147 réponses à ce sujet

[Torrible]

 It's probably better now but in the first few months of release at least, the ME3 story forums needed a disclaimer like this one.

Clicky

Modifié par Torrible, 05 février 2013 - 10:17 .

[Allan Schumacher]

It's the nature of the Internet.

Herein lies the tragedy. Anonymity is a powerful thing, and it's easy to be belligerent if it doesn't come back to haunt you.

I can still be aggressive in internet posts as well, but it's getting easier and easier for me to just bow out of threads that have discussions that I find are becoming to hostile (I'm speaking universally, rather than BSN specifically).

The biggest bothers for me are the complete lack of respect for differing opinions. I think, sadly, that when someone that dislikes a particular product encounters someone that likes a particular product, that person feels threatened because the idea that someone else likes that product gives that product a degree of validation. In the world of scarce resources, that creates a sense of competition for the things that they want.


I tend to hang around RPG focused places of discussion, though I'm hardly an RPG exclusive gamer. I often see lamentations about the sequelitis that publishers have, with more and more sports games and more call of duties and so forth. However, despite this I always see cries for BG3, PST2. It's not so much that people dislike sequels (there's a degree of familiarity in most cases). They just want sequels of the games they like.


But I have long since given up on console wars. Console vs. PC and so forth. I'll occasionally get involved if someone is just being ignorantly belligerent (regardless of which side they want). I'm a PC gamer, but hold nothing against someone that prefers console games. I often find myself deleting responses I write up because I get the feeling that I'm just "feeding the troll" and the conversation will not be fruitful.


I've been called some pretty hurtful things (though my skin has grown thicker) in my time here. On DAO someone suggested that it would have been advantageous for my mother to have aborted me, lest DAO actually get someone actually qualified to QA. Details of the insult aside (it's just an attempt to create a particular nasty example to properly demonstrate just how angry they are), that that level of hostility does exist is surprising to me.


I see people champion a kickstarter and make it adversarial ("that's money you're not going to get BioWare"), or accept that an internet poll placed EA as the Worst Company in America as being examples of how much of a blight EA is (the creator of luxury goods known as video games) and that me pointing out that it's probably not a representative poll is just me living in denial.

(As an aside, read up on something like this.  I'm reasonably convinced that any person that truly feels that EA is the Worst Company in America has had a pretty fortunate life)


The problem I have with falling back on "it's the nature of the internet" is that, as a person, it tends to leave me with jaded feelings towards the gaming population and causes me to spend less time interacting. I'm not talking as a dev, but as a game player. I am significantly less active on posting on the internet than I was 8 years ago, because "the nature of the internet" isn't very fun for me anymore.

There's two forums I regularly post on: Obsidian and this one. Even Obsidian has had me take several year time outs (I returned because of Project Eternity), and my heyday of BioWare posting was around Knights of the Old Republic. I didn't start posting again until ME3 came out and part of me just kinda felt bad for those that were disappointed and wanted to throw some fans a bone and give them a place to talk and even vent/rant towards. I may not have been on Mass Effect, but I think people still liked talking to someone with the "BioWare" tag.


The other problem is that the negative gets so much exposure, especially when it's super crazy (FTC complaints!?). Fortunately, something like this goes around and it's a bit easier to remind myself that video gaming is still fun and enjoyable for people. I think because of the conflict of someone else liking something you hate, it's easier for the fun stories to get drowned out because people feel they have a vested interest in convincing us/the world/whatever to make the game they want and not the game that the other guy liked.


Anyways I'm rambling and my food is ready.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 06 février 2013 - 02:22 .

[Drone223]

@Allan

I pretty much agree with what you said.

[TheRealJayDee]

I really need to sleep, so just a very quick response:

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I didn't start posting again until ME3 came out and part of me just kinda felt bad for those that were disappointed and wanted to throw some fans a bone and give them a place to talk and even vent/rant towards. I may not have been on Mass Effect, but I think people still liked talking to someone with the "BioWare" tag.

I can't tell you how much I appreciated you hanging around and talking with us. Since you weren't on the ME team there really was only so much you could do, but that you did it anyways was great! I really wish someone from the ME3 team would have talked to us like that...
Whatever, you're cool!

