311 réponses à ce sujet

[Dr. Tim Whatley]

stysiaq wrote...

morina kur pls

Took me a second to get it but I loled when I did.

[Feneckus]

The Reegar is not overpowered () because it's not great on a ... GI ? 

Flawless logic.

[Tybo]

Speedruns are a poor argument against the Reegar's effectiveness. 32 rockets and coordinated spawn control eliminate the need for boss killing, the Reegar's strength.

[Cyonan]

Feneckus wrote...

The Reegar is not overpowered () because it's not great on a ... GI ? 

Flawless logic.

People keep talking about how it's so much more efficient than anything else.

Apparently the most efficient thing in the game is 3 Talons + 1 AT-12 on a Geth Infiltrator.

Maybe we should nerf the Talon and the GI =P

[Cyonan]

tyhw wrote...

Speedruns are a poor argument against the Reegar's effectiveness. 32 rockets and coordinated spawn control eliminate the need for boss killing, the Reegar's strength.

and what metric is a good argument?

How fast a team of people like Feneckus can clear a game without using rockets?

How fast a team of your average pug users can do it?

[Hausner85]

Cyonan wrote...

Hausner85 wrote...

Cyonan wrote...

and yet for all its' theoretical DPS the current world record speed run features 3 Talons and no Reegar Carbines =P

And the fastest platinum solo  features N7 Fury and not GI.... Skill mater more then guns and kits. Also Armored compartments come in handy for speed runs. 

Skill has nothing to do with what loadouts those players chose for that speed run.

Didn't watch the video. But doesn't speed runs in general require a different approach than normal. For example Reegar short range can be dealt easily if you have full freedom of movement. Bud do you have it in speed run? I don't want to argue with you as you have far better knowledge of game mechanics then I do. But i don't think that guns/kits should be judge based on speedruns/solos. For me gun/kit is overpowered when anyone can trivialize game with it. And i think that reegar combined with some kits (krogard, infiltrators etc.) can do that.

Modifié par Hausner85, 04 février 2013 - 10:24 .

[Tybo]

Cyonan wrote...

tyhw wrote...

Speedruns are a poor argument against the Reegar's effectiveness. 32 rockets and coordinated spawn control eliminate the need for boss killing, the Reegar's strength.

and what metric is a good argument?

How fast a team of people like Feneckus can clear a game without using rockets?

How fast a team of your average pug users can do it?

Well, that depends on you own personal definition of OP.  I'd be fine with using the elite crew, no rockets.  My only issue with this is that in a speedrun, your ability to spawn control is paramount.  The Reegar forces you to move more and makes spawn control a bit more difficult.  If you want to call that a drawback, go ahead.  In my book, it doesn't count because it is a very specialized circumstance.  But I'm willing to listen to arguments.

My main point was that when you have 32 rockets to wipe spawns with, the priorities for what your weapon does shifts significantly.  I mean, none of them even got 25 weapon kills, so claiming that the time is on the weapons used is a bit facetious.

[ABjerre]

Cyonan wrote...

lightswitch wrote...

Cyonan wrote...

So is it overpowered?

In the hands of the average player I would say no.

In the hands of the skilled player I would say yes.

I don't think there's anything in the game that is overpowered in the hands of an average player.

As for whether the Reegar is overpowered or not...my heart screams yes. That's all I have to say on the matter.

Which means BioWare must ask themselves the question "Around what skill level do I want to balance my game?"

The answer is not always neccessarily the most skilled players.

Edit: Quoted the wrong post...

The quoted section above is a very important point, and it needs far more attention than it has gotten.

First off, look up "nominal distribution" if you are not familiar with it. A quick google search under images should do the trick.

edit: I found a suitable picture for your reading pleasure:


Put players on the Y-axis and "skills utilized" on the X-axis. I'll be bold and make 2 assumptions here:

1: The overall skill of the player base is nominally distributed, or at least close to being it.
2: Things that you cant read from the game itself, and actually requires some research online, such as reload canceling, utilizing soft cover, right hand advantage and "pizza running" are placed on the far right side of the X-axis - this being > mean+std deviation (the red and yellow on the right side).

If 1 and 2 are true, and without having anyhitng to show for it, my past experiences with MP seems to support that, we're talking about ~15.75% of the player base being able to (in some degree) utilize "clever use of game design to their advantage", and most likely around 2.15% mastering all of them.

As such, this vast minority can safely be disregarded when ajusting game balance meaning that even in the case of something being grosely overpowered under sertain circumstances (like a GI using the Reegar w. Incendiary ammo from soft cover, exploiting right hand advantage to mow down an entire spawn on Platinum), it should not be ajusted to compensate.

This is simply because in excess of ~85% of the population will "pay for the crimes of the fewer than ~15%" while never understanding why the ajustment was justifyable in the first place. They (the majority) will simply be left with the feeling that their toy was taken away from them. That in turn leads to disgruntled customers, and that, ladies and gentlemen, is bad for business.

