136 réponses à ce sujet

[MagicalMaster]

PLUSH HYENA of DOOM wrote...

As Starbright and I get to know each other better and I figure out what stats work with what type of creature etc, etc, with regards her ability to blat them, the combat element should become considerably tauter. (Might also let Aurelia have a bit more freedom to use her magic). Also, if and when the "proper" versions go up on the Vault with custom music and other little surprises, it should be a far better experience.

Sounds good.   And yeah, I get why you wanted some combat given the story.

rogueknight333 wrote...

Hey, free advertising for my work on Youtube. Thanks.
 
An amusing video. Basically I set up a scenario with the potential, but no necessity, for non-linear exploration. Players who want to can focus solely on completing the main quest and ignore the peripheral stuff. Those who want to explore and do everything and find various goodies as well can do that. I suppose this module resembles an Elder Scrolls game in that respect.

Yeah, I get what you mean in general, I think I just expected the main story to require more, if that makes sense.  Like 50% main and 50% side, not 10% and 90%.  Never played Elder Scrolls so no comparison for me there.

rogueknight333 wrote...

A pure or near-pure rogue could be very tough if you have scruples about doing some arguably cheesy things like putting gobs of traps everywhere, but if you think cheese is delicious and just what your character sandwich needs, then not so much.

I generally loathe cheese like dozens of traps, AoEs stacked on each other, 1 level of monk/paladin/etc.  I'll do it if the module expects it, but I consider them (borderline) exploitative.  Might try pure rogue.

rogueknight333 wrote...

I think though that I will go with druid/shifter as the hardest type of character to play in this series (at least up to this point. Might be a better choice in later chapters when one gets into epic levels and can get the really powerful shifter forms). It will take a while to get any shifter forms that actually do that much for you, and in the meantime you will for many purposes just be an under-leveled druid. For example, being a Druid 7/Shifter 5 (again, if you find cheese tasty, you can slip a monk level in there somewhere - not sure if that would be in the spirit of what you are proposing to do) facing encounters balanced for a Level 12 character would not be that dramatically better than facing the same encounter as just a Druid 7.

I think the problem with Shifters is that they inherently tend to assume a certain magic level, if that makes sense, and scale poorly with items.  Gargoyle getting 15/+1 reduction is amazing...if your enemies have no +1 or better weapons.

I'll give it a shot, but I generally dislike Shifters for that reason - they're almost always amazing or terrible without extensive modifications.  If I feel like the character is facing pure artificial difficulty simply due to the items available (both to the player and to enemies), I'll swap to the pure rogue.

On a related note, Shifters are probably absolutely terrible in my mod for that reason - even with monk cheese.

rogueknight333 wrote...

I am assuming that you mean the hardest reasonable character build, and are not talking about deliberately gimped characters like sorcerers without enough charisma to cast better than level 1 spells, or something.

Correct.

Modifié par MagicalMaster, 06 mars 2013 - 07:44 .

[rogueknight333]

I have now played all the modules submitted in the February ABC, so I will attempt some commentary on them.

Bordering Genius. Unfortunately I found this to be too buggy in its current state to really be playable. First one starts out in the wrong area, and after debug-moding out of that one ends up talking to a creature who claims he is handing out an article of gear or clothing that he actually does not, and then will not let one progress until this non-existent item is worn. I suppose I might try to look up the resref of the needed item in the toolset and try to debug-mode that in as well, but I think I will wait for an updated version to be made available instead.

The only thing this module really did was remind me of some of the epically disastrous results of some of my own first experiments with the toolset. I think the most spectacular one came when I introduced a bug that prevented the module from even loading (it started and just froze up). This resulted from me, as a completely noob builder, not understanding that the OnEnter event for an area activates whenever anything enters the area (not just PCs as I was assuming), and that pre-placed creatures in an area are considered to "enter" it when the module loads. I had idiotically put in a script that would spawn a creature in an area whenever anything entered this area (in fact, though in intention just when PCs entered), and had some pre-placed creatures there as well. The pre-placed creatures meant that the script started running when the module started loading (they were "entering" the area at that point), which meant that the creature would spawn, which meant that a new object had entered, and thus the script would run again ad infinitum, spawning endless creatures and consuming all processing power in the process. Good times.

Legends of the Deep. Not much to say about this, as it is just a starting area with a few stores. It does have one nice feature that not all players may have noticed, namely the descriptions on some of the NPCs when they are examined. Turns out some of them have fairly interesting backstories - a nice bit of attention to detail and attempt to flesh out the world.

Hordes! This little module accomplishes its purpose of being a short amusing interlude well enough (hard to say much more about it without being spoilerish). Like other submissions it is unfinished, ending with notes for what the final cutscene is supposed to be rather than the actual cutscene. Aside from that, the only significant criticism of it I have is that the documentation included with the download does not make clear what hakpaks are required to play it (I had to check this thread to find that information).

Also, it is labeled as Episode 12, and there is mention somewhere of Episode 1 being available as one of the CCC demo modules. Do episodes 2-11 exist anywhere, or is this series being made out of order? Just curious.

Black Book. This module and the custom content it is showing off were apparently made by some sort of weird hyena creature. Hard to believe such an entity could produce something like this, but the evidence is here before us. Anyway, the module itself is more of a demo showing off CC (of which there is a lot, and of impressive quality) than an actual adventure. The dialogue is zany and humorous, and the storyline interesting enough, but the player is not really given much of anything to do or any choices to make. In particular, as has already been pointed out, the combat is tediously easy, as one is provided with a pregenerated character who has absurdly high stats and absurdly powerful gear (with, more excusably, humorously absurd descriptions), and the monsters have nowhere near the capacities they would need to pose any sort of threat to her. It would have been more interesting if the monsters were formidable enough that fighting them was actually a contest. Failng that, if one wants to keep the "demo" quality, all monsters could be reduced to a single hit point so they could all be killed instantly when hit, saving time.

