311 réponses à ce sujet

[Wsip79]

Leave Reegar alone...

[Feneckus]

StarCynic wrote...

Bioware obviously intended a high-risk-high-reward-CQC-weapon.

The Reegar doesn't fit that descripition.

Its a moderately low risk - stupidly high reward weapon. It's barely better than the pre nerf Krysae ...

StarCynic wrote...

Guys, get real: go and look at some real casual players, and how they play, how they aim ... Yes, those 80+% that won't ever come to this forum, that play games simply to kill some stuff and have fun.

I thought that was what Bronze and Silver were for 

I fail to see how having a weapon that trivializes gold+ and several weapons is good for the game.

[Charane]

Titus Thongger wrote...

I dont think its imba since you need to be really really close to enemies to use it and only a few classes are beefy enough to tank damage and use it at close quarters. and if you get a hack/escort objective your regulated to just being a meat shield against ravagers, geth primes and scions

This

[StarCynic]

Mi-Chan wrote...
1. Oneclipping an Atlas with theHurricane takes time which exposes you to incoming fire/requires being in soft cover for an extended period of time which leaves you open to flanking enemies.

2. Reason has already been stated. While all of the weapon you mentioned require some degree of aim, and the Javelin requires Phasic rounds to body-shot enemies which is the same "ammo power required" "problem" that the Reegar has against armor. Very easily circumvented and not a problem in practice. With the Reegar you aim it in the general direction of a cluster and stuff melts. It isn't hard to use.

As far as your third point goes, I would like to direct you to the bottom of your post. If you claim that there's high risk involved with using the Reegar when you later claim that it's easy to use? Getting that close to enemies isn't a problem for new players thanks to Vanguards and Infiltrators, and the reward for getting that close is obscene. Low risk insane reward. This is a problem like farming making gold accessible to people not willing to either learn to survive without the "stay in one spot cowering in fear hoping to get good objectives" or staying in a difficulty they're comfortable with. The Reegar analogous to farming as it kills everything that isn't a boss in around a second and can easily kill clusters of enemies by holding down one button, without requiring that you aim in the slightest.

4. I agree with you here. Not all guns should be difficult to use, and a 1337 amount of skill shouldn't be required to pick up and play a game... But if a gun has a high reward, like the Javelin and Claymore being able to one-shot a lot of stuff, or the Wraith's amazing utility, the gun needs to have some kind of drawback to balance the reward.

The Javelin has the charge-before-it-shoots shtick going for it, which makes it harder to use than other sniper rifles, and it's as heavy as a Mako.

The Claymore requires you to be way closer than sniper range which makes it's one-shot chamber and slow reload-speed very risky if you aren't good at reload-cancelling. Missing a shot is also very bad as you will have killed zero enemies and you have to reload your gun.

The Wraith has it's rate of fire, making it less attractive on pure-weapon kits, but more attractive on caster-kits HOWEVER, in order to one-shot stuff you have to land a headshot which is more than what can be said about the Reegar.

What is the risk that counters the Reegar's reward? Eh... You have to press 1 to charge before everything is dead?

0. Reegar on Vanguards and Infiltrators.
C'mon, this is pretty much a fallacy.
The only Vanguard that can reasonably make use of the Reegar is the KroGuard, it's too heavy otherwise, you'd get exposed in the open, waiting for BC cooldown on a squishy. Not a good idea, not even remotely.
Is the Reegar good on the KroGuard? Sure. Borderline OP even. Maybe even beyond borderline, though I'd argue that even with a Reegar, the KroGuards damage output isn't excactly stellar - he's just very hard to kill. But it's just THAT SINGLE KIT! Not "All Vanguards". (Okay, maybe the Volus ...)
As for Infiltrators ... you're kidding, right?
Any Infiltrator using a Reegar needs his head examined - the time used to close distance is time spend doing nothing. Use a ranged weapon and you'd kill whatever you wanted to kill before the Reegar-user can start shooting. And without being exposed in a dangerous spot afterwards.
The Infiltrator argument makes no sense at all for this gun.

1. "Shooting a Hurricane clip from softcover" takes more time and is more risky than "closing in and using the Reegar"?
Did you really just say that?
See above for why that's just nonsense.

2. You're ignoring the "get close" part again - this takes time also. Time dealing 0 (zero, nada, nil!) dps. Time that any kit using a ranged weapon can spend firing/killing.
You can't simply ignore that part.
If you do ... then any CQC kit ends up extremely underpowered, with no reason to play it.
Exception ... KroGuard. Yeah, fine. Now stop generalizing please.

