147 réponses à ce sujet

[OdanUrr]

One does not simply log into the BSN. Its boards are guarded by more than just moderators. There is madness there that does not sleep, and the Great Evil is ever watchful...

[Fast Jimmy]

Ninja Stan wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

When a mod closes a thread, everyone can see that. However, when particularly hostile posters are banned (temp or perma) there is no way to see that at all. The only time a perma ban is known about is if the poster still has access to PMs or status updates, has other means of contact such as Facebook or comes back under a new alias.

This can actually be a bad thing, in some lights.

For instance, if everyone can see "if this is what you do, this can get you banned" it would eliminate the uncertainty of the tipping point. This can help keep many people in line, who will then know from experience when too far is too far. Similarly, people can know if someone who was disrupting a thread is banned and gone, so that those still interested in normal discussion could be clear to return, if they so choose.

I realize the reasons behind wanting to keep bans and other disciplinary action between the mod and the offender, but a little of the "putting the law breakers in the stockades" might help set an example for behavior for those who don't like to always play nice.

I find it ironic that this might be seen as helpful when I have, in the past, been made an online laughingstock for daring to visibly (and sometimes firmly) enforce the rules that everyone has agreed to follow. But that's just my own ego talking, and I've stayed the course regardless.

And the BSN wouldn't be the BSN without the Woo Banhammer, Stan. Always glad to have you around.

The BSN isn't about "naming and shaming." Occasionally, we'll call out troublemakers for breaking the rules, but for the most part, everyone is responsible for their own actions on the BSN. If you break the rules seriously enough or often enough, you're going to get banned. But there's no reason for you to be publicly called out for it as well, because you can't respond to it or make any kind of defense for it. The theory is that your removeal from the forums is punishment enough.

For that to have its desired effect, however, participation in the BSN should be seen as a privilege. Being able to chat with folks like Allan or David Gaider, who make the games you're all so keen on, should be something special, something that you don't want to lose. Unfortunately, there are those who don't see this kind of interaction as anything special and, therefore, don't care if their threads are locked, if others are inconvenienced by their bad behaviour, or if they are removed from the community. They'll just come back in another persona, after all, and they have lost nothing. it's the folks who are actually trying to have good conversations and be productive members of this community who suffer, and I find that really sad.

To go back to my speeding analogy, driving is also a privilege. A pretty sweet privilege, when you think about it. You get the freedom to go anyplace you please at a rate of speed and control of the user that puts any other conventional mode of travel to shame. But that doesn't stop people from realizing they shouldn't speed, or that speed limits represent a safety limitation for their own good.

People are going to do up to and just a HAIR beyond what they think they can get away with. If people believe they can get away with calling each other names, either outright or thinly veiled, then they will. If people believe they can bash Bioware and their employees, either outright or thinly vieled, they will. If people know that if they post a pornographic image that it will result in an instant banning, they won't. Based on how the BSN behaves, I'd say its well known that an animated gif of a donkey show will not be tolerated at all. I'd say its also NOT well known that being snide, condescending, resorting to name calling or arguing your point by calling someone an insult rather than actually making intelligent points is NOT an offense which is banable. 

I'd also say, fair or not, that many people PERCEIVE that those who criticize Bioware or their decisions are more likely to be banned than people who White Knight for BIoware, but still berate, belittle and use arguments that consist of "if you don't like what Bioware is doing, you are a hater." 

I've stayed on as a Moderator for 11 years and taken my lumps because I love this community and I care about it very much. I don't want to see it devolve into yet another internet message board where no one cares about the rules. That's one reason I'm the "strict one" around here. You guys don't always make it easy on us Moderators. I care about responsible consumerism, intelligent debate, and respect for humanity across the internet.

The past few months, I've been encouraging those who truly care about the community to step up and take some responsibility for its health. If you see shenanigans in the forums, notify a Moderator and link him to the problem thread or post or user profile. Don't engage with spammers and trolls. And, above all, be excellent to each other, especially those you're arguing with. We can disagree with each other without resorting to childish behaviour.

And here's where I would like to get into specifics.

How can we tell which moderators are online and which are not? I know being patient is important, but its one thing to PM a moderator and want an answer in five minutes, its another to PM a moderator who isn't available and won't see your PM for three days, after which the damage to the discussion and thread is already long since past.

