on their damage reduction ability instigated. Currently, phantoms are virtually invincible on host, but the right toughness off host. This needs to change, so all 4 players in a game can deal equal damage to a phantom.

#6
Heldarion

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China called, they want their wall back.

edit: nevermind, much better now.

Modifié par Heldarion, 03 février 2013 - 10:53 .


#7
Qui-Gon Glenn

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Posted Image

Both this adorable kitten and my own damn self approve of this post and this thread.

Well said, hear here!!!

Modifié par Qui-Gon Glenn, 03 février 2013 - 10:59 .


#8
Arctican

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I think this patch was really a shortstop. The real patch fixing some of the well known bugs will probably come out around when the next DLC hits.

#9
Qui-Gon Glenn

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^^^^ also my hope

#10
Blarg

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My eyes. Oh god.

On topic: good points across the board. I would add to it, but I think you've covered everything.

#11
Blarg

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Annomander wrote...

Phantom damage reduction on host!!!!

Phantom's need to have a cooldown on their damage reduction ability instigated. Currently, phantoms are virtually invincible on host, but the right toughness off host. This needs to change, so all 4 players in a game can deal equal damage to a phantom.


Not to mention that Phantoms, Praetorians, and Banshees need to have a much longer cooldown on their bubbles. Especially Praetorians.

#12
Distilled Poison

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I think it's also pretty important to note that Collectors are entirely unplayable above silver on PS3. So at best you have 75% faction playability on PS3. Or 50% if you hate the Geth too.

That, combined with the horrible controls is why I haven't played in months.

#13
Heldarion

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I don't mind the Collectors, they are not nearly as horrible as the Geth and carry-able even if you have 3 complete morons in your team on Gold.

The real problem with Praetorians is not that it reliably shoots its lasers through the cover, it's the fact that it occasionally hits you through cover, and the propensity to graze you if you're using soft cover when one should by no means be ever hit by that damn thing.

Modifié par Heldarion, 03 février 2013 - 11:05 .


#14
Autumnal Skies

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5 stars for you

#15
Filipe Dilly

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PS3 Bug is not fixed. I'm sad.
My only hope is that the "new DLC" will fix some issues. But I dont hold my breath for it. :/

#16
vonSlash

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OP, you raise excellent points about issues that still need fixing, but I question your assumption that any of the listed points were more serious than the missile glitch.

It is, after all, possible that Bioware was simply scrambling to get a permanent missile glitch fix out as soon as possible, and didn't include any of the other issues in their patch because that would have meant a delay in getting the missile glitch fix released (and considering that they've made at least two previous unsuccessful attempts to fix the missile glitch, I can't blame them for trying to release a working, permanent fix ASAP to make up for past humiliation). The real test, therefore, will be to see if Bioware addresses any of the issues mentioned in this thread in future patches and/or balance changes, or if they simply write them off as unimportant and leave the game as-is.

#17
BlackbirdSR-71C

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Meele-focused builds need some love. Well, at the very least melee-focused Vorcha.

That's all I have to add :P

#18
MIA115

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Please let this be heeded. I have no problem with Bioware, but something must be done.

#19
IgnorantScience

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Hostile much? 'negative groundswell' , 'unacceptable' - certainly not endearing yourself to the devs, not that that was your intent.

Honestly, it probably just isn't practical for them to fix a number of these things. ESPECIALLY, this late in the game. I'd imagine they didn't even expect anyone to still be playing multiplayer a year later.

Just not sure wording it like an ultimatum like you did makes much sense. Unfortunately, you don't have any leverage in the relationship.

Edit: that being said, I basically agree that these are all issues that I would similarly prefer were fixed.

Modifié par IgnorantScience, 03 février 2013 - 11:46 .


#20
vonSlash

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IgnorantScience wrote...
Unfortunately, you don't have any leverage in the relationship.


And this is the core of the problem with corporate economics.

#21
randomfoo

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While I can sort of see your point, heck, I'm currently collecting a list of active bugs,  The fact of the matter is that at least for consoles, the Missile Glitch was by far the most common bug gamebreaking bug. Forget credits, missile glitching was so common to basically make playing Gold/Platinum PUGs pretty much unplayable. That's a big frickin' deal and there's nothing else that comes close to ruining the metagame.

1.04 did a huge job fixing most of the gamebreakers that constantly annoyed me (Vanguard glitch, ladders not working, constant enemy desync, netcode in general breaking reloading, shooting, etc).

Most of the rest of the issues you list are either balance or core gameplay mechanic issues that I think are pretty arguable.

* Geth stunlock can be annoying and they were probably overbuffed in the farming days (at least they could patch visuals to be accurate), but stun-resistance has been added, and honestly, when I play against Geth, and I almost exclusively PUG these days, they're not appreciably harder than other factions.

