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[Mightyg]

I'm thinking Cerberus and Collectors are the most challenging at the moment. Also the most enjoyable to fight. Though the geth stunlock really seems out of hand and makes playing some kits not very fun. As far as weapons being catered to silver play, I still think there are a lot of underwhelming choices even on silver. Semi related you would not believe the amount of casual players I've tried to get interested in the game and they said the enemies had too much health. This was especially with ME2 where the demo gave you just the predator I think. Two of my friends didn't even make it off the Cerberus station. This may have had to do with the gameplay itself as much as the weapons, but I can't help but feel like if they're been given some more effective weapons out of the gate they may have stuck around a little longer.

[Ghost0Who0Walks]

JaimasOfRaxis wrote...

I would, except for one little typo on that. I remember only too-clearly my formative days, when we were fighting on Silver and Bronze to so much as get something worth using and improve the flow of not-garbage. And mind you, this was in the days of endless class cards you can't use. For my early career, my weapon of choice was the Collector Rifle; this persisted until I got my first quality Ultra-Rare: The Sabre (which as of yesterday, is Level X). I did not immediately go after commons and uncommons.  After that, most of the rest of my armament rusted from disuse until around the time I started getting the better rares, such as the Graal, Carnifex, and Striker. The second that I got a Plasma Shotgun, I started Golding it up, and that was pretty much the end of Silver and Bronze.

A lot of players do Bronze and Silver, but there's a reason for that: Not everyone playing this game got it on day one, and not everyone is dedicated to playing this game relentlessly like us old guards on BSN have a tendency to do. We just got a massive influx of new players courtesy of the Wii version, and the casual crowd makes up a sizable shred of the playerbase. Additionally, Gold can be a horribly unfun slog in the current metagame for the unprepared: You can immediately run into Geth Stunlock or Collector "Lol we're all possessed" in short order, which, paired with the large number and frequent issues involved with synckill units, fosters them saying "screw this" and keeping at lower difficulties, where these annoyances are minimized. That said, Gold should still be the standard, for the exact reasons I mentioned: If other weapons scale better, are more efficient, and flat out better outside of Bronze, than how the hell are they to compare inside it?

Mark my words, however:  the second the younger players get a high-quality gun they can make use of, their other weapons will fall into disuse. I can guarantee most players who get a Piranha never use a sizable chunk of the shotgun family ever again. I know this because I lived it, and I've seen it countless times from other players. Getting a Piranha spelled the end for Disciple/Scimitar/Etc use for many players I know.

Jaimas, I've been right there with you for most of this discussion, particularly in regards to all of the BS present in Gold, but I need to break some bad news to you: Gold is not the game's standard. If you look at the three initial difficulty levels, Bronze would be Easy, Gold would be Hard, and the default difficulty is Silver. Silver has the greatest variety in enemy spawns (as opposed to the mook-heavy Bronze and the boss-heavy Gold) and is the place where pretty much every kit and every gun is viable in some form or another. That's what Bioware has been balancing the game around, and that's why some guns and kits are viable in Gold and some aren't: because it is the difficulty level intended to be more challenging and less forgiving. It might be where you and most of the BSN regulars spend most of your time, but, having spent so much time here, you've forgotten that you guys are the exceptions among the playerbase, not the standard, as demonstrated by the 75% figure Mr. Johnson gave.

Now, this certainly isn't saying that there aren't things that need to be fixed, dear me no, but all of you need to remember that we are a tiny fraction of the community, the ones who bother to go to the official forums and check for balance changes and discuss DPS numbers and min-maxing. Make fun of the Bronze casuals/scrubs all you like, but they outnumber you by a significant margin, and they have their own reasons for playing the game; some just want to get in, finish a few missions to max out their Galactic Readiness for the single-player and then never come back, others just like getting online and playing with friends, others just plain aren't good enough for the higher difficulties, no matter how strong the kit and gun they're using is. Similar reasons can be given for people who spend the majority of their time in Silver. Sure, the money's better in Gold, but sometimes that's just not a compelling-enough reason to get someone to step up to a harder, more stressful, difficulty with a smaller margin for error.

