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Is the Reegar overpowered?


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#201
TheKillerAngel

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Annomander wrote...

Cyonan wrote...

Annomander wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

I only have one question....

WHERE IS ANNOMANDER?


My answer:


Deerber wrote...

Lolreegar



Is there anything you don't find overpowered in this game? =P


Here's a comprehensive list of things that I think are overpowered:

1. Shadow strike
2. Kroguard
3. tactical cloak (though not due its damage boost)
4. iWin packs on an infiltrator
5. lolreegar
6. screenshake
7. grenades
8. snap freeze (admittedly, it is bugged)
9. Volus (but only if you know how to play them, arguably the best tanks (on host) in the entire game and the engineer is just as good a spawn nuker as the QME if you know how to use him)

That leaves a lot of stuff that I think is balanced or underpowered.

:wizard:




You see Annomander, I think your list of things is probably better described as things that are really strong. Coming from a lot of MMOs and RTS games, my standard of "overpowered" is pretty strict in meaning that it has to be metagame breaking/stifling.

#202
ShinTheZero

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Deerber wrote...

ShinTheZero wrote...

Fortack wrote...

FataliTensei wrote...

On paper i might look so but in practice you have to be fairly skilled to use it effectively (not die).


Are there other short range weapons that don't require the same level of skill?

TheKillerAngel wrote...

That is exactly why I don't consider it overpowered. It has limited applications and because it's only optimal on some classes, it doesn't "break" the shotgun metagame. It's powerful and easy to use but these factors in themselves don't make a weapon overpowered. You have to measure something's "OP'ness" by its destabilizing effect on the metagame.


What applications are you referring to? You can't be serious saying that to use the Talon, Claymore, Wraith, Raider, Piranha effectively you don't have to get within lolreegar-range. If you try to snipe with any of those weapons you're probably better off using the Avenger or something.


Talon, Claymore and Wraith are looking at you very strangely. Also, a Krogan defying the Claymore? Shame on you.

Also, you know that the N7 Piranha outdamages the Reegar in CQC and Close range?


I can assure you... Fortack does not defy the Claymore. He is simply honest about its limits, which most people around here seem not to be.

Also, the Piranha only outdamages the Reegar in 2 situations:

- outside of the Reegar maximum range, or

- in your dreams :P


Ever took something with RoF on the Piranha. I assure you, with a HvB and Shredder Mod you might Change your mind a lot..

also, seems like to provoke somebody, aren't you? Shows, how stupid you are. Image IPB

#203
Deerber

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Cyonan wrote...

Deerber wrote...

I can assure you... Fortack does not defy the Claymore. He is simply honest about its limits, which most people around here seem not to be.

Also, the Piranha only outdamages the Reegar in 2 situations:

- outside of the Reegar maximum range, or

- in your dreams :P


I'm not sure if I would say that saying the Claymore has an effective range roughly equal to the Reegar is being honest about its' limits =P

And certainly not about the Wraith's limits, which is the second most accurate hitscan shotgun, even if you include the Talon(Crusader is first. Kind of).


Yeah, he is probably exagerating. But so are all those who claim you can "snipe" with a claymore, since you definitely cannot.

#204
BridgeBurner

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Cyonan wrote...

Deerber wrote...

I can assure you... Fortack does not defy the Claymore. He is simply honest about its limits, which most people around here seem not to be.

Also, the Piranha only outdamages the Reegar in 2 situations:

- outside of the Reegar maximum range, or

- in your dreams :P


I'm not sure if I would say that saying the Claymore has an effective range roughly equal to the Reegar is being honest about its' limits =P

And certainly not about the Wraith's limits, which is the second most accurate hitscan shotgun, even if you include the Talon(Crusader is first. Kind of).


Strap a claymore on a batarian sentinel. You're allowed to take ammo power, and passive weapon damage. SC + HVB

Come back and tell me how many OSKs you got on shielded enemes outside of effective reegar range.

:P

#205
Deerber

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ShinTheZero wrote...