* Collectors: acknowledged bugs on difficulty and they need to be at least XP rebalanced, but they were just added.  For free.  Almost a year later. They're meant to be harder and for people that want the challenge. No one's forcing you to play them, or to play Gold or Platinum.

* Assault Rifles: I'd feel your pain more if there weren't literally 50 other guns to pick from. A lot of them are bad. A few aren't. This applies to AR's along w/ every other class. The only great SMGs is a Promo and an UR. AR is at least a bit better off (Sabre, Harrier, PPR, Typhoon are all great, and there are many more good ones)

* Weapons being more accurate when hip fired - hardly a fustercluck. Honestly, listen to yourself. How many guns does this effect? How hard was it to learn which was more effective? Keep it in perspective. Moving on...

* Sniper Rifle Scope Penalty - this is a game mechanic. They could have chosen to have some other way (incredibly wild accuracy or causing the weapon to sway) but they chose to do a damage penalty. It's not that bad. People that are bothered by it learned to quickshot or switch guns.

* Spawn issues - it's a new problem, but honestly, responsible for all your friends stopping to play ME3MP? That sucks. Most of my friends stopped playing because the game is a year old and new ones came out.

* class Bugs - see my bug list. There are indeed a truckload of them. There are a bunch of bugs that hugely benefit the player as well. Is any particular one gamebreaking? Not really. BTW, the Saboteur/Sabotage thing isn't a bug, just a bad kit design. It's too bad there aren't any others that you can play with. What are we at now, 100+ kits? Again, perspective.

* Pet Powers: yeah, sucks that my HE's drone is useless now, I specced out of it. My HE is still one of my fav classes though, and unlocked Fire Explosions, Omni Capacitors, and Hurricane/CSMG have made that kit way more useful than on Day 1.

* Sync Kill: sometimes annoying/unfair, and hey, I think that Krogans at least should bleed out instead of dying (redundant organs!) at least when stabbed and you should be able to charge/havoc strike w/o being sync killed, but a good player can minimize sync kills w/ good use of ramps and against non-banshees, by learning the rules.  The Ops pack trick even works sometimes.

Going through this list, I think there's a lot that I agree w/ you on balance changes, but I think your post is seriously lacking perspective/borderline "stop whining."  I went from being pretty negative whent he game first came out (it was addictive and fun but had *so* many annoying bugs), to getting to a point where I think Bioware has done a great job fixing most of the worst things and that they've continued supporting and adding things even a year later for a frankly, pretty small playerbase, has earned a lot of cred/respect, and more than a little leeway from me.

I think everyone's gonna have different balance change priorities.  For me:

1) On-Host Phantom DR
2) Collector Swarms way OP/unfairly punish casters
3) HE Drone is beyond useless ATM; it rarely moves, much less draws aggro/shoots things
4) Banshee Bubbles way too often no way to predict (Praetorian bubble doesn't go up unless use a power on it while it's flying. That's fair to me.)
5) It'd be nice if Ops Packs were fixed, especially w/ reduced gates making everyone squishier

In terms of my one RFE, if you could see/filter by host ping, it'd make the game at least 300% more pleasant.

#22
ASmoothCriminalx

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because people didn't complain about the missile glitch... and they certainly didn't complain about it excessively. Obviously, BW just did this for their wallets and not overwhelmingly popular demand.

#23
Eckswhyzed

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IgnorantScience wrote...

Hostile much? 'negative groundswell' , 'unacceptable' - certainly not endearing yourself to the devs, not that that was your intent.

Honestly, it probably just isn't practical for them to fix a number of these things. ESPECIALLY, this late in the game. I'd imagine they didn't even expect anyone to still be playing multiplayer a year later.

Just not sure wording it like an ultimatum like you did makes much sense. Unfortunately, you don't have any leverage in the relationship.

Edit: that being said, I basically agree that these are all issues that I would similarly prefer were fixed.


This pretty much sums up my view.

Nitpick about the SR hipfire penalty - I consider it pretty much a non-issue. The Raptor and Incisor have low damage while scoped and could do with plain damage buffs, while the Indra and CSR are fine as they are now  (all in my opinion, of course).

Personally, I'd like to see a lot more buffs to underperforming powers and evolutions - Pull, Carnage, and Cryo Blast just off the top of my head.

#24
Eckswhyzed

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randomfoo wrote...

5) It'd be nice if Ops Packs were fixed, especially w/ reduced gates making everyone squishier


A few quick points:
-Player gating has been buffed since release. There was also no evidence that it was ever nerfed.
-Ops packs are fine on host thanks to the 1-second invulnerability you get. Off-host is a different story. The best fix I can think of is getting a revive if you are downed when you used an Ops pack in the past 2 seconds. Oh, being able to Ops pack while being staggered would nice as well. Needless to say, this all requires a patch.

#25
k1ngl1ves

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It's a beta for ME4 MP. Problems always occur in a beta...

Modifié par k1ngl1ves, 04 février 2013 - 12:11 .