311 réponses à ce sujet

[Credit2team]

my 2 cents:
currently it does 50% damage to armor, turn that into a 10% damage and I call the gun very well balanced

it would still be godlike against phantoms, hunters, rocket troopers, etc, but would be weak against bosses, making it a niche weapon like the acolyte, basically it would be only useful on classes that have a power that melts armor (flamer, incinerate, smash, etc) instead of being the perfect weapon for all classes

[TheKillerAngel]

thewalrusx wrote...

my 2 cents:
currently it does 50% damage to armor, turn that into a 10% damage and I call the gun very well balanced

it would still be godlike against phantoms, hunters, rocket troopers, etc, but would be weak against bosses, making it a niche weapon like the acolyte, basically it would be only useful on classes that have a power that melts armor (flamer, incinerate, smash, etc) instead of being the perfect weapon for all classes

It's not the perfect weapon for all classes. Far from it.

[Deerber]

thewalrusx wrote...

my 2 cents:
currently it does 50% damage to armor, turn that into a 10% damage and I call the gun very well balanced

it would still be godlike against phantoms, hunters, rocket troopers, etc, but would be weak against bosses, making it a niche weapon like the acolyte, basically it would be only useful on classes that have a power that melts armor (flamer, incinerate, smash, etc) instead of being the perfect weapon for all classes

The problem with changing that % is that it doesn't affect ammo damage. And as it is now, against armor it's ammo which is already doing a big chunk of the damage. It wouldn't change much, I think...

[Feneckus]

Cyonan wrote...

If the Shadow wants to tank, the player picks another character =P

You know what I mean. The last 3 points of fitness don't mean anything for a Shadow, she'll have the same durability regardless. However, it makes a massive difference for a Krogan. If he wants to headbutt everything, he's gotta have a ****load of shields, but then he has to spend more time headbutting because he's doing less damage, which means he's taking more punishment. Beyond retarded.

Meanwhile, infiltrators get Tactical Cloak, which is better than shields most of the time, a 40 or 80% damage boost and another 50% on top of that because obviously 40-80% isn't enough, infiltrators have to be the best at every single thing. A Krogan Sentinel only gets a 40% boost besides his fitness tree, and he has a below 1 multiplier against defenses. Disguting.

I don't want Shadow Strike to be nerfed though, it's a terrible power. But when an Asari Infiltrator is a much better melee fighter than a 1-ton Krogan, you know Bioware has really no idea what they're doing.

Why do you think balance is neccessary in a PvE game?

Because I want Krogans to be the best melee fighters and the most durable.

Because I want soldiers to be the best weapon specialists.

Because I want engineers to have the best tech powers.

Because I want sentinels to be the most versatile class.

Because I don't want to realize that I'm more or less handicapping myself when I'm not using a certain kit/weapon.

Because I care about the game, basically.

[K_O_513]

Feneckus wrote...

Rad_Rage wrote...

Her biggest strength lies in 1v1 combat. Against a group she's not as effective (unless you spam Electric Slash) unlike a Krogan who can tank unlike any other.

If a Krogan wants to "tank", he has to sacrifice melee damage. Same thing with every other class actually. The Shadow doesn't have that problem.

True, because she's not meant to tank. You can sacrifice damage for durability with her but it won't make a difference because she's still very fragile. That's an issue with the way skill trees are set up as well as Krogans not being as adept at melee as most would want rather than Shadow Strike or the Shadow herself being overpowered. Hell, melee in general isn't really that viable on higher difficulties. That's an issue with the game itself rather than a few characters.

[megabeast37215]

Cyonan, Annomander and Feneckus... I will be updating this thread regularly. This should be a good debate.

[Silvair]

Cyonan wrote...

Feneckus wrote...

If a Krogan wants to "tank", he has to sacrifice melee damage. Same thing with every other class actually. The Shadow doesn't have that problem.

If the Shadow wants to tank, the player picks another character =P

Though to go back to the Reegar(or rather balance in general) to those who think that most of the game needs nerfing I would ask this:

Why do you think balance is neccessary in a PvE game?

Please note that I am not saying I think balance is not neccessary in a PvE game.

Just so that one person with one weapon doesn't totally outclass everyone else using different weapons.

People don't care if they "won" if they didn't get to DO anything because the other guy killed everything WAYYY too fast.

The most extreme example of this being the missile glitchers.

[Zjarcal]

Cyonan wrote...

Though to go back to the Reegar(or rather balance in general) to those who think that most of the game needs nerfing I would ask this:

Why do you think balance is neccessary in a PvE game?

Please note that I am not saying I think balance is not neccessary in a PvE game.