If we're talking about bugs that need to be fixed and changes that need to be made, we need to talk about them in regards to all difficulty levels and all styles of play, because trying to convince the developers to cater only to the hardcore minority and the hardest difficulty level is a fruitless endeavor.

[Megakoresh]

Bryan Johnson wrote...

@Mega your post is a little hostile, and you have taken what I said completely out of context. I was stating not all guns are necessarily gold viable and some are designed more for a silver setting and that the lower difficulties are more popular. It does not mean that the higher difficulties are neglected in fact they get more attention despite the amount of people. I play this game a lot myself, I do not find the geth overly difficult, nor collectors personally.The long term longevity of this game you say, well ask a year ago most people here how long they expected multiplayer to be going, I think you find virtually no one that would say a year.

There are also people who believe that the collectors are the most balanced faction in the game.

I don't know where you saw hostility there. Also fun does not necessarily mean it's imbalanced. I don't know if you can deem the bugs with the Geth to make them OP. I only know that neither Geth nor Collectors are fun to play. Geth are not fun to play because the Prime and Bomber are clearly overpowered and frustrating. Collectors are not fun to play because of Seeker swarms and Scions being able to shoot grenades.

Those do not mean they are unbalanced, because to me they are not more difficult than Cerberus or Reapers. They are just frustrating because some units are overpowered and they break the game. That's how majority feels anyway, and I agree with them on that.

I would like to know what difficulty you play at too.

And also the moment I went into this MP I knew this is something that will keep me occupied for a long time, and you kept making DLCs. It was partially the fact that it was so broken and yet managed to suck in so many people, that stunned me most about it. But I doub't I would be wrong if I say that the studio itsellf did not expect it to become so successful.

In the end this is not a bragging conversation. I wanted to know what is the attitude towards thos game among the studio members. I know the attitude of EA. Everyone does. But what about you? Do you want people to enjoy your game as much as possible? Or do you only care about commercial success?

PS: On your last sentence: and you can find people, like yours truly, who think GPR is an amazing weapon (that's not so say it doesn't need a buff). You can find people who think pretty much anything.

Modifié par Megakoresh, 05 février 2013 - 09:29 .

[3XT3RM1N4TUS]

Bryan Johnson wrote...

@Mega your post is a little hostile, and you have taken what I said completely out of context. I was stating not all guns are necessarily gold viable and some are designed more for a silver setting and that the lower difficulties are more popular. It does not mean that the higher difficulties are neglected in fact they get more attention despite the amount of people. I play this game a lot myself, I do not find the geth overly difficult, nor collectors personally.The long term longevity of this game you say, well ask a year ago most people here how long they expected multiplayer to be going, I think you find virtually no one that would say a year.

There are also people who believe that the collectors are the most balanced faction in the game.

There are also people who say that Vindicator is gold worthy weapon if you "deal triple headshot to enemies". No, wait, it was you!

[Bryan Johnson]

@Mega leaving aside the comment of hostility we can discuss that via PM if you so wish. What a person deems fun is subjective, there is no set formula for fun. You are also basing the term majority on another means of subjectivity, mainly the BSN.

I personally play gold and platinum

If you look at an earlier post, I talked about perceptions. You offered a binary choice either you care about money and money along or you care about the quality of the product. That is not a binary choice in my mind, there is a balance. Example: weekend challenges have promo weapons, if money was all we cared about we could not have done that and instead charged 5 dollars per upgrade.

Obviously the financial success of EA is an important one to me, because not only does that mean that we are able to release future games and products it also means I can live my life and have a retirement fund.

[Dokteur Kill]

Ghost0Who0Walks wrote...
Jaimas, I've been right there with you for most of this discussion, particularly in regards to all of the BS present in Gold, but I need to break some bad news to you: Gold is not the game's standard. If you look at the three initial difficulty levels, Bronze would be Easy, Gold would be Hard, and the default difficulty is Silver.

I'm not going to disagree with you. But one issue is that the reward/progression system isn't really balanced around silver. 