And while we're at it, i recognize that the Reegar is a very powerfull weapon, but it comes at a steep price of being extremely rigid in its application. As a consequence, i personally do not enjoy playing with it.

Modifié par ABjerre, 04 février 2013 - 10:45 .

[Feneckus]

Cyonan wrote...

People keep talking about how it's so much more efficient than anything else.

It is. But since when do we judge weapons by how they perform on a GI ?

The best weapon for him, arguably, is the Talon, and like you said, nobody's calling for a Talon nerf because on other classes the damage isn't that great while the GI can one clip an Atlas with it, and its range is kind of lackluster while the GI can snipe with it. On a standard class it's a good, light weapon that's relatively good at stripping shields/barriers. On a GI, it's 4/7 shot Claymore 

Also, the range argument is irrelevant.

Not a big deal at all on Glacier/Goddess/White. Maybe Jade as well.

Praetorians are no threat because you're doing so much damage you can "stunlock" them.

Phantoms and Dragoons rush you and you end up fighting them in CQC 90% of the time anyway. Phantoms are also far less dangerous in CQC so it's actually a lot safer to deal with them with a Reegar.

You'll always win a 1vs1 vs Pyros/Hunters/Bombers. Hell, even 1vs3.

So the only thing that makes the weapon "balanced" is irrelevant. And of course I'm not even talking about infiltrators/vanguards/havocs who can get close at will.

Modifié par Feneckus, 04 février 2013 - 10:31 .

[Cyonan]

Hausner85 wrote...

Didn't watch the video. But doesn't speed runs in general require a different approach than normal. For example Reegar short range can be dealt easily if you have full freedom of movement. Bud do you have it in speed run? I don't want to argue with you as you have far better knowledge of game mechanics then my but i don't think that guns/kits should be judge based on speedruns/solos. For me gun/kit is overpowered when anyone can trivialize game with it. And i think that reegar combined with some kits (krogard, infiltrators etc.) can do that.

You move around a lot in speed runs from spawn to spawn. Part of it is what was mentioned(You're using missiles on pretty much every boss) and part of it is that the Reegar is not actually the optimal choice for a lot of Infiltrators, and certainly not the Geth(who has the highest damage output in the game which is why he is almost always used in speed runs).

As I mentioned back on page 1 though, your average pug can't trivialize the game with it because they can't properly utilize soft cover and right hand advantage to negate the increased risk of playing.

Even if using it on an Infiltrator, they just end up dying a lot since they also don't know how to properly utilize Tactical Cloak to become invisible(even some good BSN players don't know how to do this =P)

The only exception is really the Krogan and Batarian Vanguards. It's not fair to call the Reegar OP because of 2 kits, however.

[ABjerre]

Cyonan wrote...

tyhw wrote...

Speedruns are a poor argument against the Reegar's effectiveness. 32 rockets and coordinated spawn control eliminate the need for boss killing, the Reegar's strength.

and what metric is a good argument?

How fast a team of people like Feneckus can clear a game without using rockets?

How fast a team of your average pug users can do it?

See my post above: social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/343/index/15787302/7#15789353 for the answer to what is a good measure of when something is overpowered or not.

I think its safe to say that players like the one you mentioned et al are among the top 2.15% and their achivements can safely be ignored when making balance changes simply because ~85% of the active player base will never come close to reproducing their results.

Modifié par ABjerre, 04 février 2013 - 10:47 .

[Cyonan]

tyhw wrote...

Well, that depends on you own personal definition of OP.  I'd be fine with using the elite crew, no rockets.  My only issue with this is that in a speedrun, your ability to spawn control is paramount.  The Reegar forces you to move more and makes spawn control a bit more difficult.  If you want to call that a drawback, go ahead.  In my book, it doesn't count because it is a very specialized circumstance.  But I'm willing to listen to arguments.

My main point was that when you have 32 rockets to wipe spawns with, the priorities for what your weapon does shifts significantly.  I mean, none of them even got 25 weapon kills, so claiming that the time is on the weapons used is a bit facetious.

A fair point, and I do admit that a speed run is not neccessarily the best measure of efficiency(plus the gun is not actually all that optimal on a lot of Infiltrators, imo).

My argument however, will always be that I don't believe the game should be balanced around the elite 1%, as they will make everything seem OP. The only time I think one should strive for that is in a highly competitive e-sports game, which Mass Effect is obviously not.

Feneckus wrote...

It is. But since when do we judge weapons by how they perform on a GI ?

The best weapon for him, arguably, is the Talon, and like you said, nobody's calling for a Talon nerf because on other classes the damage isn't that great while the GI can one clip an Atlas with it, and its range is kind of lackluster while the GI can snipe with it. On a standard class it's a good, light weapon that's relatively good at stripping shields/barriers. On a GI, it's 4/7 shot Claymore 

Also, the range argument is irrelevant.

