213 réponses à ce sujet

[ASmoothCriminalx]

I prefer Damage (coupled with survivor loadout)
Hawk
Recharge time
No.

A frequent, infinite stagger is too good to pass up, IMO.

[Silvair]

Felis Menari wrote...

Feneckus wrote...

Samerandomscreennameidontcareabout wrote...

Thanks for triggering the Pretorians anti-power bubble. Please, for the love of god, spec out of missile launcher.

Finally, someone who has seen the light.

I thought I was the only one 

We will not be pigeonholed due to your unwillingness to cope with a shift in combat tactics. Blast the bubbled praetorian with weapons fire until it crumples to the ground, and then unload with all of your fury while it advances at a reduced movement speed. It's not a big deal, folks.

Which, concidentally, is my tactic for them and phantoms.


IT's one of two reasons phantoms are no issue.  THe first being that due to revenant's spread, they can't escape by flipping or cloaking.  Second being Cobra makes them stay still to bubble, making them vulnerable to UNLOADING on them.

I never even noticed that Praetorians had bubbles, to be honest.  Doesn't seem to make a difference.  I just keep shooting.

[HolyAvenger]

Silvair wrote...
I never even noticed that Praetorians had bubbles, to be honest.  Doesn't seem to make a difference.  I just keep shooting.

Never ever played a caster or grenadier?




...seems legit

[Dunvi]

Just ran some numbers really quickly. It's nearly impossible for the HML to ever stagger even a phantom on gold - it can only hit that magic 1000N if you take HML evolution 2 (rank 4 force & damage evolution), hydra missiles, and all 3 missiles land at the same time. Max force of a cobra is 650N.

Conclusion? The things are abso-freaking-lutely useless. Spec for multi-frags and you can stagger phantoms without any f&d evolutions. Take just 1 of the f&d evolutions or take both passive power evolutions and you can stagger bosses on gold. In fact, you can break the platinum boss stagger threshold (2000N) ridiculously easy, something most of the vanguards can't do (there's a reason the drellguard is one of the better vanguards on platinum).

[Feneckus]

Felis Menari wrote...

It's not a big deal, folks.

Not for you it's not.

For the rest of your team, it is. Not being able to use your powers for a significant percentage of the round kind of IS a big deal.

That's why I won't ever revive you when you go down and I'll try to kick you after the game. Be a team player or GTFO.

Not really your fault, it's another of Biower's stupid gameplay design, but I don't care.

[stysiaq]

Silvair wrote...

I never even noticed that Praetorians had bubbles, to be honest.  Doesn't seem to make a difference.  I just keep shooting.

It may be a graphical glitch. I'd reinstall the game

[Dunvi]

Silvair wrote...

IT's one of two reasons phantoms are no issue.  THe first being that due to revenant's spread, they can't escape by flipping or cloaking.  Second being Cobra makes them stay still to bubble, making them vulnerable to UNLOADING on them.

Silvair, if this is your tactic for phantoms, I can't imagine that you kill them at all efficiently.

And yes, I agree with Feneckus, I'm not reviving you if you go down in the middle of a clusterf*ck if this is how you play. Because you actively negate a good portion (if not most of) my own DPS, which frankly is probably a lot higher than yours if you're so freaking obsessed with that revenant.

Modifié par Dunvi, 05 février 2013 - 11:51 .

[Felis Menari]

Dunvi wrote...

Just ran some numbers really quickly. It's nearly impossible for the HML to ever stagger even a phantom on gold - it can only hit that magic 1000N if you take HML evolution 2 (rank 4 force & damage evolution), hydra missiles, and all 3 missiles land at the same time. Max force of a cobra is 650N.

Conclusion? The things are abso-freaking-lutely useless. Spec for multi-frags and you can stagger phantoms without any f&d evolutions. Take just 1 of the f&d evolutions or take both passive power evolutions and you can stagger bosses on gold. In fact, you can break the platinum boss stagger threshold (2000N) ridiculously easy, something most of the vanguards can't do (there's a reason the drellguard is one of the better vanguards on platinum).