Also, can we get a full list of moderators? I see the list of people at the bottom of each screen, but that seems to vary from screen to screen and also seems to include people who log in maybe once every six months, so wouldn't be that great in trying to get some intervention in a thread within a few hours. And not every mod is labeled as such in their avatar. For instance, I had no idea Eurypterid was a mod, I just thought they were a long time poster.

Lastly, would it be okay if someone were to PM multiple moderators at once? Or, as a more complete idea of what I was going for, PM ALL the moderators at once? I know the mods can't be everywhere and pinging everyone at once will likely bring all the available mods to one thread, which is not needed. But I feel like it would work to send a more general "Hey, need a hand from someone here" type of message, rather than try and guess which moderator is on based on their last posts.

I know PMing isn't that difficult on the PC. But I actually wind up using my phone for the VAST majority of my BSN browsing. And, if anyone has tried using the BSN on their phone, they can know that creating a PM is an absolute NIGHTMARE with the light box issues. It will constantly bounce around and make it nearly impossible to see what you are typing. Then, when you are done, if you hit Send but don't press the button EXACTLY right, it will close the light box and erase your entire message without sending it out.

So PMing each individual mod who may or may not be on is a monumental task for me, personally. Not to mention, crusing through profiles of mods to see if they've posted in a while and are online isn't exactly a cake walk, either. If, instead, I already had a PM thread started with all of the the mods who would handle thread closures/bans/warnings, it would be super easy for me to say "Hey, this thread/poster is getting out of line." Given the obstacles to doing so now on my phone, it would take some monumental behavior to warrant a reporting.

I know this isn't neccessarily your personal call or problem to fix, Stan, I just thought your comments would be a good place to air my concerns/questions about the reporting process. Would it be okay if people started PMing the usual mods all at once with their concerns? In lieu of a Report Post button that actually sends feedback to the relevant people, after all. 

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 07 février 2013 - 04:57 .

[Fast Jimmy]

^

I have as well, but I was wondering if it would be looked on as okay if I just had a PM already set up with every (active) mod on there that I can just post into without having to check on people's schedules or worry if anyone who is online is going to see it.

I don't think people have a problem reporting posts or posters, but when you are never sure if the person you are talking to is even going to see your message in any sort of reasonable time frame, it can lead to "Well, I'll just take care of it myself" attitudes. Which are the starts of many flame wars.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 07 février 2013 - 05:00 .

[RedArmyShogun]

Silly Jimmy, only in your mind is the world a peaceful stable place as reflected in the forum. Most of us are just a couple days away from being mad killers/spammers. Your world will be brought down in the flames of chaos. For only in destruction can creation come about.

[Fast Jimmy]

^

Peaceful stable... hey, there's no bronies allowed!

[RedArmyShogun]

Pft I aint no brony. Though I do spy on them from time to time, a Brony with free time, is a dangerous brony, more so the.....cloppers filthy creatures.

[Antiochus V]

   I think it is rather toxic in places, but it is a solvable problem, but will take time.  In my view one approach should be to try to deal with root causes and contributing factors.  Solving the problem will likely lead to the recovery of at least some otherwise lost customers after the arguably flawed recent releases.

   The biggest problem has sadly been product related, I think not unfairly many felt that DA2 and ME3 were rather rushed, and came with some unwanted features like day 1 dlc.  After the event these are rather hard to rectify, but many a company releases buggy and unfinished products, yet still retains some civiliity on its forum and its customer base by constantly staying engaged with them and fixing said problems via patches (it works for Paradox).  Were bioware staff to spend a little more time interacting with their customers it might take some of the edge off their anger. 

   Not all aspects of the forum are negative, multiplayer seems fairly civil (perhaps reflecting the fact it was rather more fun that the single player for many?), and the tech support forum was also a place were people could interact positively with the community.  I think an unintended consquence of freezing the tech support section was the loss of one of the more positive ways people could interact.

   I think the moderating of such of forum is almost impossible task, but there could be a few improvements.  Without wishing to offend those tasked with a thankless job, I would say that if a thread is to be closed or somebody reprimanded it could be done more politely, or with a bit of humour.  Leading by example would in my view be a positive influence on all who use the forum.

   I do feel that Bioware is somewhat unlucky in that it is very hard to make changes to a story focused game after release, but there are other ways in which good behaviour and civility can be ecouraged and supported. 