[Bryan Johnson]

3XT3RM1N4TUS wrote...
There are also people who say that Vindicator is gold worthy weapon if you "deal triple headshot to enemies". No, wait, it was you!

Good to bring that out of left field, did you know a speed run record for gold reapers back in the day was held by someone using a vindicator?

[3XT3RM1N4TUS]

Bryan Johnson wrote...

3XT3RM1N4TUS wrote...
There are also people who say that Vindicator is gold worthy weapon if you "deal triple headshot to enemies". No, wait, it was you!

Good to bring that out of left field, did you know a speed run record for gold reapers back in the day was held by someone using a vindicator?

It was used to apply elemental damage, this argument is invalid.

Modifié par 3XT3RM1N4TUS, 05 février 2013 - 09:45 .

[Bryan Johnson]

3XT3RM1N4TUS wrote...

It was used to apply elemental damage, this argument is invalid.

Hmm AP rounds add elemental damage?

[Merkit91]

Bryan Johnson wrote...

3XT3RM1N4TUS wrote...
There are also people who say that Vindicator is gold worthy weapon if you "deal triple headshot to enemies". No, wait, it was you!

Good to bring that out of left field, did you know a speed run record for gold reapers back in the day was held by someone using a vindicator?

Is there any vid for that speed run? Can I have a link please? I always wanted to see at least somebody other then me using the Vindicator on Gold, but nobody ever used that gun in all those Gold Pugs I've played since March 

[Siran]

What's gold worthy anyway? If it means you can hold your own in a team on Gold, pretty much any weapon is gold-worthy, hell, I made the AR-weekend-challenge with an Avenger on Gold and there are several platinum-videos out there with people playing lvl 1 characters and common weapons.

Or does gold-worthy mean "tops the score-board every time"? Then I'm afraid that's a pretty narrow-minded categorization.

Modifié par Siran, 05 février 2013 - 10:02 .

[3XT3RM1N4TUS]

Bryan Johnson wrote...

3XT3RM1N4TUS wrote...

It was used to apply elemental damage, this argument is invalid.

Hmm AP rounds add elemental damage?

Okay, I guess I didn't know about this. Got video?

Anyway this record means nothing. I outscored TGI with Harrier using Human Sol with Phaeston on gold and you know what? This gun is still awful. Same with GPR, Valk, Vindicator and CAR. They are only good for killing mooks with headshots. JUST LIKE OTHER WEAPONS. 

[Siran]

3XT3RM1N4TUS wrote...
Anyway this record means nothing. I outscored TGI with Harrier using Human Sol with Phaeston on gold and you know what? This gun is still awful. Same with GPR, Valk, Vindicator and CAR. They are only good for killing mooks with headshots. JUST LIKE OTHER WEAPONS. 

In a good team there are various roles. Among others those who handle bosses and those who kill off the mooks. And that's not even specific to guns. There are powers designed for crowd control and powers for boss killing, same with guns.

Modifié par Siran, 05 février 2013 - 10:00 .

[nanotm]

Bryan Johnson wrote...

Mightyg wrote...

They're definitely not prioritized over consumables in veteran packs. Adding the uncommon gear would also really be helpful i think.

Priortized and present are two different issues. I am going to take it to mean you do not feel the mod drop rate is high enough?

if people are struggling to get th common/uncommon items (weapons,weapon mods, gear and kits) then they dont have there gels etc maxed out

when i started playing i got myself up to 255 in gels /missiles/clip packs/oops packs by getting dragged through gold and plat games and spending on jep's

then i starrted buying recruit packs/vet packs and maxed out common/uncommon in about a week

after that i started buying psp's and only though the new packs at xmass did i get the rares /chars all to max still struggling ot max out the ur's though too much lvl 4 ammo

but yeah the store prioritises consumables (gels etc) over everythign else, after that it gives char cards (not necessarily ones you need) untill your class is maxed (recruit packs always give a random char card) arsenal packs are the only ones i havent gained a char card from once all chars were maxed (full customisation) and each class was lvl 20.

its a slightly odd system but its easilly possible to weight it in your favour as the player

[Bryan Johnson]

http://m.youtube.com...h?v=JTVftSK3djI

Yah it's back from March 22nd so that is without gear, level IV consumables and without the Drell buff

[Megakoresh]

Bryan Johnson wrote...

