217 réponses à ce sujet

[David7204]

It's not horrendous, but ultimately not good enough.

First of all, it's plain boring. We've had Jacob talk about what a mistake it was to work for Cerberus. We've had Kelly talk about what a mistake it was to work for Cerberus. We've had Shepard talk about what a mistake it was to work for Cerberus. We've had a bunch of scientists talk about what a mistake it was to work for Cerberus. On that alone, I would be hesitant to have yet another character discuss how bad Cerberus is.

But whereas Jacob and Shepard both express reservations for working with Cerberus and Kelly is naive enough to not really know better, Miranda fully defends them. I don't see Miranda harboring any regret for working with them, and this just comes off as derailment to me. She wasn't a grunt. If bad things happened, it was likely because she personally decided to have them happen.

This also comes across as a resolution without any kind of build-up or conflict to resolve in the first place. Part of the reason why LotSB was so excellent was that it had an outstanding resolution to the tension between Liara and Shepard through the mission and on Illium.

In any case, I seem to recall you making comments about how great Cerberus is and how stupid the Alliance is. And yet you're with this?

[Caihn]

StayFrosty05 wrote...

MattFini wrote...

Lucas1987Dion wrote...

And I'm still (from very beginning) surprised that Miranda is not in the ME3 squad...

Me too. I never gave it a second thought. 

Not until a few days before the game came out and I found out the underwhelming squad selection. 

But the question is, why would a pro Alliance Shep allow Miranda on board as a Squad member?....Mine doesn't even have her loyalty (sided with Jack).

Your decision.
Personally if my Shepard was pro Alliance, she would be on the Normandy too. In any case she isn't working for Cerberus anymore (her resignation has nothing to do with her loyalty to Shepard) and she's more useful fighting Cerberus and the Reapers with Shepard than searching her sister (and she could even continue to search her sister while she's on board).

Modifié par Yannkee, 07 février 2013 - 06:52 .

[Degs29]

StayFrosty05 wrote...
....or Miranda should takes tIM's place...

After playing ME2, I literally thought that was where she was going to be in ME3.  She's highly intelligent and a capable leader.  She betrayed TIM and obviously he's not going to like that, so the story arc is there.  Obviously, they couldn't have gone the direction they did with Cerberus if Miranda took over and I think that is the ONLY reason Miranda didn't end up taking over for TIM.  Instead, we got a rehash of Miranda's ME2 story arc....

StayFrosty05 wrote...
....or Miranda should be the SB...

Well, after playing ME1, would you have thought Liara had the characteristics to be the shadow broker?  I didn't.  Miranda is much more suited to the task, for the same reasons she could have taken over for TIM.  Obviously, the timelines wouldn't quite match up for this to be possible during ME2, and I'm not as disappointed by that as I was by Miranda's dismal ME3 showing.

[Ieldra]

David7204 wrote...
But whereas Jacob and Shepard both express reservations for working with Cerberus and Kelly is naive enough to not really know better, Miranda fully defends them. I don't see Miranda harboring any regret for working with them, and this just comes off as derailment to me. She wasn't a grunt. If bad things happened, it was likely because she personally decided to have them happen.

Perhaps I was too subtle for you? If you haven't noticed, in my dialogue she doesn't regret having worked with Cerberus. Instead, she explains what Cerberus meant to her and that she thinks TIM has betrayed its original vision, the one expressed in the manifest, which was more about exploring the unknown in order to benefit humanity (quote: "we will seek out the dark places and bring illumination....for the betterment of humankind") than human dominance using mind-controlled troops. I'm sure she was responsible for some bad stuff, but whatever she might think of that, *now* Cerberus is indefensible. It's impossible and out of character to make her defend present-day Cerberus, but it's quite in-character for her to defend that original vision and leave the option open to continue it, which I make her do.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 07 février 2013 - 08:31 .

[Atekimagus]

Be that as it may, during raiding the cerberus base, chasing after her father, she should have been a permanent squadmate for the duration, slowly discovering all the horrors she unwittingly helped, giving feedback to Shepard when his/her resurrection is discussed and slowly falling apart because her whole belief-system is more profoundly shattered than she'd expected, even if she showed TIM the middle finger in ME2.

Lot's of missed dialoge her, lot's of missed character development here and lot's of missed choices a Shepard could have made to either destroy her completely or build her up again making her even more loyal.

As it is, it would have been better they left her out completely and made a Cerberus-centric DLC with her. (Jesus...and that considering I am against the whole DLC business in general)

[Milotic12]

I think you can attribute many of the arguments over characters story etc to the fact that Shepard is so personal.