Deerber wrote...

ShinTheZero wrote...

Fortack wrote...

FataliTensei wrote...

On paper i might look so but in practice you have to be fairly skilled to use it effectively (not die).


Are there other short range weapons that don't require the same level of skill?

TheKillerAngel wrote...

That is exactly why I don't consider it overpowered. It has limited applications and because it's only optimal on some classes, it doesn't "break" the shotgun metagame. It's powerful and easy to use but these factors in themselves don't make a weapon overpowered. You have to measure something's "OP'ness" by its destabilizing effect on the metagame.


What applications are you referring to? You can't be serious saying that to use the Talon, Claymore, Wraith, Raider, Piranha effectively you don't have to get within lolreegar-range. If you try to snipe with any of those weapons you're probably better off using the Avenger or something.


Talon, Claymore and Wraith are looking at you very strangely. Also, a Krogan defying the Claymore? Shame on you.

Also, you know that the N7 Piranha outdamages the Reegar in CQC and Close range?


I can assure you... Fortack does not defy the Claymore. He is simply honest about its limits, which most people around here seem not to be.

Also, the Piranha only outdamages the Reegar in 2 situations:

- outside of the Reegar maximum range, or

- in your dreams :P


Ever took something with RoF on the Piranha. I assure you, with a HvB and Shredder Mod you might Change your mind a lot..

also, seems like to provoke somebody, aren't you? Shows, how stupid you are. Image IPB


Now, english is not my first language, but I'm fairly sure that your last sentence doesn't make any sense.

I am smart enough to get its meaning, though. What can I say more than I won't engage in a conversation with someone stating that I am stupid merely because I pointed out a fact?

Well, I wouldn't have stayed arguing here anyway, so I'd better be gone I guess.

#206
TheKillerAngel

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Annomander wrote...

Cyonan wrote...

Deerber wrote...

I can assure you... Fortack does not defy the Claymore. He is simply honest about its limits, which most people around here seem not to be.

Also, the Piranha only outdamages the Reegar in 2 situations:

- outside of the Reegar maximum range, or

- in your dreams :P


I'm not sure if I would say that saying the Claymore has an effective range roughly equal to the Reegar is being honest about its' limits =P

And certainly not about the Wraith's limits, which is the second most accurate hitscan shotgun, even if you include the Talon(Crusader is first. Kind of).


Strap a claymore on a batarian sentinel. You're allowed to take ammo power, and passive weapon damage. SC + HVB

Come back and tell me how many OSKs you got on shielded enemes outside of effective reegar range.

:P


You don't need to 1HK them. Equip disruptor ammo, shoot, then shockwave. The residual tech burst + shockwave damage/force will probably kill the mook.

#207
Cyonan

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Annomander wrote...
Here's a comprehensive list of things that I think are overpowered:

1. Shadow strike
2. Kroguard
3. tactical cloak (though not due its damage boost)
4. iWin packs on an infiltrator
5. lolreegar
6. screenshake
7. grenades
8. snap freeze (admittedly, it is bugged)
9. Volus (but only if you know how to play them, arguably the best tanks (on host) in the entire game and the engineer is just as good a spawn nuker as the QME if you know how to use him)

That leaves a lot of stuff that I think is balanced or underpowered.

:wizard:


According to you 26 characters in the game have something that need nerfing(28 if you include Frag Grenade as part of Grenades), not counting duplicates for the original humans or characters with screenshake.

That's about half the kits in the game.

Also, Shadow Strike?

#208
Yosuke

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Yes, I was wondering about shadow strike as well. It's loleasy to use, but its dps is quite low.

#209
ShinTheZero

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1. There is no proof neither to your argumentation nor to mine. So your argument has no facts.
2. There are other means to point out a "fact" than insulting somebody with "in your dreams".
3. Your behaviour is clearly showing your arrogance.

Yes, you are a perfect example for the regular monkey in BSN.

#210
Cyonan

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Annomander wrote...