@Mega leaving aside the comment of hostility we can discuss that via PM if you so wish. What a person deems fun is subjective, there is no set formula for fun. You are also basing the term majority on another means of subjectivity, mainly the BSN.

I personally play gold and platinum

If you look at an earlier post, I talked about perceptions. You offered a binary choice either you care about money and money along or you care about the quality of the product. That is not a binary choice in my mind, there is a balance. Example: weekend challenges have promo weapons, if money was all we cared about we could not have done that and instead charged 5 dollars per upgrade.

Obviously the financial success of EA is an important one to me, because not only does that mean that we are able to release future games and products it also means I can live my life and have a retirement fund.

If you play on Origin, you can add me, I would not mind showing what things are objectively not fun. In text form, for example:

The aforementioned "I want to revive or run, but spacebar says I need to take cover" is objectively not fun because it's not what I control.

High-RoF weapons deals a lot less damage then they should because of "blank shot" bug is objectively not fun because it's not something I control

Argus worse than Hornet in every way (Weight, DPS, Refire rate, Mods available, recoil, accuracy loss) is not fun because under no circumstances can I take Argus and be better than with Hornet, that's just not mathematically possible.

I get that EA's success is important, although a studio like yours would not really suffer even if EA was to die like THQ. I think if any publisher was given a choice to buy one studio, they would buy BioWare. And in terms of fixing balance for the sake of longevity it really is a binary choice, like in Mass Effect. Paragon or Renegade. Weekend challenges do not seem like a good example to me. I have most of friends list on a break from the game, but they all do weekend challenges. It's a way to keep people playing. They go back on a break because they are endgame like me.

I would never make assumptions about majority based on BSN. I am not that crazy. I realize that people I see are but a small fraction of those who play. And I base most of my opinion of what my friends, being very hardcore players, tell me, what people in PuG games say and what I myself feel. My opinion is not one without bias as isn't yours or anyone else's.

Do you think that when you are forced to waste time switching cover because scion throws grenades on his last square of Armour, it's fun? Or when you get stunlocked by Prime, then his drone and then downed by his turret, all the while not being able to do ANYTHING about it, it's fun? Sure you can avoid it and that would make the match a lot longer. Is it fun to play for 10 minutes more, running from enemies to avoid this scenario?

I tend to find whatever situation in a game where I have no control over what happens and where I do not do as well I expect to because of the game and not because of my fault as something that's not fun.

I, for example, hate sync kills. They are not fun to me at all and I really dislike the existence of such mechanics. But I see it's value. I see the risk and tension theur bring that people can enjoy. Having gamebreaking bugs, however and weapons that are just mathematically inferior to others in every respect does seem like objectively not fun to me. You "buffed" the Valkyrie, does it do it any good with it's accuracy loss during burst? Not one bit. Still takes 16 shots to kill a Gold Marauder in the head from medium range. And that's a promotional weapon.

Just go ahead and take a Argus versus collectors on Geth Engineer. Then take a Hornet on the same setup. See which one is more fun. You can take CAR is you don't like Hornet.

I very much appreciate the fact that you take time to respond to this. I may not know how studio feels about these issues, but I know that at least one person cares, that's comforting.

[noxpanda]

Christ what is this? Fry bryan day? Give the man a break, he is not the sole employee/developer/owner of bioware.
This game has bugs and ya know what? I still find its a lot of fun!

[Beta Commando]

This needs to be stickied by Bioware so they can always return and look into " the things that need to be done-list. "

[Roninraver]

Megakoresh wrote...
The aforementioned "I want to revive or run, but spacebar says I need to take cover" is objectively not fun because it's not what I control.

High-RoF weapons deals a lot less damage then they should because of "blank shot" bug is objectively not fun because it's not something I control 

Objective doesn't mean what you think it means.