A Rare Vintage. One of the better submissions, IMHO, although it does suffer from some bugs, polish issues, and incompleteness. Jakkel Dragon has already mentioned a number of these issues, so I will not belabor them. Like him, I encountered the bug at the end where one is unable to report the success of the quest to anyone, get properly rewarded, and officially end the module. Another possible issue is that the path to the west from the "North Hills" area (if I remember the name correctly) that one must take to reach the final fights is easy to overlook (its presence is not obvious on the map, for instance). This path should probably be marked with a map note or otherwise made more obvious. On a similar subject,  the town is not quite fleshed-out properly (understandly so, making "civilian" areas like that, at least ones with any depth, tends to be very time-consuming, in my experience), with a lot of doors, stairways, etc., leading nowhere. Given this it would be nice if the handful of buildings one can actually enter were clearly marked with map notes, so the player does not have to waste time investigating those that are just there for show.

The author has expressed some concern about the module possibly being too hard for the first level characters it was intended for. Personally I found that though it was potentially challenging for a first level character, it was not unreasonably so (though my standards in this matter differ from a lot of other players, and I may not be a reliable judge on this point).

One feature of the module I really like is that one will be given class-specific quests in the course of exploring the town (not certain if every possible class is covered, but many are). However, after I completed my initial run-through of the module I went back with a second character to do a little experimenting with these, and found some possible issues, mainly relating to the fact that it is possible to complete some of these quests before, or without, actually being assigned them. For example, any character can enter the tomb and clear out the undead, and then report to the temple for a reward even if he was never assigned this quest and does not belong to an appropriate class for it. In a similar vein, if you go kill the goblins in the mine before Lord Califar (hope I remembered his name correctly) actually tells you to, you will not be able to report to him that you did so and get rewarded. One way this can happen is if you play a mage, go to the mine for that quest and incidentally kill the goblins in the process, and later level up as a combat class, you will be assigned this quest if you then talk to Califar, but be unable to ever complete it. Ideally it would either not be possible to do any of these quests before they are actually assigned, or there would be a more robust system (presumably with additional conversational options and journal entries) enabling things to be done out of the expected order without issue.

On balance, with some fixes and expansion, this has the potential to be a fun little adventure.

Siege of the Heavens This was my favorite of the submissions, despite the fact that it does some things that in theory I strongly disapprove of. Magical Master has altered some of the normal rules, provided special equipment carefully designed with a thought to play balance, and in general crafted a version of NWN much more console-gamish (or perhaps I should say MMOish, since he mentions being a WoW player) than the standard sort of NWN game. My own approach tends to be more old-school D&Dish, where combat challenge can often be as much a matter of strategically managing resources over a series of encounters as it is about the difficulty of any single enemy, and so I would normally regard some of the things he does, like providing basically unlimited healing and rest, as anathema. However, I have to admit that these things actually work within the context of the very different style of gameplay he has fashioned, and he has managed to present me with something I encounter all too rarely in NWN modules: combat that has some real tactical depth and is a serious challenge. For that I am prepared to forgive him a multitude of offenses.

This module centers around 5 difficult boss-fights. Each boss has special scripted powers that the player will not survive unless he can figure out the trick to doing so. In many cases, this same power also has some associated downside for the boss that is actually the key to winning the fight if the player can figure it out. The battles thus require thought, and usually require precise play to survive even after one has figured out the trick to doing so. It was an entertaining experience for someone who likes tactical combat, and the moments when I realized how I could turn the tables in what initially appeared to be completely hopeless situations were very gratifying.

One minor criticism I have (which may really be my fault for bringing in unnecessary role-playing baggage into a module that is not really about that) concerns one of the bosses, a gigantic spider who, among other things, feeds off several webbed up victims. The player is apparently expected to kill these victims to prevent the spider drawing power from them, but it seemed a bit off to me that there is no way to even attempt to rescue them instead (that would seem the obvious thing for a good-aligned player to try) and I could see some characters (e.g. paladins) having issues with ever simply killing people in such circumstances. But this is a minor thing, and I am actually not certain that it is even necessary to kill them yourself (just letting the spider drain them might not do anything but make the fight last longer - not sure about that).

[meaglyn]

rogueknight333 wrote...

Also, it is labeled as Episode 12, and there is mention somewhere of Episode 1 being available as one of the CCC demo modules. Do episodes 2-11 exist anywhere, or is this series being made out of order? Just curious.

Maybe it's like "Episode IV: A New Hope" and you don't want to see 2-11

A Rare Vintage. One of the better submissions, IMHO, although it does suffer from some bugs, polish issues, and incompleteness. Jakkel Dragon has already mentioned a number of these issues, so I will not belabor them. Like him, I encountered the bug at the end where one is unable to report the success of the quest to anyone, get properly rewarded, and officially end the module.

 
That's not the end, anyway. I have the update in testing finally (other things, like work, 6 year olds have been slowing things down), which fixes that and a number of the other things reported and that I've since found.
I'm hoping to be able to post it tonight.  As an aside, I agree with your comments about the timing of ABC. I was hoping to have a follow-on for this month, but haven't gotten word one of it yet, with trying to fix this one and play the rest.

Another possible issue is that the path to the west from the "North Hills" area (if I remember the name correctly) that one must take to reach the final fights is easy to overlook (its presence is not obvious on the map, for instance). This path should probably be marked with a map note or otherwise made more obvious.

I'll put a map note on that when you talk to Mandis and the Count.  I'm curious, did you find it on the way up or only after you got to the manor? I hid it somewhat so that you would not find it early all the time. I've accounted for you meeting the drivers early.  You don't have to do as much at the Manor if you do meet them. Putting a pin there would help some but you still have to wander close enough to uncover it.