Strap a claymore on a batarian sentinel. You're allowed to take ammo power, and passive weapon damage. SC + HVB

Come back and tell me how many OSKs you got on shielded enemes outside of effective reegar range.

:P


Quite a few on trash mobs, actually.

I do it all the time on my Human Soldier with the pre-AR shot(so no, I don't have massive damage bonuses).

It's not a Javelin, but it's most certainly able to kill things outside of Reegar range.

#211
ArcaptSSX

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I deem the Reegar in the same league as the PPR, except on the other end of the spectre (range vs no range).
Hence not overpowered, just borderline. I don't think anyone would make a fuss over it if it was a UR.

Modifié par ArcaptSSX, 04 février 2013 - 07:04 .


#212
K_O_513

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I've seen it all now. Shadow Strike overpowered?

#213
Deerber

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ShinTheZero wrote...

1. There is no proof neither to your argumentation nor to mine. So your argument has no facts.
2. There are other means to point out a "fact" than insulting somebody with "in your dreams".
3. Your behaviour is clearly showing your arrogance.

Yes, you are a perfect example for the regular monkey in BSN.


Well, it so happens that I have a bit of time to waste trying to show you where you are wrong, even though I doubt I will change anything.

1. proof.

2. saying "in your dreams", followed by an emoticon such as :P, is not an insult in my book. It's more a lighthearthed mockery, something to smile on. Saying "you are an idiot" is, instead, an insult.

3. this is, again, an insult. I will not comment on any of those two insults, I will merely leave the judgmente to other people, as it would be quite stupid for me to argue that I am not stupid or arrogant.

Finally, let me add. Before you start posting and stating things in a thread about nerfs/buffs, it would be wise to try the objects of the thread and/or of your statement by yourself. At X, since that is the level at which comparisons relevant to buffs/nerfs are made. Something you clearly cannot have done, since you don't have the reegar, nor the piranha, at X.

#214
ShinTheZero

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Rad_Rage wrote...

I've seen it all now. Shadow Strike overpowered?


Annomander is a melee-maniac. So a teleporting shadow, stealing his kills, are OP. Image IPB

#215
Fortack

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TheKillerAngel wrote...

One of the big things you're forgetting is that the above mentioned hitscan weapons do not have to connect all their pellets or even 1 hit kill something to be effective. I can shoot a target 20 meters away with my Claymore drellguard, charge it/grenade it, and detonate an explosion. If I try that with a Reegar, I have to get close before priming the target.


It's quite hard to prime something with the lolreegar without killing it. The Drellguard can Charge, say, a Scion, one-clip the thing and Charge the next unfortunate victim. In case there are a couple other enemies within fireplosion range (I assume you use Incendiary Ammo on the Claymore on the Drellguard example) you only have to move the cursor a little to the left and right and everything within the detonation radius will be death too. No need to use cluster nades - and that is saying something ;)

All of the above mentioned weapons are better choices on vanguards like the slayer, drellguard, and novaguard, as opposed to the Reegar. because 1. they have no firing delay and 2. can connect with the target at midrange or better. The Reegar, on vanguards, is optimally used on the Batarian and Krogan - no surprise - they are melee-centric vanguards. The other vanguards get more benefit from other weapons.


The Slayer and Novaguard are unique b/c they are able to spam powers 24/7 which makes all weapons that require a (short) period of fire-time less effective. Both can shoot the Wraith between casts and cancel the reload / fire delay with their powers. The lolreegar is better for everyone else though. That's the problem of this weapon. Only a handful of characters who have abilities that don't mesh well with the lolreegar are better off with something else, but that has everything to do with their powers, not with the weapons.

The Reegar's impressive damage output is notable, and if damage were the only thing that mattered in the game, it would be overpowered. However, I think a lot of people underestimate how the firing delay and limited range prevent this weapon from breaking the shotgun metagame.