Those examples are both frustrating, and indeed I'd feel comfortable in saying that the vast majority of players find those situations not fun, but that doesn't make them objectively not fun.  Everyone's tastes are a little different, everyone's experience of "fun" is a very personal thing, deeply influenced by their own feelings and opinions about the experience they are having.

This makes fun a textbook example of a subjective concept.


As for the reason why you find those things not fun, I agree.  But loss of control is not necessarily not fun.

I don't control roller coasters, but I find them fun.  Same with bungee jumping and skydiving.  Many people enjoy these things, where personal control is minimized or removed.
Sometimes a (brief) loss of control can be a pleasurable experience.  It's the implementation of and situation in which control is taken from/given up by you that makes all the difference.

Megakoresh wrote...
Argus worse than Hornet in every way (Weight, DPS, Refire rate, Mods available, recoil, accuracy loss) is not fun because under no circumstances can I take Argus and be better than with Hornet, that's just not mathematically possible.
...

Just go ahead and take a Argus versus collectors on Geth Engineer. Then take a Hornet on the same setup. See which one is more fun. You can take CAR is you don't like Hornet.

I like the Argus more than the Hornet on Turian kits, feels beefier.  Feels right.
I like the Hornet on ex-Cerberus and my Human engineers.  I could use the Hurricane, but I like the noise!  Brrrap!  Brrrap!

On a Geth engineer I find neither very fun, it's Geth Pulse Rifle all the way!  Watergun-O-Doom straight to the face!


You seem to require supreme effectiveness and maximization in order to have fun.  I'd say that sucks, but to each their own.  So long as I can reach a level of effectiveness that meets the challenge (better than even odds of success, maybe 70%) then I am comfortable "slumming it" a bit so far as kit and builds go.

I'll carry the Watergun-O-Doom or the Disciple, or whatever tickles my fancy at that moment and do well with it.  I like the added challenge of performing above expectations despite the math.  That is fun for me.

[3XT3RM1N4TUS]

Siran wrote...

3XT3RM1N4TUS wrote...
Anyway this record means nothing. I outscored TGI with Harrier using Human Sol with Phaeston on gold and you know what? This gun is still awful. Same with GPR, Valk, Vindicator and CAR. They are only good for killing mooks with headshots. JUST LIKE OTHER WEAPONS. 

In a good team there are various roles. Among others those who handle bosses and those who kill off the mooks. And that's not even specific to guns. There are powers designed for crowd control and powers for boss killing, same with guns.

Powers - yes, weapons - no. Name me weapon which is not good for mook killing (except Acolyte)

[3XT3RM1N4TUS]

noxpanda wrote...

Christ what is this? Fry bryan day? Give the man a break, he is not the sole employee/developer/owner of bioware.
This game has bugs and ya know what? I still find its a lot of fun!

BSN needs less bootlicks like you. Bugs must be fixed, and poor design/balance/gameplay decisions must be reworked. 

[JaimasOfRaxis]

Bryan Johnson wrote...

I am unsure how the omision of having the CAR helps your case (I do think you for your honesty) but the fact that you used it and had fun with it does this not kind of show that power isn't everything kind of arguement is a valid one?

When I quoted you that stat that wasn't including WiiU, every single platform displays this stat and has been fairly consistent in the last 6 months. 

You are certainly correct that players might have guns fall by the wayside over time, but you can't use that as an arguement because if every game was approximately on par people would stay with their crutch the entire time. 

The CAR being used by me was solely because starting out, I didn't have anything better. The second I got the Saber, I rarely used it again except for the lulz (such as when OneTrueShot and I went on Bronze with them claiming they were a new DLC weapon, circa Rebellion). And again, Casual market is always biggest share.

But you're missing the point, noble Bryan.