Not a big deal at all on Glacier/Goddess/White. Maybe Jade as well.

Praetorians are no threat because you're doing so much damage you can "stunlock" them.

Phantoms and Dragoons rush you and you end up fighting them in CQC 90% of the time anyway. Phantoms are also far less dangerous in CQC so it's actually a lot safer to deal with them with a Reegar.

You'll always win a 1vs1 vs Pyros/Hunters/Bombers. Hell, even 1vs3.

So the only thing that makes the weapon "balanced" is irrelevant. And of course I'm not even talking about infiltrators/vanguards/havocs who can get close at will.

and how often will the average player survive 3 Pyros by themselves with just a Reegar?

As I said above, I don't think a game like Mass Effect should be balanced around people like you who are the most skilled players around.

You're always going to make things look OP, as evidenced by the fact that you seem to think a very considerable % of things in this game are in need of nerfing =P

[Hausner85]

ABjerre wrote...

Cyonan wrote...

lightswitch wrote...

Cyonan wrote...

So is it overpowered?

In the hands of the average player I would say no.

In the hands of the skilled player I would say yes.

I don't think there's anything in the game that is overpowered in the hands of an average player.

As for whether the Reegar is overpowered or not...my heart screams yes. That's all I have to say on the matter.

Which means BioWare must ask themselves the question "Around what skill level do I want to balance my game?"

The answer is not always neccessarily the most skilled players.

Edit: Quoted the wrong post...

The quoted section above is a very important point, and it needs far more attention than it has gotten.

First off, look up "nominal distribution" if you are not familiar with it. A quick google search under images should do the trick. Put players on the Y-axis and "skills utilized" on the X-axis. I'll be bold and make 2 assumptions here:

1: The overall skill of the player base is nominally distributed, or at least close to being it.
2: Things that you cant read from the game itself, and actually requires some research online, such as reload canceling, utilizing soft cover, right hand advantage and "pizza running" are placed on the far right side of the X-axis.

If 1 and 2 are true, and without having anyhitng to show for it, my past experiences with MP seems to support that, we're talking about ~20% of the player base being able to (in some degree) utilize "clever use of game design to their advantage", and most likely around 2.5% mastering all of them.

As such, this vast minority can safely be disregarded when ajusting game balance meaning that even in the case of something being grosely overpowered under sertain circumstances (like a GI using the Reegar w. Incendiary ammo from soft cover, exploiting right hand advantage to mow down an entire spawn on Platinum), it should not be ajusted to compensate.

This is simply because in excess of 80% of the population will "pay for the crimes of the fewer than 20%" while never understanding why the ajustment was justifyable in the first place. They (the majority) will simply be left with the feeling that their toy was taken away from them. That in turn leads to disgruntled customers, and that, ladies and gentlemen, is bad for business.

And while we're at it, i recognize that the Reegar is a very powerfull weapon, but it comes at a steep price of being extremely rigid in its application. As a consequence, i personally do not enjoy playing with it.

Great post:) And an important question to answer. Bioware up to date use definition if we can trivialize game with some set up/combo it should be nerfed. Bioware devs are in that 20% group. The question is how fast i will take the most of people in remaining 80% to use the same tricks? For reegar it takes 10s: you just need to say the to slap in on krogard.. I know that for a fact. I have a friend that can't play gold at all, but a soon as he takes his krogard with reegar he very often comes second in gold maches...

Modifié par Hausner85, 04 février 2013 - 10:44 .

[Miclotov]

Cyonan wrote...

In the hands of the average player I would say no.

In the hands of the skilled player I would say yes.

That's something you can easily say about every better weapon. In general I say it is not overpowered.

[Vlark]

No its not. It is borderline OP in Close Combat but its limited by his range. And thats fine.

[Cyonan]

Hausner85 wrote...
For reegar it takes 10s you just need to say the to slap in on krogard.. I know that for a fact. I have a friend that can't play gold at all, but a soon as he takes his krogard with reegar he very often comes second in gold maches... 

As I said though, it's not really fair to call a gun overpowered because of the Kroguard =P

Miclotov wrote...

Cyonan wrote...

In the hands of the average player I would say no.

In the hands of the skilled player I would say yes.

That's something you can easily say about every better weapon. In general I say it is not overpowered.

Some guns definately have a lower skill floor though, such as the Harrier.

What made the Krysae so incredibly overpowered was that its' skill floor was so low that it was buried 10 feet under the ground =P

[Hausner85]

Cyonan wrote...

Hausner85 wrote...
For reegar it takes 10s you just need to say the to slap in on krogard.. I know that for a fact. I have a friend that can't play gold at all, but a soon as he takes his krogard with reegar he very often comes second in gold maches... 