3. Yes, I do indeed claim that it takes some skill to get into CQC-range without ending up dead, and just as much to get out of there again alive.
And more importantly: it takes time spend at 0 dps (yes, I'll repeat that one ad infitum, it's kinda the key issue)
Oh, and depending on the host's fps setting, it can actually be quite difficult when enemies fire at you as soon as you're even partially visible, instead of ignoring you for half a minute like on consoles (slight exaggeration) and sometimes even ignore TC.
Not everyone plays at 15 fps.
I'd also want to point out that you need to reload-cancel with the Reegar, too, it has the same 2.57s reload as the Claymore ... why does it take "skill" to do it on the Claymore, but none at all with the Reegar? Hello?

4. Did I mention "ad infinitum"? ... anyway, again:
The price you pay for the Reegar's high damage is the time spend to close into range. It's the added risk of ending up in an exposed position after using it.
That's what balances the higher damage potential of close range weapons against weapons with higher range ... or at least it should.

5. It's really just Incendiary Ammo that's a problem here.
All the +damage% values of ammo types scale with the gun's base dps, so aside from sweetspots where it takes one less clip/reload-animation to kill something, these ammo types don't upset the weapon rakings, provided you brought enough armor penetration ... which is something you'd do anyway to maximize damage output.
Incendiary's DoT is an exception to that rule though: It stacks, has a fixed damage per stack, and the application scales with RoF and #pellets ... and not DPS.

Now, the Reegar is a weapon with insanely high RoF and multiple pellets, so it pretty much double-dips, and at an extreme rate.

Is this broken? Hell, yes.
But it's not the Reegar that's broken, it's the Reegar's interaction with Incendiary Ammo.
Ask Bioware to fix that, and you get my support.
Keep screaming for a Reegar nerf though, and I'll tell you why you're wrong.
And you are wrong.

[Feneckus]

BSN's stupidity never ceases to amaze me.

Great job guys.

[StarCynic]

Feneckus wrote...

BSN's stupidity never ceases to amaze me.

Great job guys.

... says the BSN celebrity.
Can we log that as self-owned?

That aside, what have you brought to this discussion that even remotely resembled an argument?
Let me check ... insult, opionated insult, insult, fallacy, insult .... ummmm ... am I missing something here?
Maybe if you took a step down from your lofty throne and explained the issue in a way us low-born peasants can understand, we'd see your point?
That is, if you have any at all, and not just an inflated ego and lots of arrogance.

No, just "because you say it" is not an argument.
It's ... spam. At best. Trolling, more likely.

Fortunately I'm jaded enough that something like that doens't really amaze me anymore :happy:

Modifié par StarCynic, 05 février 2013 - 09:56 .

[Feneckus]

I did give some arguments, but I keep seeing the same nonsense over and over again.

"It has poor range"
"It's heavy"
"Getting close is risky"
"You're wasting too much time getting in range"

All of those make no sense at all. It really shows most people spend more time arguing about the game than actually playing it.

Talking to a wall is more productive.

There could be a freaking Cain missile launcher in this game and some people would argue it's not OP.

"But it's so heavy ... And I need to go an ammo box after each shot ... Perfectly balanced" 

[Zorinho20_CRO]

Yes,it is overpowered,but so what.
Can we move on?

[Titus Thongger]

Im just going to use my claymore and call it a day

[ValorOfArms777]

Cyonan wrote...

The balance of the Reegar is strange.

The downside to the Reegar is that you need to be at very close ranges for it to hit things with accuracy doing nothing for it. For the average player this brings a greatly increased risk since they are not all that great at utilizing soft cover and the right hand advantage.

Of course as captain obvious will no doubt point out in this thread, good players can completely negate this because they can actually use soft cover and the right hand advantage properly to negate almost all of the increased risk of a CQC weapon(see also Geth Infiltrator). At this point the gun's weakness falls to the armour modifier which can again be negated by ammo powers that completely ignore it.

So is it overpowered?

In the hands of the average player I would say no.

In the hands of the skilled player I would say yes.

Oh, and Warp + Incendiary Rounds + Reegar is just hilariously overpowered, but that is a bug and not entirely the fault of the Reegar Carbine.

plus you need an ammo box or else it suffers Harrier syndrome of running out of ammo like a snap

[HolyAvenger]

zorinho20 wrote...

Yes,it is overpowered,but so what.
Can we move on?

QFT. People need to move on.

[ValorOfArms777]

Feneckus wrote...

I did give some arguments, but I keep seeing the same nonsense over and over again.