Hydras aren't as good at staggering boss units as Cobras, despite what the difference in numbers may lead you to believe. And you don't need to stagger a phantom in order to kill it .

Modifié par Felis Menari, 05 février 2013 - 11:50 .

[HolyAvenger]

Felis Menari wrote...

Dunvi wrote...

Just ran some numbers really quickly. It's nearly impossible for the HML to ever stagger even a phantom on gold - it can only hit that magic 1000N if you take HML evolution 2 (rank 4 force & damage evolution), hydra missiles, and all 3 missiles land at the same time. Max force of a cobra is 650N.

Conclusion? The things are abso-freaking-lutely useless. Spec for multi-frags and you can stagger phantoms without any f&d evolutions. Take just 1 of the f&d evolutions or take both passive power evolutions and you can stagger bosses on gold. In fact, you can break the platinum boss stagger threshold (2000N) ridiculously easy, something most of the vanguards can't do (there's a reason the drellguard is one of the better vanguards on platinum).

Hydras aren't as good at staggering boss units as Cobras, despite what the difference in numbers may lead you to believe. And you don't need to stagger a phantom in order to kill it .

Dunvi is talking about gold and plat stagger thresholds.

You might not be familiar with them.

[Rinzler]

i spec for damage and use a juggernaut armor mod.
0 points in that missile launcher and full points everywhere else. damage and number of grenades fired per shot are the grenade options i take.
It's OP for silver, does a good job on gold. never played platinum so you need someone else for that advice

[stysiaq]

To be honest, triggering Praetorians bubble isnt THAT tragic. It triggers it when it is attacked by powers while flying. The sooner you trigger it, the sooner it will end. The worst possible moment to do it is a while before it lands (it doesn't trigger the bubble when it's on the ground), but that rarely happens. So most of the times you'll just have to wait a couple of seconds when the Praetorian's on the ground. It's not that bad, but still annoying, considering the Carnage Crustacean could be already detonated once or twice.

If the Missle Launcher was controllable (it could be an active power) it would be a lot better. In this state, I wouldn't use it.

edited typos.

Modifié par stysiaq, 05 février 2013 - 12:06 .

[Felis Menari]

HolyAvenger wrote...

Felis Menari wrote...

Dunvi wrote...

Just ran some numbers really quickly. It's nearly impossible for the HML to ever stagger even a phantom on gold - it can only hit that magic 1000N if you take HML evolution 2 (rank 4 force & damage evolution), hydra missiles, and all 3 missiles land at the same time. Max force of a cobra is 650N.

Conclusion? The things are abso-freaking-lutely useless. Spec for multi-frags and you can stagger phantoms without any f&d evolutions. Take just 1 of the f&d evolutions or take both passive power evolutions and you can stagger bosses on gold. In fact, you can break the platinum boss stagger threshold (2000N) ridiculously easy, something most of the vanguards can't do (there's a reason the drellguard is one of the better vanguards on platinum).

Hydras aren't as good at staggering boss units as Cobras, despite what the difference in numbers may lead you to believe. And you don't need to stagger a phantom in order to kill it .

Dunvi is talking about gold and plat stagger thresholds.

You might not be familiar with them.

So on higher difficulties (gold, platinum), Hydras are somehow able to more easily stagger boss units more easily than Cobras, whereas on lower difficulties they don't? I am confuzzled .

[HolyAvenger]

Felis Menari wrote...

HolyAvenger wrote...

Felis Menari wrote...

Dunvi wrote...

Just ran some numbers really quickly. It's nearly impossible for the HML to ever stagger even a phantom on gold - it can only hit that magic 1000N if you take HML evolution 2 (rank 4 force & damage evolution), hydra missiles, and all 3 missiles land at the same time. Max force of a cobra is 650N.