As I said though, it's not really fair to call a gun overpowered because of the Kroguard =P

Some guns definately have a lower skill floor though, such as the Harrier.

What made the Krysae so incredibly overpowered was that its' skill floor was so low that it was buried 10 feet under the ground =P

Human Infitrator also is great with it, so is most of vanguards . Still you may be right. Maybe just maybe this game is becoming little too easy for me (and that clouds my judgement) ... For some time I restrain from using kits/weapons i find too good. Reegar is just one victim (I use only on vorcha. Shooting Ligtnig AND fire is so cool) Ghost, Kroguard or GI. Also been thinking of abandoning Hsol+harrier and Black Widow...

Still i don't think Harrier has a lower learning floor then Reegar. If you can't headshoot Harrier is not that good.

Modifié par Hausner85, 04 février 2013 - 11:05 .

[ThelLastTruePatriot]

nanotm wrote...

TheKillerAngel wrote...

My points, which seem to have been lost in all of this, are that:

1. People bandy around with the term "overpowered" far too glibly. To me, something is overpowered if it demonstrably dominates and upsets/breaks the metagame. The pre-nerf Krysae did this.

2. The Reegar is a very powerful weapon but there are better weapon choices for classes that are not capable of sustained close quarters combat. The Reegar occupies a niche role, it is SUPERB at what it does, but its a weapon that lacks versatility.

the disciple is a better gun that the regar for any power user because you can still achieve a 200% cooldown reduction

regard gives a max of 150 and for that it needs to be the sole weapon (oh and thats only on a soldier ) but more commonly it will be around 100>130 thats an extra second on cooldowns for powers


personally i'd rather take things like the regar on a kit that has no powers (unless its a vsol) since the reuse timers would be too much especially when equipped with hvb to negate that inate useleness agaisnt armour problem, especially since the shredder mod seems to be basically useless in terms of fixing hte problem

 If you are primarily a caster, you would do better with the acolyte, strips shields like a mofo and has respectable damage, also it is the bane of phantoms.

 

[Cyonan]

Hausner85 wrote...
Human Infitrator also is great with it, so is most of vanguards . Still you may be right. Maybe just maybe this game is becoming little too easy for me (and that clouds my judgement) ... For some time I restrain from using kits/weapons i find too good. Reegar is just one victim (I use only on vorcha. Shooting Ligtnig AND fire is so cool) Ghost, Kroguard or GI. Also been thinking of abandoning Hsol+harrier and Black Widow...

Still i don't think Harrier has a lower learning floor then Reegar. If you can't headshoot Harrier is not that good.

I'd say the Harrier is easier for the simple fact of effective range. Yeah the Vanguards have an amazing gap closer, though sync kills still pose a very real risk to the average pug(and god help them if you end up against Collectors), as does the time during Biotic Charge's cooldown unless you're playing a Kroguard or Batguard.

I'd not call myself the greatest ME3 player though I like to think of myself as being quite good, and I find most setups are very effective for me on Gold. That I always bring consumables certainly helps a lot, too.

[GallowsPole]

Squeezing a trigger vs. reloading and re-aiming

[Hausner85]

Cyonan wrote...

Hausner85 wrote...
Human Infitrator also is great with it, so is most of vanguards . Still you may be right. Maybe just maybe this game is becoming little too easy for me (and that clouds my judgement) ... For some time I restrain from using kits/weapons i find too good. Reegar is just one victim (I use only on vorcha. Shooting Ligtnig AND fire is so cool) Ghost, Kroguard or GI. Also been thinking of abandoning Hsol+harrier and Black Widow...

Still i don't think Harrier has a lower learning floor then Reegar. If you can't headshoot Harrier is not that good.

I'd say the Harrier is easier for the simple fact of effective range. Yeah the Vanguards have an amazing gap closer, though sync kills still pose a very real risk to the average pug(and god help them if you end up against Collectors), as does the time during Biotic Charge's cooldown unless you're playing a Kroguard or Batguard.

I'd not call myself the greatest ME3 player though I like to think of myself as being quite good, and I find most setups are very effective for me on Gold. That I always bring consumables certainly helps a lot, too.

Harrier greatest strength is it versatility. Good for long and short range, weapons and caster classes, bosses and mooks. The only other weapons like this that comes to my mind is Wraith. Still it's a rare sight to see someone take full advantage of it...

[KyreneZA]

What is this OP? The Reegar is not OP, it just is. In the hands of some a toothpick is OP; in the hands of some the Missile Launcher needs a buff. These endless, pointless arguments about weapons sure are OP. Nerf these arguments!

Oh and nerf the Harri... nevermind it ran out of ammo anyway.

[dream3873]

No its not. Its a very situational weapon.

[Lisl]

IMO its not overpowered, but very easy to use and does good damage even on lvl 1.