311 réponses à ce sujet

[HiddenInWar]

When enemies get shot with the Reegar, it isn't going to tickle. It's essentially a liquid lightning gun. Nerfing it, at least to me, would be unrealistic because of the sheer power it invokes.

[eddie1111]

yea reegar is pretty overpowered! NOTTT... gotta love how you cant kill anything beyond maybe 20 meters of you


reegar is not over overpowered at all! it comes with a cost and thats the range! its the best close combat weapon ingame to me

[Fortack]

Cyonan wrote...

Fortack wrote...
There's a difference between OP and OP No, the Reegar isn't massively OP, there are plenty of other weapons that can get the job done fast enough. But yes, the Reegar is OP when you compare its performance (and how easy it is to use) with the other weapons that require getting close enough to the enemy to deal high damage.

That's a statement being thrown a lot that I'm going to have to call out.

Throw the Reegar on your average pug and they will more often than not be on the floor bleeding out. This is not the hallmark of an "easy to use weapon", such as the Krysae pre-nerf.

You also need to compare it without using Warp(this is a bug) and without using theoretical numbers(they're wrong).

It also helps when people don't claim the Wraith has an effective range around the same as the Reegar =P

I don't see how the average pug is related to something being over-powered or not. Someone who constantly dies with the Reegar is a poor player who's going to die a lot more when using other close range weapons. And in case they don't get close enough  they will be near useless teammates anyway.

You don't need Warp, only ammo to help deal with armor. You can melt bosses a lot faster using the the Reegar without than the Claymore with the warp glitch.

The Wraith is decent at best at range. When you're not going to spend a lot of time in CQC there are a lot of other weapons available that are better than the Wraith. To make the Wraith shine you do need to be in Reegar-range most of the time, hence why I don't really consider range to be a significant drawback. To properly judge something the least we should do is compare it when used in (near) optimal circumstances.

[Cyonan]

Fortack wrote...
I don't see how the average pug is related to something being over-powered or not. Someone who constantly dies with the Reegar is a poor player who's going to die a lot more when using other close range weapons. And in case they don't get close enough  they will be near useless teammates anyway.

You don't need Warp, only ammo to help deal with armor. You can melt bosses a lot faster using the the Reegar without than the Claymore with the warp glitch.

The Wraith is decent at best at range. When you're not going to spend a lot of time in CQC there are a lot of other weapons available that are better than the Wraith. To make the Wraith shine you do need to be in Reegar-range most of the time, hence why I don't really consider range to be a significant drawback. To properly judge something the least we should do is compare it when used in (near) optimal circumstances.

The average pug is also the average player. This relates back to when I said BioWare has to ask "Around what skill level do we want to balance our game around?". You might say "Easy, the best" but that's only 1% of the community.

Some would make the argument that it's best to balance around the majority rather than the minority in a game like Mass Effect 3.

The Wraith can reliably 1 shot trash mobs and get all 8 pellets on larger targets at a very considerable distance if you're hip firing it, which makes it more accurate. It's no Javelin but certainly can 1 shot trash mobs well beyond Reegar range if you're using a Smart Choke and hip firing.

Though this thread seems to have a very strange idea of accuracy of pellet based weapons. Apparently my Talon, Wraith, and AT-12 all have roughly the same spread.

Modifié par Cyonan, 05 février 2013 - 12:33 .

[Jay_Hoxtatron]

My intelligent and well argumented answer : ur mom

[heybigmoney]

Imo GI-javelin or TGI-harrier are both considerably more lethal than any of the warp-incendiary reegar spammers. Don't see how you can be fine with either of those kits if you think reegar spammage is OP.

Theoretical dps doesn't match in game results. You can't maintain dmg output if you have to constantly run from one side of the map the next.

[Cyonan]

heybigmoney wrote...

Imo GI-javelin or TGI-harrier are both considerably more lethal than any of the warp-incendiary reegar spammers. Don't see how you can be fine with either of those kits if you think reegar spammage is OP.

Theoretical dps doesn't match in game results. You can't maintain dmg output if you have to constantly run from one side of the map the next.

I'm pretty sure a lot of them aren't =P

[heybigmoney]

Cyonan wrote...

heybigmoney wrote...

Imo GI-javelin or TGI-harrier are both considerably more lethal than any of the warp-incendiary reegar spammers. Don't see how you can be fine with either of those kits if you think reegar spammage is OP.