Not that I think half of the game needs nerfing (not even close), but balance is necessary on any game no matter its nature. When things are terribly imbalanced, it just usually ends up killing the fun of actually coming up with different strategies to win, not to mention that if there are elements that effectively remove the challenge from the game, that's not fun at all either.

PERFECT balance though, that's not necessary, and I'd actually argue that in a PvE game, imperfect balance that still allows everything to shine is what's actually optimal.

[ISHYGDDT]

Cyonan wrote...

Feneckus wrote...

If a Krogan wants to "tank", he has to sacrifice melee damage. Same thing with every other class actually. The Shadow doesn't have that problem.

If the Shadow wants to tank, the player picks another character =P

Though to go back to the Reegar(or rather balance in general) to those who think that most of the game needs nerfing I would ask this:

Why do you think balance is neccessary in a PvE game?

Please note that I am not saying I think balance is not neccessary in a PvE game.

I personally don't think anything needs nerfing (although I'm on the fence about the Reegar) but balance is necessary in a co-op game because when one strategy is clearly superior to all others, there becomes no reason (aside from the need some people have to be contrarian) to choose other strategies.  This leads to the game losing depth, and leads to quick boredom.  True balance (between two choices) is acheived when it's actually difficult to decide which choice to pick because either choice necessesitates compromises of comparable value.

Modifié par ISHYGDDT, 04 février 2013 - 08:42 .

[Schneidend]

Feneckus wrote...
It is. But since when do we judge weapons by how they perform on a GI ?

The best weapon for him, arguably, is the Talon, and like you said, nobody's calling for a Talon nerf because on other classes the damage isn't that great while the GI can one clip an Atlas with it, and its range is kind of lackluster while the GI can snipe with it. On a standard class it's a good, light weapon that's relatively good at stripping shields/barriers. On a GI, it's 4/7 shot Claymore 

Also, the range argument is irrelevant.

Not a big deal at all on Glacier/Goddess/White. Maybe Jade as well.

Praetorians are no threat because you're doing so much damage you can "stunlock" them.

Phantoms and Dragoons rush you and you end up fighting them in CQC 90% of the time anyway. Phantoms are also far less dangerous in CQC so it's actually a lot safer to deal with them with a Reegar.

You'll always win a 1vs1 vs Pyros/Hunters/Bombers. Hell, even 1vs3.

So the only thing that makes the weapon "balanced" is irrelevant. And of course I'm not even talking about infiltrators/vanguards/havocs who can get close at will.

How often are you fighting those enemies 1v1 in a vacuum? Virtually never. It's balanced because standing around out of cover firing a weapon carries with it an element of high risk when you could be picked off by Marauders or other groups of high RoF enemies. To balance that, the weapon deals high damage to reward the player taking said risk. Basic game design.

[Cyonan]

So based on the responses to my question I see the following themes:

> An overpowered character means using other kits feels like gimping yourself
> It's fun to come up with varying strategies to win. An overpowered character leads to everyone picking it which makes the game boring.

Is not taking the Reegar really gimping yourself?

As has been noted in this thread, the Geth Infiltrator is more optimal with other weapons(such as the Talon). This is the highest damage dealing character in the game. That's just one example, there are of course other characters who can use non-Reegar weapons just as effectively, if not more effectively.

I believe it was you yourself Feneckus that argued what an amazing gun the Typhoon is for the N7 Destroyer(and many other kits).

To briefly touch on Warp + Incendiary Rounds, this is a bug and should be fixed.

As for the one I was excepting: It's not fun when everybody is playing something because it's absurdly overpowered.

In order for this argument to be satisfied, then the game must be balanced to the point where the majority of players are experimenting with other kits. Once you don't see something being used a lot more often than everything else you can make the argument that the argument is no longer valid because people aren't all playing the same thing. There's a bit of the reverse in here as far as things being underused as well.

I don't suspect that me saying I rarely see Reegars or TGI/Harriers in my pugs is going to mean a whole lot around here(It also means you saying you always see it means nothing, by the way =P), though BioWare is the only one with the numbers. They know when 30% of all players on Gold are using a single class, and have shown they will nerf it if that is the case =P

To address the other half of that, if for you personally only playing one kit is boring and you don't feel like you can use anything but a Reegar Kroguard without being gimped then you're probably a min/maxer even if you don't want to admit it, which would suggest that if the Reegar Kroguard and the TGI Harrier got nerfed, as soon as the community found a new "best" you would simply move to that. Repeat forever because there will always be a "best" kit to use.

It's possible that the gap is just a bit to wide for you personally, but that's getting way too much into subjective opinions, and trying to argue about something that subjective about as useful as ****** on a Hanar.

[Feneckus]

Cyonan wrote...

Is not taking the Reegar really gimping yourself?