On a similar subject,  the town is not quite fleshed-out properly (understandly so, making "civilian" areas like that, at least ones with any depth, tends to be very time-consuming, in my experience), with a lot of doors, stairways, etc., leading nowhere. Given this it would be nice if the handful of buildings one can actually enter were clearly marked with map notes, so the player does not have to waste time investigating those that are just there for show.

Mapnotes for the buildings of interest are in the update when you ask one of the innkeeper/bartenders to talk about the town. Totally agree with the fleshing out part. Once I had it built, with the time pressure I decided to  focus on (not actually) getting the main quest to work by 3/1.  I'm hoping to use it as a setting in later ones so it'll get more and more fleshed out.
 

The author has expressed some concern about the module possibly being too hard for the first level characters it was intended for. Personally I found that though it was potentially challenging for a first level character, it was not unreasonably so (though my standards in this matter differ from a lot of other players, and I may not be a reliable judge on this point).

Good feedback, thanks.  I'm still struggling to finish without reloading/respawning as a fighter type and I know where everything is...

One feature of the module I really like is that one will be given class-specific quests in the course of exploring the town (not certain if every possible class is covered, but many are). However, after I completed my initial run-through of the module I went back with a second character to do a little experimenting with these, and found some possible issues, mainly relating to the fact that it is possible to complete some of these quests before, or without, actually being assigned them. For example, any character can enter the tomb and clear out the undead, and then report to the temple for a reward even if he was never assigned this quest and does not belong to an appropriate class for it. In a similar vein, if you go kill the goblins in the mine before Lord Califar (hope I remembered his name correctly) actually tells you to, you will not be able to report to him that you did so and get rewarded. One way this can happen is if you play a mage, go to the mine for that quest and incidentally kill the goblins in the process, and later level up as a combat class, you will be assigned this quest if you then talk to Califar, but be unable to ever complete it. Ideally it would either not be possible to do any of these quests before they are actually assigned, or there would be a more robust system (presumably with additional conversational options and journal entries) enabling things to be done out of the expected order without issue.

Thanks, glad you appreciated that.   I found that crypt quest bug last night too. Oops...   That'll be fixed.
I may also just lock the door and have the priest give you the key, but that seems a little over trusting of a
stranger, even for a priest. Similary, might just deactivate the goblin encounter until you talk to Lord Califar.

My thinking was to have the quest just not offered if you kill the stuff first.  It'd be the same as if you said "no, can't help sorry."  I have some work to do if you are legitimately supposed to be able to do the quest and still find the goblin cave first (over active exploring instincts?).  In that case would be nice to have Califar offer it still and then you can immediately finish it  or something.  That'll take some finagling since all of the side quests and conversations on the giver NPCs are driven by the same generic z-dialog script I've been working on.   It's designed for pretty linear quests.  I'll give some thought to generalizing it to handle the PC showing up having already done the work. I can see that being a nice feature.

Fwiw there were supposed to be two non-specific side quests in addition to the class specific ones. 
There are a couple of class specific (or class group specific) ones that did not make it in yet.

On balance, with some fixes and expansion, this has the potential to be a fun little adventure.

Thanks for taking the time to play it and comment.

[rogueknight333]

meaglyn wrote...

Another possible issue is that the path to the west from the "North Hills" area (if I remember the name correctly) that one must take to reach the final fights is easy to overlook (its presence is not obvious on the map, for instance). This path should probably be marked with a map note or otherwise made more obvious.

I'll put a map note on that when you talk to Mandis and the Count.  I'm curious, did you find it on the way up or only after you got to the manor? I hid it somewhat so that you would not find it early all the time. I've accounted for you meeting the drivers early.  You don't have to do as much at the Manor if you do meet them. Putting a pin there would help some but you still have to wander close enough to uncover it.

On the way up I completely missed the fact any path was even there, and after going to the manor I was unsure exactly where I was supposed to go next as a result and had to search around a bit to find it (given the unpolished state of some of these modules I was worried for a minute that the path had never actually been put in). If you want to discourage people from going that way before heading to the manor you could just set things so the area transition only works after the player has been to the manor.

meaglyn wrote...
 

The author has expressed some concern about the module possibly being too hard for the first level characters it was intended for. Personally I found that though it was potentially challenging for a first level character, it was not unreasonably so (though my standards in this matter differ from a lot of other players, and I may not be a reliable judge on this point).

 

Good feedback, thanks.  I'm still struggling to finish without reloading/respawning as a fighter type and I know where everything is...

Well, I appreciate a lot more challenge than many, perhaps most NWN players do, so, again, I may not be the best person to advise you on this particular point. But that was my impression, FWIW.

Modifié par rogueknight333, 07 mars 2013 - 01:16 .

[meaglyn]

rogueknight333 wrote...

On the way up I completely missed the fact any path was even there, and after going to the manor I was unsure exactly where I was supposed to go next as a result and had to search around a bit to find it (given the unpolished state of some of these modules I was worried for a minute that the path had never actually been put in). If you want to discourage people from going that way before heading to the manor you could just set things so the area transition only works after the player has been to the manor.

Discourage as in make harder, not prevent    If you find it on the way up (and meet the drivers) then you don't
have to find the note at the manor. You can tell the Count you saw men matching that description blah blah...
I just didn't want that to be the easy path, either way is fine. But you do have to able to find it on the way back.

I'll explore the area for the player and put it a map pin for that.
 

Well, I appreciate a lot more challenge than many, perhaps most NWN players do, so, again, I may not be the best person to advise you on this particular point. But that was my impression, FWIW.

I'm enjoying the challenge myself. The key to fighter types seems to be to make sure you get enough XP to level-up. I might spread some of the main quest XP around early to make that a little easier... like for figuring out what to do at the manor.  
Thanks again...