Conclusion? The things are abso-freaking-lutely useless. Spec for multi-frags and you can stagger phantoms without any f&d evolutions. Take just 1 of the f&d evolutions or take both passive power evolutions and you can stagger bosses on gold. In fact, you can break the platinum boss stagger threshold (2000N) ridiculously easy, something most of the vanguards can't do (there's a reason the drellguard is one of the better vanguards on platinum).

Hydras aren't as good at staggering boss units as Cobras, despite what the difference in numbers may lead you to believe. And you don't need to stagger a phantom in order to kill it .

Dunvi is talking about gold and plat stagger thresholds.

You might not be familiar with them.

So on higher difficulties (gold, platinum), Hydras are somehow able to more easily stagger boss units more easily than Cobras, whereas on lower difficulties they don't? I am confuzzled .

Yes, you are. Dunvi is saying Cobras NEVER stagger bosses, and Hydras will only do so very, very rarely thanks to the force thresholds needed. On lower difficulties that may change (I dunno, haven't played bronze or silver in months now).

[Dunvi]

Felis Menari wrote...

Dunvi wrote...

Just ran some numbers really quickly. It's nearly impossible for the HML to ever stagger even a phantom on gold - it can only hit that magic 1000N if you take HML evolution 2 (rank 4 force & damage evolution), hydra missiles, and all 3 missiles land at the same time. Max force of a cobra is 650N.

Conclusion? The things are abso-freaking-lutely useless. Spec for multi-frags and you can stagger phantoms without any f&d evolutions. Take just 1 of the f&d evolutions or take both passive power evolutions and you can stagger bosses on gold. In fact, you can break the platinum boss stagger threshold (2000N) ridiculously easy, something most of the vanguards can't do (there's a reason the drellguard is one of the better vanguards on platinum).

Hydras aren't as good at staggering boss units as Cobras, despite what the difference in numbers may lead you to believe. And you don't need to stagger a phantom in order to kill it .

Uh, NEITHER hydras NOR cobras are even capable of staggering boss units, which is the point. Direct damage from powers is flat out worthless on gold and platinum, I can't think of a single one that is actually worth using. *

Look, I'm not saying you need to stagger a phantom to kill it. However, it is usually well recommended: it breaks her DR (especially important to the poor host), and it protects against sync kills. Furthermore, if you are going to bother with a power that is for stagger, you might as well worry about staggering a phantom because 1000N isn't a hard threshold to break if you take some care. If you can't stagger a phantom with it, I really struggle to see why you're bothering to stagger at all, all other enemies you might as well just kill with a good shot.

* still pondering what exactly tics me off about the phoenixes, but it's probably because smash has only a crappy dot evolution, crappy priming evolutions, isn't a very good detonator, and requires either both passive power evolutions or charge's power synergy (not an option for the adept) to stagger a phantom.

Modifié par Dunvi, 05 février 2013 - 12:03 .

[HolyAvenger]

stysiaq wrote...


If the Missle Launcher was controllable (it could be an active power) it would be a lot better. In this state, I wouldn't use it.

QFT.

[stysiaq]

Felis Menari wrote...

So on higher difficulties (gold, platinum), Hydras are somehow able to more easily stagger boss units more easily than Cobras, whereas on lower difficulties they don't? I am confuzzled .

The higher difficulty, the higher force treshold required. There's a spreadsheet somewhere.

The "magic" number is usually 1000 N (it's really not that much in real world though). It's the force required to stagger a Phantom on gold (and platinum), provided they don't use their bubble, letting you tank the Phantoms or easily kill them.

That's why the Havoc Strike got that buff. Now you can have 1000N on it and take the weapon damage passives.

[Felis Menari]

HolyAvenger wrote...

Felis Menari wrote...

HolyAvenger wrote...

Felis Menari wrote...

Dunvi wrote...