As has been noted in this thread, the Geth Infiltrator is more optimal with other weapons(such as the Talon). This is the highest damage dealing character in the game.

And that's exactly why the Reegar is a poor choice on him. Killing something in 0.2s instead of 0.4s isn't really a big deal. His accuracy bonuses go to waste. His ROF bonuses aren't needed at all.

However, on a normal character, why use a Raider when you can use a Reegar ? They have similar range. The Reegar is lighter and does a lot more damage. Why use a Talon ? Again, similar range if you're out of cover and the weight difference is not a big deal since you can deal 10 times more damage. Same thing with the Hurricane ...

[TheKillerAngel]

Feneckus wrote...

Cyonan wrote...

Is not taking the Reegar really gimping yourself?

As has been noted in this thread, the Geth Infiltrator is more optimal with other weapons(such as the Talon). This is the highest damage dealing character in the game.

And that's exactly why the Reegar is a poor choice on him. Killing something in 0.2s instead of 0.4s isn't really a big deal. His accuracy bonuses go to waste. His ROF bonuses aren't needed at all.

However, on a normal character, why use a Raider when you can use a Reegar ? They have similar range. The Reegar is lighter and does a lot more damage. Why use a Talon ? Again, similar range if you're out of cover and the weight difference is not a big deal since you can deal 10 times more damage. Same thing with the Hurricane ...

That's really a stretch. The Raider, Talon, and Hurricane are all longer ranged than the Reegar.

[Credit2team]

Deerber wrote...

thewalrusx wrote...

my 2 cents:
currently it does 50% damage to armor, turn that into a 10% damage and I call the gun very well balanced

it would still be godlike against phantoms, hunters, rocket troopers, etc, but would be weak against bosses, making it a niche weapon like the acolyte, basically it would be only useful on classes that have a power that melts armor (flamer, incinerate, smash, etc) instead of being the perfect weapon for all classes

The problem with changing that % is that it doesn't affect ammo damage. And as it is now, against armor it's ammo which is already doing a big chunk of the damage. It wouldn't change much, I think...

really? well prehaps thats the issue  right there, the ammo damage needs to be beased on actual damage done rather than theoretical damage. 

[K_O_513]

Feneckus wrote...

Cyonan wrote...

Is not taking the Reegar really gimping yourself?

As has been noted in this thread, the Geth Infiltrator is more optimal with other weapons(such as the Talon). This is the highest damage dealing character in the game.

And that's exactly why the Reegar is a poor choice on him. Killing something in 0.2s instead of 0.4s isn't really a big deal. His accuracy bonuses go to waste. His ROF bonuses aren't needed at all.

However, on a normal character, why use a Raider when you can use a Reegar ? They have similar range. The Reegar is lighter and does a lot more damage. Why use a Talon ? Again, similar range if you're out of cover and the weight difference is not a big deal since you can deal 10 times more damage. Same thing with the Hurricane ...

So the only weapon you ever use on a "normal character" is the Reegar Carbine?

[Cyonan]

TheKillerAngel wrote...

Feneckus wrote...

Cyonan wrote...

Is not taking the Reegar really gimping yourself?

As has been noted in this thread, the Geth Infiltrator is more optimal with other weapons(such as the Talon). This is the highest damage dealing character in the game.

And that's exactly why the Reegar is a poor choice on him. Killing something in 0.2s instead of 0.4s isn't really a big deal. His accuracy bonuses go to waste. His ROF bonuses aren't needed at all.

However, on a normal character, why use a Raider when you can use a Reegar ? They have similar range. The Reegar is lighter and does a lot more damage. Why use a Talon ? Again, similar range if you're out of cover and the weight difference is not a big deal since you can deal 10 times more damage. Same thing with the Hurricane ...

That's really a stretch. The Raider, Talon, and Hurricane are all longer ranged than the Reegar.

Talon and Hurricane I would agree, Raider even with a Smart Choke has an effective range that's not a whole lot longer than the Reegar's.

However, it's not like the AT-12 doesn't deal massive burst damage either that outright kills most non bosses while being able to benefit from penetration to hit multiple targets(or the same target multiple times in the case of the Atlas).

[TheKillerAngel]

Cyonan wrote...

TheKillerAngel wrote...

Feneckus wrote...

Cyonan wrote...

Is not taking the Reegar really gimping yourself?

As has been noted in this thread, the Geth Infiltrator is more optimal with other weapons(such as the Talon). This is the highest damage dealing character in the game.

And that's exactly why the Reegar is a poor choice on him. Killing something in 0.2s instead of 0.4s isn't really a big deal. His accuracy bonuses go to waste. His ROF bonuses aren't needed at all.