[Rolo Kipp]

<firmly and obstinately...>

First off, let me comment that I think the comments here (in particular RK333, MM and JK) are very well done with intelligent observation, pertinent suggestions  and, most importantly, courtesy and respect. It just reminds me why I love you guys so much :-)

rogueknight333 wrote...
I have now played all the modules submitted in the February ABC, so I will attempt some commentary on them.
...
Hordes! This little module accomplishes its purpose of being a short amusing interlude well enough (hard to say much more about it without being spoilerish). Like other submissions it is unfinished, ending with notes for what the final cutscene is supposed to be rather than the actual cutscene. Aside from that, the only significant criticism of it I have is that the documentation included with the download does not make clear what hakpaks are required to play it (I had to check this thread to find that information).

Hah! Henesua has beaten me soundly about the head and shoulders (with an old and very fragile scroll, btw) for that. Truth is I *meant* to write the readme... I *thought* I wrote the readme... *sigh* I'll see about getting around to scribbling something illegible I can pass off... wait. I might have some of those! :-)

Also, it is labeled as Episode 12, and there is mention somewhere of Episode 1 being available as one of the CCC demo modules. Do episodes 2-11 exist anywhere, or is this series being made out of order? Just curious.

I originally conceived the campaign as a thread of demo modules that showcased the monthly CCC - including inserting custom avatars of the "usual suspects" to have some fun with. While I was doing the heavy work (that AD is doing now) I never quite got around to building any of them (My big mistake was waiting for a certain tileset in Oriental...:-P ).

However, the 12 episodes so far are blocked out and the empty placeholder mods are sitting on my harddrive. The order I make them in depends somewhat on the ABC seeds we get, just as the shape of the episode is completely at the whim of our beloved CCC.

That was one of the things that kept me interested, that I had to organically grow the campaign over a year without knowing in advance where we as a community were going.

The next one I bash together will be Episode 11: Into the Green which will make as much use of the Sea, Air Land challenge as I can. After that? Who knows... Maybe I can get back to Episode 2: Oni the Lonely with Oriental Settings ;-)

@ Meaglyn: :-P :-)

<...straddling his favorite fences>

Modifié par Rolo Kipp, 07 mars 2013 - 05:15 .

[MagicalMaster]

rogueknight333 wrote...

I suppose I might try to look up the resref of the needed item in the toolset and try to debug-mode that in as well, but I think I will wait for an updated version to be made available instead.

With no offense intended to Werelynx, I think I will wait as well, but please do let me (us) know when a fixed version is available.

rogueknight333 wrote...

The pre-placed creatures meant that the script started running when the module started loading (they were "entering" the area at that point), which meant that the creature would spawn, which meant that a new object had entered, and thus the script would run again ad infinitum, spawning endless creatures and consuming all processing power in the process. Good times.

I taught myself basic programming in NWN...which had a few downsides.  Like how a DelayCommand to do a psuedo-heartbeat actually finishes out the function that closes it...unlike recursion in something like C, where the original call of the function remains open until the recursion finishes.  Took a programming course to learn more, used a recursive call to simulate a menu (I thought "Hey, this will loop indefinitely until quit out of" since I didn't know what a sentinel loop was).  Professor yelled at me and told me it was the worst code she had seen in her life.  Good times.

rogueknight333 wrote...

Black Book. This module and the custom content it is showing off were apparently made by some sort of weird hyena creature. Hard to believe such an entity could produce something like this, but the evidence is here before us

Rogueknight333, rogueknight333, rogueknight333.

I am very disappointed.  To quote the glorious ReadMe:

"As this Module was made in six seconds by hitting it with a brick"

How dare you not memorize its holy writ, good sir.  The hyena hit the module with a brick to make it.  Is that clear enough for your bigoted unworthy anti-hyena mind to understand?

rogueknight333 wrote...

It was an entertaining experience for someone who likes tactical combat, and the moments when I realized how I could turn the tables in what initially appeared to be completely hopeless situations were very gratifying.

Thanks for the glowing words.  Mind if I quote you on that?  (Seriously, it's an extremely lucid explanation of what to expect (and not to expect) from the module).

rogueknight333 wrote...

One minor criticism I have (which may really be my fault for bringing in unnecessary role-playing baggage into a module that is not really about that) concerns one of the bosses, a gigantic spider who, among other things, feeds off several webbed up victims. The player is apparently expected to kill these victims to prevent the spider drawing power from them, but it seemed a bit off to me that there is no way to even attempt to rescue them instead (that would seem the obvious thing for a good-aligned player to try) and I could see some characters (e.g. paladins) having issues with ever simply killing people in such circumstances. But this is a minor thing, and I am actually not certain that it is even necessary to kill them yourself (just letting the spider drain them might not do anything but make the fight last longer - not sure about that).

I was wondering if anyone would mention something along these lines.

First, no, if you don't stop the spider from draining them it's designed to kill you - an extremely defensive build might be able to survive, but it would be pretty brutal.

Second, part of the problem is difficulty and constraints.  Theoretically you'd want either method (somehow rescue the victims or killing the victims when she siphons) to be equally difficult (or at least, not significantly harder with one method).  I know a common idea in DnD is that sometimes Good has it harder because they can't take the shortcuts of Evil, but I can't make it so much harder that it's undoable and I also don't want to make it pitifully easy for Evil.  Furthermore, if it was possible to rescue them, and especially if it make the fight slightly easier, I'd expect all Evil players to do it too since a larger army to fight against the invaders would be beneficial.

Third, I mainly figured that a rescue, though people would like it, wouldn't be reasonable. You have a gigantic planar spider with victims webbed and paralyzed with powerful magics. Trying to somehow free them with an angry spider spitting acid and webs at you didn't seem feasible.  Doing something before the fight wouldn't seem to make sense, either, since the spider would notice you were messing with her food and attack.  If a man came up to a paladin, saying he had been cursed and would explode in a minute, killing everyone within a mile unless he was killed by a blessed weapon first, and the paladin couldn't figure out a better solution within that minute, I'd expect the paladin to strike the man down.  He'd hate doing it and feel guility (unlike a Blackguard who might just enjoy killing), but he'd still do it.