Just ran some numbers really quickly. It's nearly impossible for the HML to ever stagger even a phantom on gold - it can only hit that magic 1000N if you take HML evolution 2 (rank 4 force & damage evolution), hydra missiles, and all 3 missiles land at the same time. Max force of a cobra is 650N.

Conclusion? The things are abso-freaking-lutely useless. Spec for multi-frags and you can stagger phantoms without any f&d evolutions. Take just 1 of the f&d evolutions or take both passive power evolutions and you can stagger bosses on gold. In fact, you can break the platinum boss stagger threshold (2000N) ridiculously easy, something most of the vanguards can't do (there's a reason the drellguard is one of the better vanguards on platinum).

Hydras aren't as good at staggering boss units as Cobras, despite what the difference in numbers may lead you to believe. And you don't need to stagger a phantom in order to kill it .

Dunvi is talking about gold and plat stagger thresholds.

You might not be familiar with them.

So on higher difficulties (gold, platinum), Hydras are somehow able to more easily stagger boss units more easily than Cobras, whereas on lower difficulties they don't? I am confuzzled .

Yes, you are. Dunvi is saying Cobras NEVER stagger bosses, and Hydras will only do so very, very rarely thanks to the force thresholds needed. On lower difficulties that may change (I dunno, haven't played bronze or silver in months now).

Ah. The last time I tested it was before the HML buff. Back then it took three Cobra missiles in order to stagger a boss on silver. It might only take two now. Cobras will never stagger a boss in a single missile, but they will allow you to stagger bosses on a regular basis (below gold, at least). If I had some reset powers cards I'd consider testing out the Cobra evo, but I'm out. Not going to buy any packs until the DLC hits, so it may be a while before I get around to figuring things out for myself.

[BronzTrooper]

Silvair wrote...

So NOBODY likes the extra damage and force of the Cobra?

I like going with Cobra on rank 6.  I just promoted my soldiers so I'm going off of my memory of my build.  Here it is:


Devastator Mode: Weapon Accuracy, Magazine size, Max Shields

Hawk Missile Launcher: Shield Penalty, Refire Time, Cobra Missiles

Multi-Frag Grenade: Force & Damage, Force & Damage, Force & Damage

T5-V Battlesuit: Weapon Damage

T5-V Internal Systems: Durability



I'm thinking about this build though:

Devastator Mode: Weapon Accuracy, Rate of Fire, Max Shields

Hawk Missile Launcher: Shield Penalty, Armor Damage, Cobra Missiles

Multi-Frag Grenade: Force & Damage, Max Grenades, Grenade Count

T5-V Battlesuit: none

T5-V Internal Systems: Durability, Shield Recharge, Fitness Expert

I'll let you know how I do with this build when I set it up.

[Dunvi]

HolyAvenger wrote...

Felis Menari wrote...

HolyAvenger wrote...

Felis Menari wrote...

Dunvi wrote...

Just ran some numbers really quickly. It's nearly impossible for the HML to ever stagger even a phantom on gold - it can only hit that magic 1000N if you take HML evolution 2 (rank 4 force & damage evolution), hydra missiles, and all 3 missiles land at the same time. Max force of a cobra is 650N.

Conclusion? The things are abso-freaking-lutely useless. Spec for multi-frags and you can stagger phantoms without any f&d evolutions. Take just 1 of the f&d evolutions or take both passive power evolutions and you can stagger bosses on gold. In fact, you can break the platinum boss stagger threshold (2000N) ridiculously easy, something most of the vanguards can't do (there's a reason the drellguard is one of the better vanguards on platinum).

Hydras aren't as good at staggering boss units as Cobras, despite what the difference in numbers may lead you to believe. And you don't need to stagger a phantom in order to kill it .

Dunvi is talking about gold and plat stagger thresholds.

You might not be familiar with them.

So on higher difficulties (gold, platinum), Hydras are somehow able to more easily stagger boss units more easily than Cobras, whereas on lower difficulties they don't? I am confuzzled .