Theoretical dps doesn't match in game results. You can't maintain dmg output if you have to constantly run from one side of the map the next.

I'm pretty sure a lot of them aren't =P

Well, I'm recognizing some ppl from the "GI is perfectly balanced and so is the harrier" camp, and its difficult for me to swallow this idea that the reegar and the classes who synergize best with it are suddenly the straw that broke the camel's back.

[Zjarcal]

heybigmoney wrote...

Imo GI-javelin or TGI-harrier are both considerably more lethal than any of the warp-incendiary reegar spammers. Don't see how you can be fine with either of those kits if you think reegar spammage is OP.

Theoretical dps doesn't match in game results. You can't maintain dmg output if you have to constantly run from one side of the map the next.

GI Javelin at least requires that you can actually aim. Even regular body shots take more skill than just spamming the Reegar.

Mind you, even if I said earlier I don't like the Reegar, I really don't care about people using it.

[enigmagtx]

due to the "it locks up when you get stunned while reloading" (I should know b/c I used it solo vs geth) it's not op it's a joke.

[Qui-Gon Glenn]

In a PUG match last night with my Talon IX Kroguard, I scored 150k/ rest scored ~70k each.

Talon therefore must be OP, or the KroGuard is. If I ran with the Reegar and exploited stairs/ramps on sync-killers, I might have scored 20-30k more, but not necessarily -- I obviously (by score) was hitting the spawns faster and harder than any of the others. They all contributed but had to be content cleaning up scraps.

I again contend, as I think the OP is arguing, that players are OP, not guns. OP players need to let go of wishing for nerfs on certain powerful Rare weapons that will not affect them in the slightest as they are proficient with all guns at this point. Let the less skilled players have a crutch that might coax them out of shamebox or out of wall spamming or ...

Then it is no longer a crutch weapon, it is a training tool.

Modifié par Qui-Gon Glenn, 05 février 2013 - 02:43 .

[DHKany]

But will it blend?

[DHKany]

Qui-Gon Glenn wrote...

Then it is no longer a crutch weapon, it is a training tool.

So you're saying that a weapon that can single handedly make a farmer/silver/bronze player a good platinum/gold player, it is not a crutch? 

So in essence, the Pre-Nerf Krysae wasn't an overpowered crutch weapon but meerly training wheels? 

[me0120]

Jay_Hoxtatron wrote...

My intelligent and well argumented answer : ur mom

My mother is a saint.

[Qui-Gon Glenn]

Blend, puree and frappe.

Will also juice, and has attachments for meat grinding.

Comes with a complete set of Ginsu knives and 10 Shamwows.

Order now and the Ghost of Billy Mays will double your order.

Inventory is limited, don't wait, order nao!!!!

1(800)FIREHOZ

EDIT: pre-nerf Krysae killed spawns from range from what I heard... Back then I ignored sniper rifles 
Reegar does require LoS and close range; bad analogy IMO

EDIT2: I hate iPhone safari browser. Sorry for double post rather than edit

Modifié par Qui-Gon Glenn, 05 février 2013 - 02:58 .

[me0120]

Qui-Gon Glenn wrote...

EDIT: pre-nerf Krysae killed spawns from range from what I heard... Back then I ignored sniper rifles 
Reegar does require LoS and close range; bad analogy IMO

The pre-nerf Krysae was practically a missile glitch. The Reegar and pre-nerf Krysae are so different in execution it is ridiculous. 

[Grunt_Platform]

Y'know. The Reegar's got more drawbacks than I think people acknowledge

- Really poor ammo capacity, especially with the ROF-ammo bug. Pretty much requires spare ammo bonuses.
- Extremely hard to conserve ammo, due to small clip, high ROF, and the ROF-ammo bug.
- Significant charge up time before firing (just long enough that any flinch effect can keep you from firing).
- When not abusing Incendiary stacks, its armor damage really is bad.
- Flaky hit detection.

I still think there's room to reduce its synergy with anti-armor ammo (something like slashing its ROF and damage slightly), but there's a reason it's not more popular. If you have to be a good player to not run into all its drawbacks it's not actually easy to use. Boring, maybe, but not easy.

[Zjarcal]

EvanKester wrote...

- When not abusing Incendiary stacks, its armor damage really is bad.