"It has poor range"
"It's heavy"
"Getting close is risky"
"You're wasting too much time getting in range"

All of those make no sense at all. It really shows most people spend more time arguing about the game than actually playing it.

Talking to a wall is more productive.

There could be a freaking Cain missile launcher in this game and some people would argue it's not OP.

"But it's so heavy ... And I need to go an ammo box after each shot ... Perfectly balanced" 

it is what it is it's not OP and it's fine...it's a anti shield blaster/eletric sprayer tada..it does what it does it needs nothing to be touched..so STOP whinign about it or esle EA will make you say "I miss it when it was good" remmber that gun called a krysae... neither does it...

[ASmoothCriminalx]

Paired with incendiary ammo it is overpowered, but.. that is a bug (possibly) that should be addressed before you judge the weapon as a whole.

[ASmoothCriminalx]

ValorOfArms777 wrote...

it is what it is it's not OP and it's fine...it's a anti-material blaster/eletric sprayer tada..it does what it does it needs nothing to be touched..so STOP whinign about it or esle EA will make you say "I miss it when it was good" remmber that gun called a krysae... neither does it...

[Feneckus]

ASmoothCriminalx wrote...

Paired with incendiary ammo it is overpowered, but.. that is a bug (possibly) that should be addressed before you judge the weapon as a whole.

I don't see how reegar + incendiary ammo is OP but Reegar + AP/Warp Rounds are not ...

[greghorvath]

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...

There's only one thing I really dislike about the Reegar from an objective standpoint.

It's no carbine damnit! Why is it called a carbine???

Everything else is irrelevant, people want to use it in whatever way they like, go ahead, you're killing stuff, you're welcome in my lobbies.

this. so much this.

[greghorvath]

Feneckus wrote...

BSN's stupidity never ceases to amaze me.

Great job guys.

You are so right. Some people whine all the time about the geth, even.

[Fortack]

Cyonan wrote...

The average pug is also the average player. This relates back to when I said BioWare has to ask "Around what skill level do we want to balance our game around?". You might say "Easy, the best" but that's only 1% of the community.

Some would make the argument that it's best to balance around the majority rather than the minority in a game like Mass Effect 3.

Someone who constantly dies on gold+ has no business playing on that difficulty. They should go back to silver or bronze where they belong. There have been scores of players who failed miserably with the pre-nerf Infiltrator & Krysae, heck I've seen YT videos of missile glitchers who died every 10 seconds. It's silly to suggest missile glitching should be allowed b/c there are a couple of fools who fail anyway.

The Wraith can reliably 1 shot trash mobs and get all 8 pellets on larger targets at a very considerable distance if you're hip firing it, which makes it more accurate. It's no Javelin but certainly can 1 shot trash mobs well beyond Reegar range if you're using a Smart Choke and hip firing.

Though this thread seems to have a very strange idea of accuracy of pellet based weapons. Apparently my Talon, Wraith, and AT-12 all have roughly the same spread.

Sure, the Wraith can one-shot Husks or Troopers outside lolreegar-range (still requires a headshot though). Go ahead and start a gold game versus Cerb. Play with something that has Stasis, slap it on say a Centurion and try to kill the guy outside reegar-range. A perfect headshot might kill him but it's not something you can do consistently.
You need to be well within lolreegar-range to oneshot a Stasis'ed Phantom with the Claymore AND you need to hit her in the head. You need at least 2 point blank Claymore bodyshots to kill her otherwise. The lolreegar doesn't require you to aim at all, just point somewhere near the target and it dies in a fraction of a second. How the heck can you call that balanced?

This thread indeed has a weird idea of accuracy with people claiming that shotguns can kill stuff with a single shot at almost any range. That is nonsense. To do well with the Wraith (which is arguably the most accurate pellet shotgun in the game, and UR) you have to be in lolreegar-range most of the time. If you don't, it will be a rather poor and ineffective weapon regardless how good your aim is.

To argue that other shotguns are not totally useless outside lolreegar range and say that is enough to balance the no-need-to-aim-and-everything-melts-within-a-second is a poor argument at best.

[Rapidfire Widow]

I use the reegar on my geth trooper class, but I use it to strip banshees so my flamer specced for armour damage can kill her. I would support a reegar nerf, even if the shield multiplier is taken away, because it really won't affect how I use it.

[K_O_513]

Feneckus wrote...

I thought that was what Bronze and Silver were for 

I fail to see how having a weapon that trivializes gold+ and several weapons is good for the game.

Maybe the game was based around Bronze and the casual player?