However, on a normal character, why use a Raider when you can use a Reegar ? They have similar range. The Reegar is lighter and does a lot more damage. Why use a Talon ? Again, similar range if you're out of cover and the weight difference is not a big deal since you can deal 10 times more damage. Same thing with the Hurricane ...

That's really a stretch. The Raider, Talon, and Hurricane are all longer ranged than the Reegar.

Talon and Hurricane I would agree, Raider even with a Smart Choke has an effective range that's not a whole lot longer than the Reegar's.

However, it's not like the AT-12 doesn't deal massive burst damage either that outright kills most non bosses while being able to benefit from penetration to hit multiple targets(or the same target multiple times in the case of the Atlas).

On a class with accuracy boosts (Hunter mode, marksman, devastator mode) the Raider really shines and gains more versatility than the Reegar though.

[Cyonan]

TheKillerAngel wrote...

On a class with accuracy boosts (Hunter mode, marksman, devastator mode) the Raider really shines and gains more versatility than the Reegar though.

Yes, though I suspect that Feneckus was specifically talking about characters without accuracy boosts.

[Feneckus]

TheKillerAngel wrote...

That's really a stretch. The Raider, Talon, and Hurricane are all longer ranged than the Reegar.

Not really. To do significant damage, you have to get inside reegar range. Especially true with the Raider. Even at point blank, if you headshot a nemesis some pellets will miss ...

And out of cover, the Talon and Hurricane have crappy range. A tad better than the Reegar's, but it's nothing compared to the massive advantages the Reegar has over those weapons. Moving 2m closer to kill something twice as fast, that's a pretty good deal if you ask me.

Rad_Rage wrote...

So the only weapon you ever use on a "normal character" is the Reegar Carbine?

Hell no, I don't use that weapon. I was just arguing that it does make a few weapons totally obsolete if you really care about being the most effective you can be.

[Xeraphas]

No... The Reager is not overpowered. It has a limited range compared to other weapons.

I think the most overpowered weapons in Mass Effect are the Praetorian eye lasers and the Geth Prime plasma blaster. When do you think players will get to equip those weapons? LOL

[K_O_513]

Feneckus wrote...

Rad_Rage wrote...

So the only weapon you ever use on a "normal character" is the Reegar Carbine?

Hell no, I don't use that weapon. I was just arguing that it does make a few weapons totally obsolete if you really care about being the most effective you can be.

Oh ok I see. But does anyone really play like that though? I mean does everyone only use 2-3 weapons because they're so much better than everything else? Of course when it comes to weapons of the same class and weight people think along those lines but does anyone really say "I'm not going to use anything other than the Reegar and Harrier because they're so much better than anything else"?

[Fortack]

Cyonan wrote...

So based on the responses to my question I see the following themes:

> An overpowered character means using other kits feels like gimping yourself
> It's fun to come up with varying strategies to win. An overpowered character leads to everyone picking it which makes the game boring.

Is not taking the Reegar really gimping yourself?

There's a difference between OP and OP No, the Reegar isn't massively OP, there are plenty of other weapons that can get the job done fast enough. But yes, the Reegar is OP when you compare its performance (and how easy it is to use) with the other weapons that require getting close enough to the enemy to deal high damage.

[Chrxna]

Lord Rosario wrote...

Well, seeing that you're too absorbed in your own opinion to see any sort of reason besides pointing at a single thing and going "obvious troll for that bit right there" while ignoring the rest.. I think I'll just drop this. Have fun with your thoughts of my intelligence.

You don't play the game the way I play it. I hate you. 

[Cyonan]

Fortack wrote...
There's a difference between OP and OP No, the Reegar isn't massively OP, there are plenty of other weapons that can get the job done fast enough. But yes, the Reegar is OP when you compare its performance (and how easy it is to use) with the other weapons that require getting close enough to the enemy to deal high damage.

That's a statement being thrown a lot that I'm going to have to call out.

Throw the Reegar on your average pug and they will more often than not be on the floor bleeding out. This is not the hallmark of an "easy to use weapon", such as the Krysae pre-nerf.

You also need to compare it without using Warp(this is a bug) and without using theoretical numbers(they're wrong).

It also helps when people don't claim the Wraith has an effective range around the same as the Reegar =P

[Lord Rosario]

Chrxna wrote...

Lord Rosario wrote...

Well, seeing that you're too absorbed in your own opinion to see any sort of reason besides pointing at a single thing and going "obvious troll for that bit right there" while ignoring the rest.. I think I'll just drop this. Have fun with your thoughts of my intelligence.

You don't play the game the way I play it. I hate you. 

17 hours later.. Also, yes, that is exactly that I was saying that he was saying.  We're past that now though.