Yes, you are. Dunvi is saying Cobras NEVER stagger bosses, and Hydras will only do so very, very rarely thanks to the force thresholds needed. On lower difficulties that may change (I dunno, haven't played bronze or silver in months now).

Force thresholds are significantly lower on lower difficulties. I think it's < 500N for a bronze phantom. Cobra missile evolution can easily hit that, hydras still need at least 2 to hit at the same time.

Wow, I'm really convincing myself the thing is useless. I swear, I'm not going to get a second power I have no intention of ever using buffed... *still hasn't even tried the buffed havoc strike... after being the one to get it buffed... *

[Felis Menari]

Dunvi wrote...

Felis Menari wrote...

Dunvi wrote...

Just ran some numbers really quickly. It's nearly impossible for the HML to ever stagger even a phantom on gold - it can only hit that magic 1000N if you take HML evolution 2 (rank 4 force & damage evolution), hydra missiles, and all 3 missiles land at the same time. Max force of a cobra is 650N.

Conclusion? The things are abso-freaking-lutely useless. Spec for multi-frags and you can stagger phantoms without any f&d evolutions. Take just 1 of the f&d evolutions or take both passive power evolutions and you can stagger bosses on gold. In fact, you can break the platinum boss stagger threshold (2000N) ridiculously easy, something most of the vanguards can't do (there's a reason the drellguard is one of the better vanguards on platinum).

Hydras aren't as good at staggering boss units as Cobras, despite what the difference in numbers may lead you to believe. And you don't need to stagger a phantom in order to kill it .

Uh, NEITHER hydras NOR cobras are even capable of staggering boss units, which is the point. Direct damage from powers is flat out worthless on gold and platinum, I can't think of a single one that is actually worth using. *

Look, I'm not saying you need to stagger a phantom to kill it. However, it is usually well recommended: it breaks her DR (especially important to the poor host), and it protects against sync kills. Furthermore, if you are going to bother with a power that is for stagger, you might as well worry about staggering a phantom because 1000N isn't a hard threshold to break if you take some care. If you can't stagger a phantom with it, I really struggle to see why you're bothering to stagger at all, all other enemies you might as well just kill with a good shot.

* still pondering what exactly tics me off about the phoenixes, but it's probably because smash has only a crappy dot evolution, crappy priming evolutions, isn't a very good detonator, and requires either both passive power evolutions or charge's power synergy (not an option for the adept) to stagger a phantom.

I see. You're hung up on the lack of hard boss staggering. Cobras may help with that, but the Hydras are meant to stagger mooks, and it does that wonderfully if spec'd right (they also do decent damage). With my spec all non-boss units on gold are staggered by the missiles. Been too long since I last played platinum to say anything about that difficulty.

Modifié par Felis Menari, 05 février 2013 - 12:15 .

[Dunvi]

Felis Menari wrote...

Ah. The last time I tested it was before the HML buff. Back then it took three Cobra missiles in order to stagger a boss on silver. It might only take two now. Cobras will never stagger a boss in a single missile, but they will allow you to stagger bosses on a regular basis (below gold, at least). If I had some reset powers cards I'd consider testing out the Cobra evo, but I'm out. Not going to buy any packs until the DLC hits, so it may be a while before I get around to figuring things out for myself.

ETA: I found the Cyonan post I was looking for. It's "worse" than I recalled. Damage and force never stack up to a hit reaction, either you deal that much force in a single instant, or you are relying on the hit-reaction chance.

So those 3 cobras are doing the same job you could have done with a good, hard hitting weapon with a high hit-reaction chance.

Or better yet, throw a MFG and undisputably hit the stagger threshold.

Yeah, my conclusion at this point is definitely don't-bother for HML. Which is still a moot-point because I have no intention of ever playing the guy ever again in my life.

Modifié par Dunvi, 05 février 2013 - 12:22 .

[Feneckus]

stysiaq wrote...

To be honest, triggering Praetorians bubble isnt THAT tragic.