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Anyways I'm rambling and my food is ready.

I hope your food was yummy!

[Darth Krytie]

I both agree and disagree with this post, respectfully. I do think that BSN, at times, can be a great place for conversation and interactions. On the other hand, I also find it incredibly toxic. I hate when people handwave the badness of it with "that's just the way the internet is" because there have been a lot of things that sucked in the world and "that's just how it is" is a crappy excuse to do nothing to change it.

It all comes down to how we disagree with each other. If someone is a fan of A and says "I really like A" and someone else disagrees, they're more likely to say "You're an idiot if you like A" instead of saying "Yanno, I really dislike A for these reasons". No one wants to hear that they're a moron for enjoying something.

And that is the main reason I find these forums toxic. People tend to be kind of terrible about dissenting opinions.

[CrazyRah]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

The biggest bothers for me are the complete lack of respect for differing opinions. I think, sadly, that when someone that dislikes a particular product encounters someone that likes a particular product, that person feels threatened because the idea that someone else likes that product gives that product a degree of validation. In the world of scarce resources, that creates a sense of competition for the things that they want.


There's two forums I regularly post on: Obsidian and this one. Even Obsidian has had me take several year time outs (I returned because of Project Eternity), and my heyday of BioWare posting was around Knights of the Old Republic. I didn't start posting again until ME3 came out and part of me just kinda felt bad for those that were disappointed and wanted to throw some fans a bone and give them a place to talk and even vent/rant towards. I may not have been on Mass Effect, but I think people still liked talking to someone with the "BioWare" tag.



Anyways I'm rambling and my food is ready.

I think you're right on the money with your idea that people feel threatened when someone elses opinion validate the thing you perhaps don't like. It sucks that some people feel that way and i really don't have an answer on how to make them think differently.

That you posted when ME3 released meant a huge difference for me and probably a lot of other people. I can't fathom what nasty stuff you probably had to read but at least i do appreciate the time you spent greatly and it helped me come to terms that sometimes a game just don't go the way i had hoped. So yeah that someone with a Bioware tag was active was so very important and like i said much appreciated.

Hope the food taste delicious! 

[Bushido Effect]

I signed up in 2011, at first only to register my ME games. But only started using the boards in 2012, before ME3 launched. Even since then, I've seen some crazy things/topics/people here. Quite entertaining, I won't lie lol. Was mostly on the ME3 story board, then MP later. I posted in the Indoctrination threads a few times. that was insane..

Anyway GameFAQs is my main place. Been member since 2006.

[Wulfram]

The main problem with internet forums is that a post which makes people angry will provoke many times the amount of responses than other types of posts. And angry responses have a likelihood to make more people angry. Which means it's very easy for a reasoned discussion to be taken over by a flame war, but difficult for a flamewar to be overtaken by a reasoned discussion.

Basically, bad posts drive out good.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

Hi guyz. Anyone knows how to survive these toxic forums?!

[spam image removed]

Modifié par Ninja Stan, 07 février 2013 - 09:04 .

[Captain Cornhole]

BSN users make the sub-humans over at /b/ look like saints.

[Allan Schumacher]

I wouldn't say that.

I do find hostility breeds hostility on the internet though. Wulfram put it quite well, in my opinion.


Sure it may be the nature of the internet, but that doesn't mean it has to be.

[AngryFrozenWater]

That's a very good original post, Jimmy. I don't know where this connection between critique and hate comes from. I don't feel it that way. Some people feel that having different points of view is like having a fight. Others feel that one should only praise the game, because not doing so is again like having a fight. I think it is between the ears of those people. And sometimes that attitude causes more problems than the actual critique.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 07 février 2013 - 12:09 .

[spirosz]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

That's a very good original post, Jimmy. I don't know where this connection between critique and hate comes from. I don't feel it that way. Some people feel that having different points of view is like having a fight. Others feel that one should only praise the game, because not doing so is again like having a fight. I think it is between the ears of those people. And sometimes that attitude causes more problems than the actual critique.

Well, from the way I look at it, if you praise their game, or any of Bioware's titles, it will feel like you have "their" back or Bioware will look the other way, but that's not necessarily the case, it's just that vibe I feel or as Allan put it, that "edge" that some users might believe others have.  