It's an extension of what I've colorfully dubbed Carnifex Syndrome, something that emerged during the Demo and continued well past into the present metagame. The general gist is this: You have many pistols in ME3 multiplayer, but the Carnifex completely dominated, up until Earth, the pistol metagame. This is because it had high firepower, relatively light weight, and in general, good balance. Unless you had a turbo controller or masochistic tendencies, the Carnifex was the go-to pistol to use, offering the best performance overall, even without having a good power-to-size ratio.

The second you had a Carnifex, there was zero reason to use any other pistol until you got a UR one like the Talon or Paladin, which wasn't even definitively better than the Carnifex until Retaliation hit. The only reason the Carnifex stopped being used quite so much was the emergence of the Acolyte, which, after a little while, became a go-to favorite.

The case is true for virtually every other weapon category. Almost any player who gets a Cerberus Harrier will use it above most of the other rifles in the game, because at level 1, with all of its issues (low ammo count, high ammo consumption, high start weight), it's very effective at what it does and is tacitly considered a better option than most rifles at level 10. The Piranha's rise to dominance is well-documented, and another good example; with its high damage, light weight, and ease of use, it quickly rose to prominence, even in the rise of shotguns being one of the better weapon categories, with guns like the Claymore, Reegar, and Raider available.

The weapons balanced for Bronze quickly lose their sparkle, even in the vaccuum that is the Bronze only metagame, when paired with guns that can better pull their own weight. This is simple logic and is easily calculable. If I have one "intended for Bronze" weapon, and one "intended for Gold" weapon, it's very likely that the Gold one will be the better option. One needs look no further than the Eviscerator/Scimitar dichotomy, or the Piranha becoming the most-used shotgun for an explanation as to why this is.

[HolyAvenger]

^ I don't think this is correct. I have Harrier X, but I personally don't like using it. I love the Saber, PPR and even Mattock much more. Similarly with pistols (Acolyte or Talon or Paladin depending on mood or kit) or any of the other guns.

It is simply your opinion that there is "one best gun" but I do not think that it is true, and it is not reflected in loadouts of the PUGs I play I with or heck, I bet, even in BioWare's metadata as weapons THAT overused would be quickly nerfed (see uncharged Acolyte as the best recent example).

[Roninraver]

3XT3RM1N4TUS wrote...

noxpanda wrote...

Christ what is this? Fry bryan day? Give the man a break, he is not the sole employee/developer/owner of bioware.
This game has bugs and ya know what? I still find its a lot of fun!

BSN needs less bootlicks like you. Bugs must be fixed, and poor design/balance/gameplay decisions must be reworked. 

Yeah, except they MUST not be.  Bioware MUST do not a damned thing.

Some bugs will be left unfixed, because it's not reproduceable on demand/it would cost too much to fix in relation to how severe a bug it is/because Bioware hates Granny Smith apples/whatever reason.

And design decisions are even LESS likely to be reworked, given that they are not accidental and unintentional code line faux pas that spring up without warning.  They were intentional.  They were done on purpose, for what the designer believed were good reasons.

Want to change their minds?  Want those design decisions looked at more critically?  Want to ever hope to see a bright new dawn in which Geth can't give you the palsy at the drop of a hat?


Then tone it back a little, and realize that Bioware owes you NOTHING other than the copy of the game disc which you received, in exchange for your money.
Anything given after that exchange is at their whim, and you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.


When you want something, and you're not in a position to make demands or enforce your will over another, you have no alternative but to ask, and be ready to receive a "No" in response.

To decrease the odds of said "No" be less of a ****, and hope for the best.

[noxpanda]

3XT3RM1N4TUS wrote...

noxpanda wrote...

Christ what is this? Fry bryan day? Give the man a break, he is not the sole employee/developer/owner of bioware.
This game has bugs and ya know what? I still find its a lot of fun!

BSN needs less bootlicks like you. Bugs must be fixed, and poor design/balance/gameplay decisions must be reworked. 

Cheers sweetie! I actually just felt sorry for the guy, humble apologies for that. I didnt deny that the game has bugs, or that i myself wouldn't mind seeing some of them fixed. I just dont expect one employee to have all the answers.
Maybe you should try more 'hey any updates to x bug?' rather than 'grrrr why is this not fixed yet?'