  

[Ninja Stan]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

How can we tell which moderators are online and which are not?

There is no guarantee on when you will receive a response from a Moderator. I, for one, am very active on a near daily basis and always check my PMs first thing. Other Moderators may have other habits and other procedures.

Also, can we get a full list of moderators?

The list of Moderators for each forum should appear in the Forum Index.

Lastly, would it be okay if someone were to PM multiple moderators at once? Or, as a more complete idea of what I was going for, PM ALL the moderators at once?

Yes, that is okay. You tend to figure out which Mods are most active in which forums.

[Allan Schumacher]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

^

I have as well, but I was wondering if it would be looked on as okay if I just had a PM already set up with every (active) mod on there that I can just post into without having to check on people's schedules or worry if anyone who is online is going to see it.

I don't think people have a problem reporting posts or posters, but when you are never sure if the person you are talking to is even going to see your message in any sort of reasonable time frame, it can lead to "Well, I'll just take care of it myself" attitudes. Which are the starts of many flame wars.

There are some posters that do this.  They don't message *every* mod but they just have a thread with about 5 or 6 people.

[Fast Jimmy]

Thanks guys. I may just go this route as well going forward. I appreciate the feedback.

I don't want to sound ungrateful or anything, but the fact that I'm just learning this now after being an almost-daily poster for two years could be part of the problem as well. A process that is normalized is one that works. A process that is one-offs may be less effective.

But I know this isn't your guys problem to solve, just an observation.

[Allan Schumacher]

No worries.

I don't think it's an old policy, and was part of why John Epler put up those stickies in a variety of threads.

The reporting system is apparently less than awesome. I don't even know where to find them, because I'm not really officially a moderator, I just started posting without really telling anyone.

I'm not always able to read my PMs if I'm just logging on for a quick moment between tasks at work, but that "1 message" does jump out at my OCD.

[Dominus]

So PMing each individual mod who may or may not be on is a monumental task for me, personally. Not to mention, cruisng through profiles of mods to see if they've posted in a while and are online isn't exactly a cake walk, either.

Yes, that 100 times. I used to report on a daily basis, but especially for the times I've tried lately, it's either a case of

a) Said moderator is offline, or
Said moderator was online, but just happened to log off as you sent the PM. Which is always grand.

One individual even pitched the idea of affixing a somewhat restricted version of user moderation, though in retrospect it was likely throwing in more problems than solutions. BSN almost needs a sort of "These mod guys & gals are online, so PM them" box for each specific message board. Or something. That would be helpful.

Modifié par DominusVita, 08 février 2013 - 11:02 .

[Arcadian Legend]

Something to denote which mods are online and offline from the main Forums page would be a godsend.

[Chipaway111]

No idea where the conversation is right now as it's late and I'm tired but Fast Jimmy you made me smile and I give you the credit this post is due... whatever that's worth.

Given I spend my life alternating between the BSN and one other forum, and this is far more pleasant in comparison. I know everyone thinks the BSN is some horrifying domain where newcomers are eaten and their families kidnapped but that doesn't change the fact that it still has some of the most entertaining, witty, intelligent people in an online forum. Fandom threads regarding characters are probably my favourite. If I gushed like that irl I'm pretty sure I'd be ostracised.

[Fast Jimmy]

DominusVita wrote...

So PMing each individual mod who may or may not be on is a monumental task for me, personally. Not to mention, cruisng through profiles of mods to see if they've posted in a while and are online isn't exactly a cake walk, either.

Yes, that 100 times. I used to report on a daily basis, but especially for the times I've tried lately, it's either a case of

a) Said moderator is offline, or
Said moderator was online, but just happened to log off as you sent the PM. Which is always grand.

One individual even pitched the idea of affixing a somewhat restricted version of user moderation, though in retrospect it was likely throwing in more problems than solutions. BSN almost needs a sort of "These mod guys & gals are online, so PM them" box for each specific message board. Or something. That would be helpful.

Or rerouting the "Report This Post" button to a mailbox that is handled by the moderators and not by an EA technical assistance person who has an SLA of three days (if not longer). 

From my own personal experience with web interactive links, I wouldn't imagine it would be all that difficult to reroute such an alert (I'm assuming it is generating an automated email and sent to a shared inbox, just because that's what my experience has shown me) to a different email box, one which all active mods would be expected to have open at all times and which could be flagged as being worked or handled by individuals.