Well, I disagree. It's very easy to get within range regardless who or what you're playing. And once you get in range you've won b/c the lolreegar's insane damage is going to stunlock pretty much all enemies within it range. It's so powerful that it makes using powers almost redundant b/c you're likely going to lower your damage output with casting compared to simply hold down the firebutton.

#216
Fortack

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TheKillerAngel wrote...

You don't need to 1HK them. Equip disruptor ammo, shoot, then shockwave. The residual tech burst + shockwave damage/force will probably kill the mook.


Or you Shockwave to stagger the target, get within range and melt the bastard. That "tactic" even works on an Atlas if you use the lolreegar :D

#217
BridgeBurner

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Rad_Rage wrote...

I've seen it all now. Shadow Strike overpowered?


Teleporting shadows are OP, melee abilities should require you to have the balls to run into into the spawn and take whatever damage that incurs. Being able to teleport about the place whilst invisible, one shotting stuff is not balanced in comparison to other melee specs; but that is another example of biower's infiltrator bias. We won't make anything powerful / competent at melee combat unless it's an infiltrator. Same goes for pretty much everything else. We'll release vorcha engineer's with crap powers, but we wont release infiltrators with bad powers...

The massive damage that shadowstrike does is too significant for the amount of risk involved in it. Plus, the fact that a shadow can do massive damage to armour with a sword being swung by a human, when a krogan can't is quite frankly ridiculous. When last I checked, 1 tonne of krogan charging at you would cause more damage to metal plating than a puny human with a sword.

Massive force caused by size and momentum > puny human with sword dipped in petrol. However, biower are morons when it comes to balancing melee in this game, so we have the N7 shadow (just like the GI, the huntress and the drell infiltrator... and the TGI.... and the QFI...) all being better at melee than krogan. Biower's moronic balance ideas strike again!

Why should your shadow deal more damage with an attack than MY melee specced demolisher (or my krogan), when my melee demolisher (or krogan) has a far higher inherent risk involved in their playstyle?

Modifié par Annomander, 04 février 2013 - 07:30 .


#218
Cyonan

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Annomander wrote...
Teleporting shadows are OP, melee abilities should require you to have the balls to run into into the spawn and take whatever damage that incurs. Being able to teleport about the place whilst invisible, one shotting stuff is not balanced in comparison to other melee specs; but that is another example of biower's infiltrator bias. We won't make anything powerful / competent at melee combat unless it's an infiltrator. Same goes for pretty much everything else. We'll release vorcha engineer's with crap powers, but we wont release infiltrators with bad powers...

The massive damage that shadowstrike does is too significant for the amount of risk involved in it. Plus, the fact that a shadow can do massive damage to armour with a sword being swung by a human, when a krogan can't is quite frankly ridiculous. When last I checked, 1 tonne of krogan charging at you would cause more damage to metal plating than a puny human with a sword.

Massive force caused by size and momentum > puny human with sword dipped in petrol. However, biower are morons when it comes to balancing melee in this game, so we have the N7 shadow (just like the GI, the huntress and the drell infiltrator... and the TGI.... and the QFI...) all being better at melee than krogan. Biower's moronic balance ideas strike again!

Why should your shadow deal more damage with an attack than MY melee specced demolisher, when my melee demolisher has a far higher inherent risk involved in their playstyle?


What I got from this is that since you don't think the Krogan are competant in a pure melee build, that means the N7 Shadow should be nerfed to where she is less effective than the apparently incompetant Krogan.

So I'm assuming that you think the Shadow should only be brought so people can stare at her backside, or something?

#219
K_O_513

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Annomander wrote...

Teleporting shadows are OP, melee abilities should require you to have the balls to run into into the spawn and take whatever damage that incurs.


I see where you're coming from, but that's what makes the Shadow unique. She's not a Krogan and shouldn't play like one. She's a 1 on 1 assassin rather than a brawler such as a Krogan or Batarian. That's why Shadow Strike is so powerful. You sneak up behind a guy and slice him. Her biggest strength lies in 1v1 combat. Against a group she's not as effective (unless you spam Electric Slash) unlike a Krogan who can tank unlike any other.