Yes it is. Inferno Grenades, Smash or Flamer are great anti-armor powers that you won't be able to use. Or what about a Warp + Claymore with Warp Rounds IV + Cluster Grenades combo ? Can't do that because of the stupid destroyer so you end up doing pathetic damage instead of obliterating the Praetorian.

What if he lands, I throw 4 inferno grenades, which means he's already dead, he gets back up and the Destroyer makes it use its bubble ?

And all this time wasted for what ? So the Destroyer can stagger troopers ? Sorry, it's not even close to being a good reason for ruining the entire team's DPS ...

[Felis Menari]

Dunvi wrote...

Felis Menari wrote...

Ah. The last time I tested it was before the HML buff. Back then it took three Cobra missiles in order to stagger a boss on silver. It might only take two now. Cobras will never stagger a boss in a single missile, but they will allow you to stagger bosses on a regular basis (below gold, at least). If I had some reset powers cards I'd consider testing out the Cobra evo, but I'm out. Not going to buy any packs until the DLC hits, so it may be a while before I get around to figuring things out for myself.

It's worth pointing out that I'm fairly certain force dealt doesn't stack up. When those 3 cobras get the boss to stagger, it's because you hit the damage taken threshold that consistently gets them to stagger, usually estimatible as when you break their shields/barriers (depending on how long it takes you to do this, said enemy might not stagger at all, so it's definitely more complicated than that).

The point is, when you staggered said boss, it wasn't because you hit it with 3 cobras, it was because you hit it with enough damage overall in a short enough period of time.

And the same could have been done in a single second with a single multi-frag grenade.

Regarding the boss staggering mechanics, I'll do a quick search and see if I can figure out where my thoughts are coming from, but no promises; it's past 4am and I have a 9:30am class. If someone recognizes what I'm trying to remember, feel free to jump in and correct me.

I'm almost completely certain that Hydras cannot stagger as well as Cobras can, despite the difference in damage output. Gonna fire up a silver match and hopefully I can get a boss to myself for just a bit. If it takes three or more salvos in order to stagger a boss on silver, then the stagger mechanics are more complicated than even you believe. Not trying to say you're an idiot or anything. I'm genuinely curious at this point. I want to figure this **** out.

Edit: Would like to point out that the armor damage evo for the HML doesn't help at all with staggering enemies. This I tested myself a while back. Just throwing that out there before diving into a game.

Modifié par Felis Menari, 05 février 2013 - 12:25 .

[Dracian]

Late for the party, but here's my contribution (Very Platinum viable, used him again this morning)

And I don't care if people say Hawk missiles are sh!t, they're too damn useful to skip it.

[Dunvi]

Felis Menari wrote...

I'm almost completely certain that Hydras cannot stagger as well as Cobras can, despite the difference in damage output. Gonna fire up a silver match and hopefully I can get a boss to myself for just a bit. If it takes three or more salvos in order to stagger a boss on silver, then the stagger mechanics are more complicated than even you believe. Not trying to say you're an idiot or anything. I'm genuinely curious at this point. I want to figure this **** out.

The stuff below is copied from my previous post, the one you quoted. I edited it because I found the information I was looking for, and my previous post was quite incorrect.

I found the Cyonan post I was looking for. It's "worse" than I recalled. Damage and force never stack up to a hit reaction, either you deal that much force in a single instant, or you are relying on the hit-reaction chance.

So those 3 cobras are doing the same job you could have done with a good, hard hitting weapon with a high hit-reaction chance.

Or better yet, throw a MFG and undisputably hit the stagger threshold.

Yeah, my conclusion at this point is definitely don't-bother for HML. Which is still a moot-point because I have no intention of ever playing the guy ever again in my life.

(And you're correct, hydras cannot stagger as well as cobras can. If multiple hydras hit in the exact same frame, then the force dealt is better, but the chance of that is effectively nil. No need to test that!)

Modifié par Dunvi, 05 février 2013 - 12:28 .