All that said, I am definitely open to suggestions on this.  I figured it would be casualties of war, that the hero doesn't always save everyone.  I could make the victims demons or devils that the spider decided to eat.  I could also make breaking the webbing release the victim if the player is actually attacking it and have an angel spawn and teleport out or something.  Or I could try something completely different with the fight playing out differently depending on what you choose to do.  Like I said, open to suggestions.

Meaglyn wrote...

That's not the end, anyway. I have the update in testing finally (other  things, like work, 6 year olds have been slowing things down), which  fixes that and a number of the other things reported and that I've since found.  I'm hoping to be able to post it tonight.

Could you know us know when it's up?  I imagine some feedback on the newer version would be more helpful than more stuff on the older version at this point, right?  TRYING TO IGNORE SPOILERS AS I READ HERE.

rogueknight333 wrote...

Well, I appreciate a lot more challenge than many, perhaps most NWN players do, so, again, I may not be the best person to advise you on this particular point. But that was my impression, FWIW.

As I noted earlier in the thread, the same is true with me - so take anything either of us say with a grain of salt in that regard.  What we consider easy (or enjoyable) may be nightmarishly frustrating for others.  But we'll try to provide accurate feedback and take that into account.

Modifié par MagicalMaster, 08 mars 2013 - 12:46 .

[meaglyn]

It's up now. This one should work better...

[MagicalMaster]

Cool. What would you like for me to play through it as?

[rogueknight333]

MagicalMaster wrote...

rogueknight333 wrote...

It was an entertaining experience for someone who likes tactical combat, and the moments when I realized how I could turn the tables in what initially appeared to be completely hopeless situations were very gratifying.

Thanks for the glowing words.  Mind if I quote you on that?  (Seriously, it's an extremely lucid explanation of what to expect (and not to expect) from the module).

Feel free, but I have just left a vote on your module page in which I quote myself, so perhaps I have spared you the trouble.

MagicalMaster wrote...

...Third, I mainly figured that a rescue, though people would like it, wouldn't be reasonable. You have a gigantic planar spider with victims webbed and paralyzed with powerful magics. Trying to somehow free them with an angry spider spitting acid and webs at you didn't seem feasible.  Doing something before the fight wouldn't seem to make sense, either, since the spider would notice you were messing with her food and attack.  If a man came up to a paladin, saying he had been cursed and would explode in a minute, killing everyone within a mile unless he was killed by a blessed weapon first, and the paladin couldn't figure out a better solution within that minute, I'd expect the paladin to strike the man down.  He'd hate doing it and feel guility (unlike a Blackguard who might just enjoy killing), but he'd still do it.

Maybe, though it is kind of the point of paladins (at least as I tend to play them) that they stick to their principles no matter what the consequences. However that may be, there is nothing necessarily wrong with presenting the player with excruciating moral dilemmas (though in such situations, I think as a matter of general RPG design philosophy one should offer the player some choice about how to handle the matter, even if no choice is going to be perfectly satisfactory). Just check out Baldecaran's Prophet series, for example. However, in that case, the moral dilemmas were the main point, and many things in the series were thematically organized around them. In a module like yours, a role-play light series of combats, something like this just seems out of place. One is distracted from thinking about tactics by the sudden emergence of a role-play issue that does not really mesh with the mood or style of the module.

MagicalMaster wrote...
Second, part of the problem is difficulty and constraints. Theoretically you'd want either method (somehow rescue the victims or killing the victims when she siphons) to be equally difficult (or at least, not significantly harder with one method). I know a common idea in DnD is that sometimes Good has it harder because they can't take the shortcuts of Evil, but I can't make it so much harder that it's undoable and I also don't want to make it pitifully easy for Evil. Furthermore, if it was possible to rescue them, and especially if it make the fight slightly easier, I'd expect all Evil players to do it too since a larger army to fight against the invaders would be beneficial...

...All that said, I am definitely open to suggestions on this. I figured it would be casualties of war, that the hero doesn't always save everyone. I could make the victims demons or devils that the spider decided to eat. I could also make breaking the webbing release the victim if the player is actually attacking it and have an angel spawn and teleport out or something. Or I could try something completely different with the fight playing out differently depending on what you choose to do. Like I said, open to suggestions.

It basically depends on how much extra trouble you want to go to. Setting up the scenario so the spider in its insane voracity is even consuming some of its own demonic minions (or perhaps damned souls it brought up from hell that deserve their fate) would be a simple, low-cost way of addressing the issue. Another fairly simple way would be to set it up so the player is cutting the victims free of the webbing, rather than killing them, but upon accomplishing this, the victim just stumbles out and promptly expires from his wounds (basically achieving the same end result in a less morally problematic way). It would obviously be much more work and might involve some tricky managing of balance issues to set things up so that the player can either kill or rescue the victims, with different consequnces depending on which is chosen (e.g., a scenario in which killing the victim allows the PC to absorb some power from him, while freeing him only denies that power to the big spider), but that would be a possibility, and one that could add some more depth to the module (though it also might inappropriately raise expectations about the amount of role-playing content if you never do anything like that again).

meaglyn wrote...

It's up now. This one should work better...

Good to hear. I will try to play the new and improved version at some point. Not sure how soon I will be able to find the time.

[meaglyn]

MagicalMaster wrote...

Cool. What would you like for me to play through it as?

Anything you want...  the toughness will vary.  

I haven't tried it as a straight rogue. It occurs to me that will be tough since you won't
currently get a class specific side-quest. You may not get enough XP to level up in time.

I've done wiz, ranger, druid, paladin.  Jackkel Dragon did a wizard up to the broken spot. 
I don't recall if RogueKnight333 said what he played as. But he got stuck before the end too.

[werelynx]

@rogueknight333 & Magical Master: I'm sorry, with new term starting right through the challenge I had to rush the module and had no time to properly test it.
Mea culpa.