Not really. Using HVB and Shredder combined, you can kill a gold Brute as fast as with a PPR or Typhoon equipped with HVB and capacity; tested this myself because I also was convinced the armor damage sucked without consumables, but with those two mods it really doesn't. Granted equipping those two mods means no spare ammo mod (as well as increased weight that does actually work since it's a dlc weapon), so there's also a drawback to it.

I definitely think its effectiveness against armor should be reduced further, because I feel that if it really sucked against armor even with consumables, it would actually be a well balanced weapon (good for mooks, terrible for bosses).

Modifié par Zjarcal, 05 février 2013 - 04:31 .

[mpompeo27]

Cyonan wrote...

The balance of the Reegar is strange.

The downside to the Reegar is that you need to be at very close ranges for it to hit things with accuracy doing nothing for it. For the average player this brings a greatly increased risk since they are not all that great at utilizing soft cover and the right hand advantage.

Of course as captain obvious will no doubt point out in this thread, good players can completely negate this because they can actually use soft cover and the right hand advantage properly to negate almost all of the increased risk of a CQC weapon(see also Geth Infiltrator). At this point the gun's weakness falls to the armour modifier which can again be negated by ammo powers that completely ignore it.

So is it overpowered?

In the hands of the average player I would say no.

In the hands of the skilled player I would say yes.

Oh, and Warp + Incendiary Rounds + Reegar is just hilariously overpowered, but that is a bug and not entirely the fault of the Reegar Carbine.

If it's only overpowered in the hands of the highly skilled players, then it's just plain not overpowered. You basically just said, "It's a really good gun as long as you're really good at the game" which means that player skill is the determining factor, not the gun itself. Thus, not overpowered.

[CitizenThom]

No, the Reager is a risk/reward weapon. On many characters you have to bring a second weapon if you go with the Reegar... or you'll be doing a lot of nothing on hack objectives...and then you'll have too much to do when all the enemies get within range.

[StarCynic]

Quoting from my own post on page #2 of this mess:

StarCynic wrote...

From Hardcoresalmon's weapon test:

Hardcoresalmon wrote...
Reload Canceling:
47. Katana X: 16.0s (SC/HVB)
46. Scimitar X: 15.2s (SC/HVB)
43. Eviscerator X: 14.0s (SC/HVB)
36. Disciple X: 12.2s (SC/HVB)
20. Graal X: 9.2s (SC/D)
17. Reegar X: 8.5s (P/HVB)
16. GPS X: 8.4s (C/D)
12. Wraith X: 7.0s (SC/HVB)
9. Claymore X: 6.8s (SC/HVB)
6. Crusader V: 6.7s (P/HVB)
2. Raider X: 5.4s (SC/HVB)
1. Piranha X: 5.2s (SC/HVB)

That's the Reegar without using Incendiary Ammo.
Good, but far from OP.
And quite a bit behind the Raider and Piranha.

Any OP'ness of the Reegar is due to the ****g Incendiary Ammo stacking.
Is that so hard to understand?

And it's still not the only gun that "benefits" from that effect, any rapid fire weapon does so ...

As for the people wanting to nerf the vs-armor damage even more: That'd make the gun extremely pointless - any CQC-kit has ways to easily deal with mooks already. Its use is as a boss- and phantom-killer. Take away the boss-killing-power, and you could just as well remove the weapon from the game entirely, as it'd be ... trash.
High ammo-consumption coupled with a very small spare ammo capacity -> kill half a dozen mooks -> return to ammo box.
Just as bad as the Harrier in this regard, just that you can't simply camp the ammo-box, as you need to get in CQC and back out safely.

Have any of you nay-sayers actually USED the Reegar at some time?
To me, it seems like you just repeat what you heard from someone who heard it from someone who has no clue ........

Modifié par StarCynic, 05 février 2013 - 05:02 .

[orehlol]

Yeah the lolreegar is definately Overpowered it's in every Platinum Speed Run

[Zjarcal]

StarCynic wrote...

Quoting from my own post on page #2 of this mess:

*snip*

That's the Reegar without using Incendiary Ammo.
Good, but far from OP.
And quite a bit behind the Raider and Piranha.

Any OP'ness of the Reegar is due to the ****g Incendiary Ammo stacking.
Is that so hard to understand?

And it's still not the only gun that "benefits" from that effect, any rapid fire weapon does so ...