Tbh, Bioware needs both the postive and negative and I find that the positive feedback gets overlooked because it boils down to "I like it" and Bioware might think of it in terms of "oh if "x" number of people like, I guess I'll continue doing this type of work", yet it still needs to be specific and detailed enough to resassure Bioware in their future titles and the same goes with criticism, but from what I've seen, criticism tends to be more detailed, especially from certain users.  I find criticism is easier to give in detail, especially if one has experience in certain fields of gaming; writing, animation, etc... but that's just me.   

Modifié par spirosz, 07 février 2013 - 12:38 .

[Fast Jimmy]

Thanks to everyone who has replied to this thread. I'm glad to hear that at least a few people here like the BSN, even if it has lots of room for improvement.


I had an idea, but I was curious if it would feel too medieval.

When a mod closes a thread, everyone can see that. However, when particularly hostile posters are banned (temp or perma) there is no way to see that at all. The only time a perma ban is known about is if the poster still has access to PMs or status updates, has other means of contact such as Facebook or comes back under a new alias.

This can actually be a bad thing, in some lights.

For instance, if everyone can see "if this is what you do, this can get you banned" it would eliminate the uncertainty of the tipping point. This can help keep many people in line, who will then know from experience when too far is too far. Similarly, people can know if someone who was disrupting a thread is banned and gone, so that those still interested in normal discussion could be clear to return, if they so choose.

I realize the reasons behind wanting to keep bans and other disciplinary action between the mod and the offender, but a little of the "putting the law breakers in the stockades" might help set an example for behavior for those who don't like to always play nice.

[spirosz]

Don't they specify what can get you banned in the rules section?

[Allan Schumacher]

How does it work on a place like Something Awful? (although their forum is verrrrrrrrrry different).

Positive (as in constructive) discussion does exist. Even about trying to improve the forum (UNESCO or whatever it was called) so that it's more constructive.

Well, from the way I look at it, if you praise their game, or any of Bioware's titles, it will feel like you have "their" back or Bioware will look the other way, but that's not necessarily the case, it's just that vibe I feel or as Allan put it, that "edge" that some users might believe others have.

Tbh, Bioware needs both the postive and negative and I find that the positive feedback gets overlooked because it boils down to "I like it" and Bioware might think of it in terms of "oh if "x" number of people like, I guess I'll continue doing this type of work", yet it still needs to be specific and detailed enough to resassure Bioware in their future titles and the same goes with criticism, but from what I've seen, criticism tends to be more detailed, especially from certain users. I find criticism is easier to give in detail, especially if one has experience in certain fields of gaming; writing, animation, etc... but that's just me.

I think, especially shortly after release, criticism is more apparent because those that are enjoying the game have little reason to vent. Someone that is frustrated and angry will need some catharsis, while someone that is enjoying the game is (hopefully) sucked into the game. This goes doubly so if people are blocked from playing the game for some sort of technical reason.

[Volus Warlord]

spirosz wrote...

Don't they specify what can get you banned in the rules section?

Yes they most certainly do.. but for a variety of reasons enforcement and degree of consequences are not always consistent. Mods aren't everywhere at once, consequences are not set in.. anything, the definitions of some offenses are rather vague (i.e. spam), so on and so forth.

Anywho, I'm beginning to wonder if this thread could be viewed as navel-gazing.

[Ghost Lightning]

Has a joke referencing Britney Spears already been made? If not then ya...that....

[Fast Jimmy]

Volus Warlord wrote...

spirosz wrote...

Don't they specify what can get you banned in the rules section?

Yes they most certainly do.. but for a variety of reasons enforcement and degree of consequences are not always consistent. Mods aren't everywhere at once, consequences are not set in.. anything, the definitions of some offenses are rather vague (i.e. spam), so on and so forth.

Anywho, I'm beginning to wonder if this thread could be viewed as navel-gazing.

As long as it doesn't involve any navel piercing, I think we're good. 

[Fast Jimmy]

spirosz wrote...

Don't they specify what can get you banned in the rules section?

It says any personal attack will result in immediate bans. But what's a personal attack? I see people call others immature all the time. Is that not putting an individual in a negative character light? Could it not be viewed as slander and, hence, an attack? But no one gets banned for that. But if I call someone a Bio*rone, that could easily be seen as a personal attack. 