Being able to teleport about the place whilst invisible, one shotting stuff is not balanced in comparison to other melee specs; but that is another example of biower's infiltrator bias. We won't make anything powerful / competent at melee combat unless it's an infiltrator. Same goes for pretty much everything else. We'll release vorcha engineer's with crap powers, but we wont release infiltrators with bad powers..


Yeah you're mostly invisible but not completely hidden from the enemy. You have to be very precise about what you Shadow Strike. It isn't like Biotic Charge where she can just tank and charge to refill her shields. She's squishy as hell and the her shield restoration is very situational. You can get shot, sync killed and the like even when Shadow Striking. Enemies will sometimes melee you before you even reach them. You're totally vulnerable during Shadow Strike especially with how buggy cloak can be off host.

The massive damage that shadowstrike does is too significant for the amount of risk involved in it. Plus, the fact that a shadow can do massive damage to armour with a sword being swung by a human, when a krogan can't is quite frankly ridiculous. When last I checked, 1 tonne of krogan charging at you would cause more damage to metal plating than a puny human with a sword.


There's huge risk with playing a Shadow. As I said earlier, she's very squishy and isn't meant to be in the fray of combat like Krogans or Batarians. And I see what you're saying about the Krogan thing, but not everything in multiplayer makes sense lore wise. If everything in MP followed lore then we wouldn't have Volus on the front lines fighting, Krogans would be all but invincible and no Quarians would be alive fighting since I killed them in my campaign. It's just a consquence of bringing a MP into a single player RPG.

Massive force caused by size and momentum > puny human with sword dipped in petrol. However, biower are morons when it comes to balancing melee in this game, so we have the N7 shadow (just like the GI, the huntress and the drell infiltrator... and the TGI.... and the QFI...) all being better at melee than krogan. Biower's moronic balance ideas strike again!

Why should your shadow deal more damage with an attack than MY melee specced demolisher (or my krogan), when my melee demolisher (or krogan) has a far higher inherent risk involved in their playstyle?


Again, I'm not saying that you don't have a point. But it's just that not everything as far as the numbers that go into how a game plays out will always reflect how a game is lore/story wise.

#220
lightswitch

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ShinTheZero wrote...

Ever took something with RoF on the Piranha. I assure you, with a HvB and Shredder Mod you might Change your mind a lot..


"something with RoF"

Hmm. Oh, you mean the TSol.

Hahaha!

Also, Heavy Barrel AND Shredder Mod? Are we playing the same game?

Modifié par lightswitch, 04 février 2013 - 07:47 .


#221
Yosuke

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I think Annomander just doesn't like infiltrators, which is understandable.

#222
Feneckus

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But then, it's not Shadow Strike being OP, it's traditional melee builds being incredibly underpowered. Shadow Strike in itself is a terrible and inneficient power.

Also, the Volus Engineer is not OP at all. Biower pls, don't listen to him :whistle:

#223
K_O_513

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Right. Melee as a whole is not presented well in the game, which is somewhat understandable considering it didn't become a somewhat viable way of combat until ME3...really just ME3 multiplayer at that since Shepard doesn't really use melee.

#224
Feneckus

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Rad_Rage wrote...

Her biggest strength lies in 1v1 combat. Against a group she's not as effective (unless you spam Electric Slash) unlike a Krogan who can tank unlike any other.


If a Krogan wants to "tank", he has to sacrifice melee damage. Same thing with every other class actually. The Shadow doesn't have that problem.

#225
Cyonan

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Feneckus wrote...

If a Krogan wants to "tank", he has to sacrifice melee damage. Same thing with every other class actually. The Shadow doesn't have that problem.


If the Shadow wants to tank, the player picks another character =P

Though to go back to the Reegar(or rather balance in general) to those who think that most of the game needs nerfing I would ask this:

Why do you think balance is neccessary in a PvE game?

Please note that I am not saying I think balance is not neccessary in a PvE game.