On the other hand I have tested it today with my cousin(~10 years old, female).
She liked HnS elements(as always and one particular fire grenade.
We used a lot of Debug commands

Again I'm sorry, I'm going to fix the "convo appears when" issues.

Even then the polymorph system will not be there to play with.
Stupid studies.

[MagicalMaster]

meaglyn wrote...

Anything you want...  the toughness will vary.  

I haven't tried it as a straight rogue. It occurs to me that will be tough since you won't
currently get a class specific side-quest. You may not get enough XP to level up in time.

Have a preference on what type of rogue (strength or dex)?

[MagicalMaster]

rogueknight333 wrote...

Feel free, but I have just left a vote on your module page in which I quote myself, so perhaps I have spared you the trouble.

Mostly, yeah - still temped to put it in the description section, though.

rogueknight333 wrote...

Maybe, though it is kind of the point of paladins (at least as I tend to play them) that they stick to their principles no matter what the consequences.

Not to the point of being Lawful Stupid, however.  Yes, Paladins would prefer to tell the truth, but one would expect a paladin to lie in order to save an innocent life.  That said, we should probably take any further discussion on this point to PMs or another thread.

rogueknight333 wrote...

However that may be, there is nothing necessarily wrong with presenting the player with excruciating moral dilemmas (though in such situations, I think as a matter of general RPG design philosophy one should offer the player some choice about how to handle the matter, even if no choice is going to be perfectly satisfactory). Just check out Baldecaran's Prophet series, for example. However, in that case, the moral dilemmas were the main point, and many things in the series were thematically organized around them. In a module like yours, a role-play light series of combats, something like this just seems out of place. One is distracted from thinking about tactics by the sudden emergence of a role-play issue that does not really mesh with the mood or style of the module.

It was never meant to be an excruciating moral dilemma (since dilemma implies choice and it wasn't supposed to be excruciating regardless), just a  "well, that sucks, but war sucks" type of thing.  But yeah, I can see how people could consider it more important than it was meant to be.

rogueknight333 wrote...

- the spider in its insane voracity is even consuming some of its own demonic minions
-  victim just stumbles out and promptly expires from his wounds (basically achieving the same end result in a less morally problematic way).

Between those two options and third where an angel emerges at low health and is teleported away, which of the three would you suggest/prefer?

rogueknight333 wrote...

(though it also might inappropriately raise expectations about the amount of role-playing content if you never do anything like that again).

Yeah, that would be my concern for anything more.  Due to the whole time constraint thing the focus was meant to be focused on the combat and I don't think anything similar would come up during the remaining bosses.

[rogueknight333]

MagicalMaster wrote...

It was never meant to be an excruciating moral dilemma (since dilemma implies choice and it wasn't supposed to be excruciating regardless), just a  "well, that sucks, but war sucks" type of thing.  But yeah, I can see how people could consider it more important than it was meant to be.

Well, I do not think it would have been an altogether unreasonable response to me, or someone else who raised a similar objection, to just say something like "This isn't some heavy role-play module exploring deep philosophical issues. Stop overthinking it so much." But since you are taking my criticism of it seriously...

MagicalMaster wrote...

rogueknight333 wrote...

- the spider in its insane voracity is even consuming some of its own demonic minions
-  victim just stumbles out and promptly expires from his wounds (basically achieving the same end result in a less morally problematic way).

Between those two options and third where an angel emerges at low health and is teleported away, which of the three would you suggest/prefer?

...I tend to prefer the third option (angel is freed and then flies off or teleports away), since it would give a player a nice sense of having accomplished something. But if it is important to you to preserve some of the tragic element than option two does that (and changes things the least from your original concept). Actually, since there are three victims, it would be possible to implement all three of these if you wanted to.

[werelynx]

So I have fixed the issues you told me about. I have uploaded the fixed version to its respective page at the vault.

If you have a little more patience I will try to include everything that was originally intended by the end of this month.

I am sorry I do not currently have enough time to play your modules, guys. On the other hand I have not played NWN for almost 2 months and toolset is just not enough for my NWNaddiction.

[meaglyn]

@MagicalMaster: Anything you willing to play works for me. Thanks for the interest. I should be getting clobbered by Siege soon. The only 40th level character I've ever been close to was in Black Book

@RogueKnight333: No Hurries. Thanks for being willing to try it again.

[MagicalMaster]

rogueknight333 wrote...

Well, I do not think it would have been an altogether unreasonable response to me, or someone else who raised a similar objection, to just say something like "This isn't some heavy role-play module exploring deep philosophical issues. Stop overthinking it so much." But since you are taking my criticism of it seriously...

Well, I'm taking it seriously for a few reasons:

First, based on what I've seen, I respect your opinion.  Doesn't mean we'll agree on everything or that I'll always change something if you mention it, but at a minimum I think it's worth carefully considering your opinion.

Second, this isn't something fundamental to the module or (at the other extreme) something I feel is incredibly nitpicky.  Like complaining about the fact you can't Dev Crit everything or saying how the way I've represented the celestial realm is wrong because of sourcebook X, respectively.  After I finished the fight I wondered if anyone would bring this subject up but decided to leave it alone for the moment.  If I can figure out a reasonable way to change it that doesn't compromise something essential and would make people happier, I don't see a reason not to do it.

Third, human psychology being what it is, we tend to over inflate things we dislike unless we make an extremely concious effort to weigh everything carefully.  If a person sees five things they really like in a module and one thing they really dislike in a module (and we assume they are equally weighted in theory), that one negative likely will outweigh the positives for most people.  In that sense, eliminating things that people dislike is often a better way to make people happier than trying to add new things that people like.

In short, I could say "This isn't some heavy role-play module exploring deep philosophical issues. Stop overthinking it so much" but if it's easy enough to fix and make people more satisified, why not do it?

MagicalMaster wrote...