Everyone sees a Speed Limit posted when they are driving. But does everyone follow it? No, most people go a little over that limit, because the cops won't pull them over for it. Sometimes, people can blaze on the forums going double the speed limit and not get banned or a warning, but other can get dinged for going just above. 

I'm not faulting the mods at all (just like the cops, they can't be everywhere at once) but if more people could see those who are speeding get "ticketed," so to speak, this may result in people knowing how far they can toe the line, instead of feeling like everyone attacks everyone else and nothing happens about it, until suddenly when you just don't hear from a certain poster in weeks or suddenly one person you insult PMs a mod and you are sitting on the sidelines. 

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 07 février 2013 - 02:41 .

[darth_lopez]

is too.

It's getting progressively better though, at least in off topic i tend to stay away from everywhere else anymore mostly because i'm uninterested and tired of people often just posting things like the above "is too" which i have seen happen way too frequently sometimes @.@

Modifié par darth_lopez, 07 février 2013 - 03:06 .

[Allan Schumacher]

Also, Allan, do you have to pay to partake in the Something Awful forums? I feel like I remember that from somewhere, could be wrong.

Yup. (Although their unregistered user language filter is hilarious)

It has big text "User was banned for this post" and whatnot.

[Ninja Stan]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

When a mod closes a thread, everyone can see that. However, when particularly hostile posters are banned (temp or perma) there is no way to see that at all. The only time a perma ban is known about is if the poster still has access to PMs or status updates, has other means of contact such as Facebook or comes back under a new alias.

This can actually be a bad thing, in some lights.

For instance, if everyone can see "if this is what you do, this can get you banned" it would eliminate the uncertainty of the tipping point. This can help keep many people in line, who will then know from experience when too far is too far. Similarly, people can know if someone who was disrupting a thread is banned and gone, so that those still interested in normal discussion could be clear to return, if they so choose.

I realize the reasons behind wanting to keep bans and other disciplinary action between the mod and the offender, but a little of the "putting the law breakers in the stockades" might help set an example for behavior for those who don't like to always play nice.

I find it ironic that this might be seen as helpful when I have, in the past, been made an online laughingstock for daring to visibly (and sometimes firmly) enforce the rules that everyone has agreed to follow. But that's just my own ego talking, and I've stayed the course regardless.

The BSN isn't about "naming and shaming." Occasionally, we'll call out troublemakers for breaking the rules, but for the most part, everyone is responsible for their own actions on the BSN. If you break the rules seriously enough or often enough, you're going to get banned. But there's no reason for you to be publicly called out for it as well, because you can't respond to it or make any kind of defense for it. The theory is that your removeal from the forums is punishment enough.

For that to have its desired effect, however, participation in the BSN should be seen as a privilege. Being able to chat with folks like Allan or David Gaider, who make the games you're all so keen on, should be something special, something that you don't want to lose. Unfortunately, there are those who don't see this kind of interaction as anything special and, therefore, don't care if their threads are locked, if others are inconvenienced by their bad behaviour, or if they are removed from the community. They'll just come back in another persona, after all, and they have lost nothing. it's the folks who are actually trying to have good conversations and be productive members of this community who suffer, and I find that really sad.

I've stayed on as a Moderator for 11 years and taken my lumps because I love this community and I care about it very much. I don't want to see it devolve into yet another internet message board where no one cares about the rules. That's one reason I'm the "strict one" around here. You guys don't always make it easy on us Moderators. I care about responsible consumerism, intelligent debate, and respect for humanity across the internet.

The past few months, I've been encouraging those who truly care about the community to step up and take some responsibility for its health. If you see shenanigans in the forums, notify a Moderator and link him to the problem thread or post or user profile. Don't engage with spammers and trolls. And, above all, be excellent to each other, especially those you're arguing with. We can disagree with each other without resorting to childish behaviour.

[Dragon_Claw]

Sometimes one creates a dynamic impression by saying something, and sometimes one creates as significant an impression by remaining silent.

Dalai Lama.

Modifié par Dragon_Claw, 07 février 2013 - 09:59 .