But I might be coloring my own presuppositions into things and be in violations of the USFEO Accord of 2013. Even if it is not video game armchair, it might be web design arm chair, which I'm just as unqualified to give.

[mousestalker]

It's time to introduce some science.

Preparation: I closed my browsers then reopened them. Browsers used were Chrome, Firefox and Explorer. I parked each on a neutral content free page (Google search). I then cleaned the monitor screen with a mild alcohol based cleaning fluid and wiped until the monitor looked clean.

Experiment: I navigated to the BSN website in each browser. When the screen displayed an area considered especially toxic by forum frequenters and critics, I as test subject, placed my mobile gustatory apparatus on the monitor surface and slowly glided it from side to side. After each application I then cleaned the surface with a mild alcohol based cleaning fluid. This procedure was repeated ten times for each browser.

I then repeated the procedure for all three browsers on a control site (Cute Overload).

Results: After all thirty three tests I felt roughly the same. I had a slight taste of alcohol in my mouth. As the trial progressed, my cognitive functions seemed somewhat impaired. By the end of the test I very much needed to sit down.

Conclusion: BSN is not toxic. Prolonged exposure to it, however, will make you drunk.

Modifié par mousestalker, 08 février 2013 - 02:41 .

[Emzamination]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

^

I have as well, but I was wondering if it would be looked on as okay if I just had a PM already set up with every (active) mod on there that I can just post into without having to check on people's schedules or worry if anyone who is online is going to see it.

I don't think people have a problem reporting posts or posters, but when you are never sure if the person you are talking to is even going to see your message in any sort of reasonable time frame, it can lead to "Well, I'll just take care of it myself" attitudes. Which are the starts of many flame wars.

From my exp, allan, chris, fozee and ninja stan are the only active reliable mods who will look into a issue reported via pm. The rest? forget about it.

[RinuCZ]

Fast Jimmy wrote...
...

I don't visit non Off-Topic threads these days but sending PM to multiple receivers-moderators worked for best. Someone usually replied in a matter of hours.

It's kind of tedious process and I think it would be great if Report button was reworked as a function which sends a report message to moderators group. (I wrote it in BW questionnaire as a suggestion too, btw.) Or it lists reports in the specific admin section with link to the problematic post.

[Naughty Bear]

RedArmyShogun wrote...

Silly Jimmy, only in your mind is the world a peaceful stable place as reflected in the forum. Most of us are just a couple days away from being mad killers/spammers. Your world will be brought down in the flames of chaos. For only in destruction can creation come about.

I have always loved your posts.

[Halfdan The Menace]

RedArmyShogun wrote...

Pft I aint no brony. Though I do spy on them from time to time, a Brony with free time, is a dangerous brony, more so the.....cloppers filthy creatures.

Heh! when I first heard about this "Brony phenomenon" thing, I thought  they were trolls. I have no problem with most bronies. However, there are some who annoy people. They are the ones who think that they are superior because of the apparently "love and tolerate". But when faced with a hater, they rage. These bronies are incredibly rare though.


There are the 4 types of brony;

Average
Militant
Religious
Extremist

[Cultist]

Lol, toxic? How cute.
I belong to the "extremist" part of the community, who think that Dragon Age 2 had no good features AT ALL and was a complete abomination and that BioWare's recent approach to RPG making is a disastrous one. Obviously, most of my posts are made of criticism and negative feedback. So, i can judge from my extreme point of negative approach and notice flow of "negativity" in threads I read.
Also, I observed games I was interested in pre and post release. And I can say that BSN is a community no different from any other.
There is a pattern I've noticed in post release reactions. For example:
Empire: Total War - highly expected and hyped game that turned into a disaster. Total War Center - a polite and unique community, because averade age there is 25+ turned into a hellhole within a week.
Civilization V - after release and fandom disappointment, Civfanatics, main hub of civilization-related games, became a pit of vipers.
Tiberium Twilight - words can't express what happened at C&C forums after release.
ME3 - we all seen it. From hype and high spirits to board that could rival 4Chan's /b/.
The pattern is obvious - forums became toxic after released product fail to meet expectations.
It is always easier to blame growing negativity on trolls, kids or, famous EA phrase, "vocal minority". But that doesn't change fact that community reaction is tightly connected with quality of released producs.

Modifié par Cultist, 11 février 2013 - 08:08 .