...I tend to prefer the third option (angel is freed and then flies off or teleports away), since it would give a player a nice sense of having accomplished something. But if it is important to you to preserve some of the tragic element than option two does that (and changes things the least from your original concept). Actually, since there are three victims, it would be possible to implement all three of these if you wanted to.

It's not really important.  Thought process pretty much went like this:

1. Spider needs something to eat.
2. Most obvious answer would be captured angels.
3. How to stop spider from feeding paralyzed angels?
4. Have to kill them
5. Possible that some people may dislike this?
6. Yeah, but war can suck

However, you took the additional step of going from "I wish we didn't have to kill the angels" to "I want to rescue the angels" which I wasn't sure anyone would do.

meaglyn wrote...

@MagicalMaster: Anything you willing to
play works for me. Thanks for the interest. I should be getting
clobbered by Siege soon. The only 40th level character I've ever been
close to was in Black Book

Eh, guess I'll go "traditional" dex rogue then.

And yeah, one of the reasons I was interested in making Siege is because there are basically no level 40 modules out there, thought it would be something unique.

P.S. If you wait at least a few hours for v1_03, the third boss will be "happier."

Modifié par MagicalMaster, 10 mars 2013 - 12:15 .

[PLUSH HYENA of DOOM]

Dashing about like a lunatic at present doing assorted things INCLUDING my second ABC episode and have not had time to test February's Mods yet (including my own) though I still intend to get round to it.

Just a quick note of thanks to those who have provided commentary upon BLACK BOOK which seems grotesquely, underservedly positive for something done so freakishly quickly (with a brick) whilst so many other unpleasant things were distracting me.
All comments processed and examined and hopefully addressed by Episode 2 SILVER SPHERE which should make Starbright and Aurelia's return a somewhat smoother, richer experience... Eugh. Sounds like some sort of disgusting frothy coffee.

Revisions to BLACK BOOK are liable to involve a total remake of 99% of it, so it'll probably only be available when the first "trilogy" is done and gets its own Vault page. Meanwhile, back to Episode 2... Thanks again. Your input has been useful!

[MagicalMaster]

Meaglyn, been busy last day or two with real life and adjusting some stuff in my mod, I'll play yours within the next two to three days tops (hopefully tomorrow).

Werelynx, if we were interested in playing your module, would you suggest we do so now or wait until you finish adding the stuff you originally wanted it to have?

Added Siege of the Heavens v1_03:

- Selenoth the Hungerer is a potentially less depressing encounter
- Adjusted tuning slightly on Selenoth the Hungerer

[werelynx]

@MagicalMaster: Well, I would wait if I were you. I need to investigate "the brick method" PHoD mentions. Maybe it will speed up things.
Anyway I'm going back to my den to finish up those lime blancmanges..

[Rolo Kipp]

<looking quite...>

I think the bash-with-a-brick technique is a canine thing, WL.
I'd think sitting arrogantly atop some wizard's important papers and staring hautily at him would work better for felines.

At least, that's the technique Vampyvet's Craycray uses on me. :-P

Whoa. Wait a minute. Lime? *Lime* blancmange? <he said that>
No one said anything about *lime* blancmange. <he did. Just now>
Deal breaker. <deal with it, mister-I-like-horrid-goo-like-substance>
Nope. Running now. <ahead of you, boss>
Damn your wings :-/ <*raven chuckle*>

<...alarmed>

Modifié par Rolo Kipp, 13 mars 2013 - 12:47 .

[MagicalMaster]

So, just did Rare Vintage.  Level 1 Human Rogue, 10/18/14/14/8/8 for stats, Point Blank Shot and Toughness.  Liked the storyline in general.

Scattered notes from while playing (not posting these on Vault so as to not sully it):

Please lock doors if they do not go anywhere so we don't go crazy trying every single one.

Silver Goblet owner has no store.

Do you care about typos?  Some missing periods, priest says "I server" a god instead of "served"

Paus Derman at the market has no store. Not being able to buy anything is kind of awful - can't get a crossbow or short bow for my rogue.

Update: he has a store OUTSIDE, but not in his home, though he gives the dialogue option.

Since I couldn't find any quests in town, I explored west since I saw a road leading that way.

Killed some goblins and beetles - no one seemed to care.

Also killed skeletons in crypt since it was marked on map.

Why did the wolves start out neutral - given your statement of "DON'T ATTACK ANYTHING NEUTRAL" I didn't expect them to turn hostile.

Bandits shouldn't be that close to the area transition.  I also lured them to the house guard - intended?

Cool chasm.

Kited the bandits at the cave - giving them longswords that can one shot (non crit) most level 1 characters seems odd (they can do at least 10 damage). The fight is completely luck based.

Respawn in place?

Bandit chief can do 13 damage - this will one shot a fighter with 14 con and Toughness, or 16 con and no toughness.  Respawn galore.

Hit level 2 after killing bandit chief.

I was able to pick the lock inside the warehouse on the metal door - then I got a key from the boss.  That meant to happen?

Just gave up and kept respawning on battle in warehouse - would keep randomly dying within a second by two hits landing.

May want to actually end the module at the end.

Modifié par MagicalMaster, 14 mars 2013 - 07:01 .

[meaglyn]

@MagicalMaster: Thanks for playing it and the detailed notes. You seem to have hit a few of the known incompletenesses...

MagicalMaster wrote...
Please lock doors if they do not go anywhere so we don't go crazy trying every single one.

The town is incomplete, as I mentioned. I put map pins in for the useful places if you ask one of the barkeeps about the town. Of course you still have to explore enough to see them. Crypt one was supposed to be disabled until you got that quest. Still okay to get the XP and minor loot from killing them.

Not sure exactly how locking them would make a difference. You still have to go up and try it, and try to pick it...
That doesn't seem to make much difference if it then opens to no where or says key required at that point.
But yes, I feel your pain. Sorry about all that walking around...

Since I couldn't find any quests in town, I explored west since I saw a road leading that way.