As for the people wanting to nerf the vs-armor damage even more: That'd make the gun extremely pointless - any CQC-kit has ways to easily deal with mooks already. Its use is as a boss- and phantom-killer. Take away the boss-killing-power, and you could just as well remove the weapon from the game entirely, as it'd be ... trash.
High ammo-consumption coupled with a very small spare ammo capacity -> kill half a dozen mooks -> return to ammo box.
Just as bad as the Harrier in this regard, just that you can't simply camp the ammo-box, as you need to get in CQC and back out safely.

Have any of you nay-sayers actually USED the Reegar at some time?
To me, it seems like you just repeat what you heard from someone who heard it from someone who has no clue ........

To be fair about those numbers, since those tests were done without consumables, the armor penalty was in full effect, but ammo damage isn't affected by the penalty, so the Reegar can actually get very close (or even surpass) the top shotguns against armor once you're using AP, Warp, or Incendiary.

An extra armor penalty wouldn't make it pointless. It will still clean mooks, elite mooks (marauders, hunters, collector captians, etc.) and phantoms way easier and faster than any other weapon could. The weapon just doesn't require you to even aim properly, so for people who have sucky aim it'll still be good. Hell, you could drop its weight significantly to allow players to bring a secondary weapon for bosses.

It's clear Bioware didn't intend for the weapon to be good against armor (hence the penalty), but with consumables circumventing the penalty, that design choice isn't really true as it is. If the penalty actually applied to consumables, there'd be no real need to increase it.

At any rate, I really don't care if Bioware nerfs it or not, but I think the weapon as it is too cheesy and boring, whereas with a proper armor penalty at least it could be interesting to use.

P.S.: Yes, I've used the reegar quite a bit, as recent as a week ago in fact.

Modifié par Zjarcal, 05 février 2013 - 06:03 .

[StarCynic]

Zjarcal wrote...
To be fair about those numbers, since those tests were done without consumables, the armor penalty was in full effect, but ammo damage isn't affected by the penalty, so the Reegar can actually get very close (or even surpass) the top shotguns against armor once you're using AP, Warp, or Incendiary.

An extra armor penalty wouldn't make it pointless. It will still clean mooks, elite mooks (marauders, hunters, collector captians, etc.) and phantoms way easier and faster than any other weapon could. The weapon just doesn't require you to even aim properly, so for people who have sucky aim it'll still be good. Hell, you could drop its weight significantly to allow players to bring a secondary weapon for bosses.

It's clear Bioware didn't intend for the weapon to be good against armor (hence the penalty), but with consumables circumventing the penalty, that design choice isn't really true as it is. If the penalty actually applied to consumables, there'd be no real need to increase it.

At any rate, I really don't care if Bioware nerfs it or not, but I think the weapon as it is too cheesy and boring, whereas with a proper armor penalty at least it could be interesting to use.

P.S.: Yes, I've used the reegar quite a bit, as recent as a week ago in fact.

1. True, ammo bypasses armor. So why is the gun the problem, and not the ammo?
And why is it only a problem on the Reegar, and not on all the other rapid fire weapons?
'Guess one-clip'ing an Atlas from range with a Hurricane needs a lot more skill ... oh, wait ...

2. Waaaaiiit!
You lost me there.
How is "get close and use Reegar with its 0.5s fire delay" any easier than "OSOK with Claymore/Wraith/Widow/BW/Javelin/whatever from a distance"?
Also ... why would you carry a short-range-mook-only-killer-gun if you're carrying a ranged boss killer along with it? Why not ... you know ... just use that?

3. Alternate theory, slightly less convoluted:
Bioware obviously intended a high-risk-high-reward-CQC-weapon.
Shield/Barrier/Armor damage values were balanced so that actual killspeed matched with those goals.
Occam's Razor, anyone?

4. not directly targeted at you, but ...
What is it these days that makes people think a gun or power should be as hard to use as possible?
What is it that makes them ask to fight the gun to shoot where you want to, instead of ... actually fighting the enemy?
When did aiming become so easy that everyone managed 100% headshots the second they started playing their first shooter?
When did situational awareness and tactics become inbred traits for all humanity from birth?