[MajorStupidity]

Feneckus wrote...

I did give some arguments, but I keep seeing the same nonsense over and over again.

"It has poor range"
"It's heavy"
"Getting close is risky"
"You're wasting too much time getting in range"

All of those make no sense at all. It really shows most people spend more time arguing about the game than actually playing it.

Talking to a wall is more productive.

There could be a freaking Cain missile launcher in this game and some people would argue it's not OP.

"But it's so heavy ... And I need to go an ammo box after each shot ... Perfectly balanced" 

To be fair this is how many arguments on BSN turn out. I personally do not believe the reegar is nearly as OP as you make it out to be; however, I do see how you can see it this way and I respect your views.

I would be fine with fixing the incendiary/warp bug, changing the reegar so ammo did not ignore the armor penalty, and removing headshots.

In the end with how Bioware treats balancing I do not see them nerfing the reegar so anyone still debating is doing it for the sake of argument alone.

*edit I will say, however, that I think you are focusing too much on the top percentile of players. This game is balanced around the average players, and I am not arguing that this is correct it simply is how BW has choosen to balance the game. I very rarely see any PUGs using the reegar and usually if I actually see it they are not very good. It relies too much on understanding all of the hidden mechanics in the game. I see people with BotB banner who have over 300 hours logged and they do not have any idea about how armor DR works let alone incendiary ammo stacking or the incendiary ammo/warp combo bug...

Modifié par MajorStupidity, 05 février 2013 - 04:46 .

[MisterEFQ]

When I promote a character, I always do a bronze match to get it to level 4/5 before I go up to silver. I brought my reeger II with me. I was surprised I could take down an Atlas with 2 clips.

It was pretty awesome.

Is it OP? I don't know.

[ISHYGDDT]

Eh, I sort of buy the close distance argument on non-vanguards, the rest is crap.  Weight isn't really an issue: I can run a Claymore on a Human Novaguard for instance, so I certainly can run the Reegar. With AP ammo or Biotic Proc+Warp ammo, I can still take out the entire shields/barriers of all bosses + ~1/4 of their armor down on gold in 1.1 seconds. Incendiary is not actually necessary.

Modifié par ISHYGDDT, 05 février 2013 - 04:58 .

[Cyonan]

Fortack wrote...

Someone who constantly dies on gold+ has no business playing on that difficulty. They should go back to silver or bronze where they belong. There have been scores of players who failed miserably with the pre-nerf Infiltrator & Krysae, heck I've seen YT videos of missile glitchers who died every 10 seconds. It's silly to suggest missile glitching should be allowed b/c there are a couple of fools who fail anyway.

and if the majority of people are going to get killed trying to use it over a weapon that can kill from a distance that gets them killed less often, then that is a part of the balance. As I have been saying I do not believe the game should be balanced around players as good as Feneckus.

Attempting to compare a powerful weapon to the missile glitch is a silly argument and we both know it.

Fortack wrote...
Sure, the Wraith can one-shot Husks or Troopers outside lolreegar-range (still requires a headshot though). Go ahead and start a gold game versus Cerb. Play with something that has Stasis, slap it on say a Centurion and try to kill the guy outside reegar-range. A perfect headshot might kill him but it's not something you can do consistently.
You need to be well within lolreegar-range to oneshot a Stasis'ed Phantom with the Claymore AND you need to hit her in the head. You need at least 2 point blank Claymore bodyshots to kill her otherwise. The lolreegar doesn't require you to aim at all, just point somewhere near the target and it dies in a fraction of a second. How the heck can you call that balanced?

This thread indeed has a weird idea of accuracy with people claiming that shotguns can kill stuff with a single shot at almost any range. That is nonsense. To do well with the Wraith (which is arguably the most accurate pellet shotgun in the game, and UR) you have to be in lolreegar-range most of the time. If you don't, it will be a rather poor and ineffective weapon regardless how good your aim is.

To argue that other shotguns are not totally useless outside lolreegar range and say that is enough to balance the no-need-to-aim-and-everything-melts-within-a-second is a poor argument at best.

The Wraith is my favourite shotgun by far. I have used it a lot on Gold against all the factions and on pretty much every character. It seems your Wraith is broken because I can 1 shot the shielded trash mobs at beyond Reegar range.

Please, point out where I said the Wraith can kill at almost any range. I specifically stated that it is not anywhere close to sniper rifle range, but that it is well beyond Reegar range.

To argue that the Wraith has an effective range roughly equal to the AT-12/Reegar is a poor argument, imo =P