I mentioned that there was no specific in town quest for rogues and that was going to make it tough to
level up before the bandits. This is part of that. You do want to get the XP for the beetles and goblins anyway.

Why did the wolves start out neutral - given your statement of "DON'T ATTACK ANYTHING NEUTRAL" I didn't expect them to turn hostile.

hhm, I said "don't attack neutral people for no reason".  Only those ranger/druid types count wolves as people

Bandits shouldn't be that close to the area transition.  I also lured them to the house guard - intended?

Cool chasm.

The bandits are supposed to be an ambush. Did the area transition itself cause you problems? e.g. popping
back through it by accident.

Can't take credit for the chasm, that's _six's work. I liked it too. Not sure the bandits would realisticly want to haul
the crates back and forth across the bridge, but it looks nice...


As to the group of comments related to the boss fights...

It's easy to die in those fights. I have found it's important to level up before the bandits as I said and we talked about how that would be hard for a rogue without the extra XP for one of the side-quests in town.  I'll balance the rogue better with that and some sort of helpful toy. As to respawning in place, don't die Or reload instead. I should disable respawn, I suppose. This was a one month effort (actually closer to two weeks) and far from full time, remember. A custom death/respawn system would have come at the expense of completing the main quest.
Plus, I never like respawn anyway...

The bandit chief will not follow you out of the back cave until his men are dead. So you can draw them away and 
make that easier. As I said, I have not played it as a rogue yet (still). But in theory you can pickpocket the needed
quest item from him and not fight at all. Not sure how realistic that is for a first level rogue though.  Maybe a
potion of invisibility...

Luck certainly plays a role (or roll in D&D games. But yes, that should be a bit less painful. Reverting to
short swords is not a bad idea.

Thanks for the feedback. I appreciate the time. I've learned a lot from all of this. Some of issues were cut corners and such due to time. But many are first time module builder mistakes which I'll take to heart. That's part of why I put the time into doing the ABC. 

I'm still wading through hell hounds and vrocks in my +6 armor, very different feel from  struggling to survive a single sword blow.

Cheers,
Meaglyn

[MagicalMaster]

meaglyn wrote...

The town is incomplete, as I mentioned. I put map pins in for the useful places if you ask one of the barkeeps about the town. Of course you still have to explore enough to see them. Crypt one was supposed to be disabled until you got that quest. Still okay to get the XP and minor loot from killing them.

Not sure exactly how locking them would make a difference. You still have to go up and try it, and try to pick it...
That doesn't seem to make much difference if it then opens to no where or says key required at that point.
But yes, I feel your pain. Sorry about all that walking around...

True.  Hmm.  Part of the problem is that I explored prior to talking to the barkeep, meaning I found working doors before I had map pins.  Which meant I was wondering about every door.  Might want to just start off with the map pins.

meaglyn wrote...

I mentioned that there was no specific in town quest for rogues and that was going to make it tough to
level up before the bandits. This is part of that. You do want to get the XP for the beetles and goblins anyway.

Yeah, those notes were somewhat stream of consciousness and not really proof-read or carefully considered

meaglyn wrote...

hhm, I said "don't attack neutral people for no reason".  Only those ranger/druid types count wolves as people

Heh.  Well, maybe I'm at a disadvantage due to knowing something about factions.  If the wolves were set as commoners/merchants/defenders and factions were global, attacking them would make the actual people attack me.

meaglyn wrote...

The bandits are supposed to be an ambush. Did the area transition itself cause you problems? e.g. popping
back through it by accident.

Yes, but also it's just not realistic - they're not hiding, so you'd see them on the road, not have them appear 10 feet away.  If you want to stealth them or something for an ambush, that could work (which means they take longer to approach and you might spot them).

In general, though, spawning stuff practically on top of ranged characters without them being able to react is rather unfair.  Especially for a mage.  A mage not noticing the bandits or blindly running ahead and thus dying = fair.  Transitioning into a zone and OH GOD BANDITS ON ME I DIED = not fair.  It really breaks the immersion as well since the whole idea of an area transition is a game limitation.

meaglyn wrote...

I should disable respawn, I suppose. This was a one month effort (actually closer to two weeks) and far from full time, remember. A custom death/respawn system would have come at the expense of completing the main quest.
Plus, I never like respawn anyway...

Yeah, I understand, just saying even disabling respawn would have been perfectly fine.

meaglyn wrote...

The bandit chief will not follow you out of the back cave until his men are dead. So you can draw them away and 
make that easier.

Oh, I did.  Fought the one to the north first, then two from the leader's room, then the leader.

meaglyn wrote...

As I said, I have not played it as a rogue yet (still). But in theory you can pickpocket the needed
quest item from him and not fight at all. Not sure how realistic that is for a first level rogue though.  Maybe a
potion of invisibility...

Didn't have pickpocket but it wouldn't really work anyway - even with 18 Dex you'd only have 8 Pickpocket with a DC of 30.

meaglyn wrote...

Luck certainly plays a role (or roll in D&D games. But yes, that should be a bit less painful. Reverting to
short swords is not a bad idea.

Honestly, I'd say daggers for the bandits and slings for the ranged attackers.  Presumably the idea is that getting hit means you have to use healing potions, right, and that getting hit too much will run you out of potions and killl you (or kill you if you don't heal)?  Hit points are simply so low at early levels compared to weapon dice, and the idea is punishing stupid play, not risking random deaths, I'd imagine.

meaglyn wrote...

Thanks for the feedback. I appreciate the time. I've learned a lot from all of this. Some of issues were cut corners and such due to time. But many are first time module builder mistakes which I'll take to heart. That's part of why I put the time into doing the ABC.

And that's why we're providing said feedback (and why we're not tarnishing the vault page with this stuff for a beta mod).

meaglyn wrote...

I'm still wading through hell hounds and vrocks in my +6 armor, very different feel from  struggling to survive a single sword blow.

Slightly different, yes