Guys, get real: go and look at some real casual players, and how they play, how they aim ... Yes, those 80+% that won't ever come to this forum, that play games simply to kill some stuff and have fun.
Do you reall think that making games impossible for them to play is a good idea?
Hint: Game companies won't make any money if they tailor games to the top couple thousand players. ... well, unless each of you is prepared to pay 50k$ per game.

"Easy to use" is not bad! "Easy to use" does not prevent highly skilled people from outperforming the less skilled. But it makes games accesible. -> it is NECESSARY! INEVITABLE!
Deal with it.

[CoffeeHolic93]

StarCynic wrote...

1. True, ammo bypasses armor. So why is the gun the problem, and not the ammo?
And why is it only a problem on the Reegar, and not on all the other rapid fire weapons?
'Guess one-clip'ing an Atlas from range with a Hurricane needs a lot more skill ... oh, wait ...

2. Waaaaiiit!
You lost me there.
How is "get close and use Reegar with its 0.5s fire delay" any easier than "OSOK with Claymore/Wraith/Widow/BW/Javelin/whatever from a distance"?
Also ... why would you carry a short-range-mook-only-killer-gun if you're carrying a ranged boss killer along with it? Why not ... you know ... just use that?

3. Alternate theory, slightly less convoluted:
Bioware obviously intended a high-risk-high-reward-CQC-weapon.
Shield/Barrier/Armor damage values were balanced so that actual killspeed matched with those goals.
Occam's Razor, anyone?

4. not directly targeted at you, but ...
What is it these days that makes people think a gun or power should be as hard to use as possible?
What is it that makes them ask to fight the gun to shoot where you want to, instead of ... actually fighting the enemy?
When did aiming become so easy that everyone managed 100% headshots the second they started playing their first shooter?
When did situational awareness and tactics become inbred traits for all humanity from birth?

Guys, get real: go and look at some real casual players, and how they play, how they aim ... Yes, those 80+% that won't ever come to this forum, that play games simply to kill some stuff and have fun.
Do you reall think that making games impossible for them to play is a good idea?
Hint: Game companies won't make any money if they tailor games to the top couple thousand players. ... well, unless each of you is prepared to pay 50k$ per game.

"Easy to use" is not bad! "Easy to use" does not prevent highly skilled people from outperforming the less skilled. But it makes games accesible. -> it is NECESSARY! INEVITABLE!
Deal with it.

1. Oneclipping an Atlas with theHurricane takes time which exposes you to incoming fire/requires being in soft cover for an extended period of time which leaves you open to flanking enemies.

2. Reason has already been stated. While all of the weapon you mentioned require some degree of aim, and the Javelin requires Phasic rounds to body-shot enemies which is the same "ammo power required" "problem" that the Reegar has against armor. Very easily circumvented and not a problem in practice. With the Reegar you aim it in the general direction of a cluster and stuff melts. It isn't hard to use.

As far as your third point goes, I would like to direct you to the bottom of your post. If you claim that there's high risk involved with using the Reegar when you later claim that it's easy to use? Getting that close to enemies isn't a problem for new players thanks to Vanguards and Infiltrators, and the reward for getting that close is obscene. Low risk insane reward. This is a problem like farming making gold accessible to people not willing to either learn to survive without the "stay in one spot cowering in fear hoping to get good objectives" or staying in a difficulty they're comfortable with. The Reegar analogous to farming as it kills everything that isn't a boss in around a second and can easily kill clusters of enemies by holding down one button, without requiring that you aim in the slightest.

4. I agree with you here. Not all guns should be difficult to use, and a 1337 amount of skill shouldn't be required to pick up and play a game... But if a gun has a high reward, like the Javelin and Claymore being able to one-shot a lot of stuff, or the Wraith's amazing utility, the gun needs to have some kind of drawback to balance the reward.

The Javelin has the charge-before-it-shoots shtick going for it, which makes it harder to use than other sniper rifles, and it's as heavy as a Mako.

The Claymore requires you to be way closer than sniper range which makes it's one-shot chamber and slow reload-speed very risky if you aren't good at reload-cancelling. Missing a shot is also very bad as you will have killed zero enemies and you have to reload your gun.

The Wraith has it's rate of fire, making it less attractive on pure-weapon kits, but more attractive on caster-kits HOWEVER, in order to one-shot stuff you have to land a headshot which is more than what can be said about the Reegar.

What is the risk that counters the Reegar's reward? Eh... You have to press 1 to charge before everything is dead?