People on here saying 'Miranda shouldnt come back because MY Shepard is Pro Alliance and didn't get her loyalty'. We all have a different Shepard, my Shepard got through Miranda's hard exterior and fell in love with her. Someone else's Shepard ignored Miranda completely and focused on Jack.

To me its why ME3 failed, there was no way Bioware could ever make a conclusion to the story of everyone's Shepard. They had to make a game for the majority, which is why Liara, Garrus and Tali were given a free pass. They really did muck up with EDI and Vega though, i'm not sure anyone wanted that!?

[Ieldra]

Milotic12 wrote...
I think you can attribute many of the arguments over characters story etc to the fact that Shepard is so personal.

People on here saying 'Miranda shouldnt come back because MY Shepard is Pro Alliance and didn't get her loyalty'. We all have a different Shepard, my Shepard got through Miranda's hard exterior and fell in love with her. Someone else's Shepard ignored Miranda completely and focused on Jack.

They already accommodated a possible character absence by creating replacement characters or making the scenes work without them if necessary. We also have a choice about keeping Ashley or Kaidan on the team or giving them to Hackett. It wouldn't have been a great problem to give us a choice about keeping Miranda on the team after Sanctuary. 

To me its why ME3 failed, there was no way Bioware could ever make a conclusion to the story of everyone's Shepard. They had to make a game for the majority, which is why Liara, Garrus and Tali were given a free pass. They really did muck up with EDI and Vega though, i'm not sure anyone wanted that!?

I like EDI, but she was more interesting being the ship. Giving her a humanoid body just underscored the theme "life isn't valid if it it's not like humans". To say nothing of making her a sex bot. And a relationship between her and Joker would've worked far better if Joker was required to enter a virtual reality. There are no physical hindrances to sex there, on neither side. I could've suspended my disbelief for that. As it was.....ugh....

[Chiantirose1982]

I don't understand the whole anti- Cerberus deal. I mean if Shepard really would be feeling that strongly against them, then the only crew should be one of the VS ,Vega, Steve, Traynor, Engineer Adams, Javik and those other random Alliance personel, since those are the only once that didn't join Cerberus. (I know, i know ... if Shepard wouldn't have joined; the Collectors would have killed more humans and finished building the baby reaper ... I'm just saying) <_< Everyone else had some interaction with Cerberus, even Liara dealt with them when handing over Sheps body.

Shepard trusts Jacob and he defended Cerberus, saying that they are the only ones investigating the abductions in ME2. Ken and Gabby are very supportive of them, bragging how they ditched the Alliance when they spoke bad about Shepard. Just as examples.

Shep also trusts some total strange scientists enough to send them to Hackett to work on the Crucible.

If I remember ME2 ending, doesn't Miranda have serious doubts about Cerberus, if you destroy the Collector Base? So you could assume that she would leave in the future.

I'm not a big fan of Miranda, but I was somewhat surprised of the small impact she had. I was expecting her to join my team on Cronos, at least temporarily. Would have loved some Miri and Kaidan chatter

[Terraforming2154]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Milotic12 wrote...
I think you can attribute many of the arguments over characters story etc to the fact that Shepard is so personal.

People on here saying 'Miranda shouldnt come back because MY Shepard is Pro Alliance and didn't get her loyalty'. We all have a different Shepard, my Shepard got through Miranda's hard exterior and fell in love with her. Someone else's Shepard ignored Miranda completely and focused on Jack.

They already accommodated a possible character absence by creating replacement characters or making the scenes work without them if necessary. We also have a choice about keeping Ashley or Kaidan on the team or giving them to Hackett. It wouldn't have been a great problem to give us a choice about keeping Miranda on the team after Sanctuary. 

To me its why ME3 failed, there was no way Bioware could ever make a conclusion to the story of everyone's Shepard. They had to make a game for the majority, which is why Liara, Garrus and Tali were given a free pass. They really did muck up with EDI and Vega though, i'm not sure anyone wanted that!?

I like EDI, but she was more interesting being the ship. Giving her a humanoid body just underscored the theme "life isn't valid if it it's not like humans". To say nothing of making her a sex bot. And a relationship between her and Joker would've worked far better if Joker was required to enter a virtual reality. There are no physical hindrances to sex there, on neither side. I could've suspended my disbelief for that. As it was.....ugh....

Agreed, Ieldra -- EDI was significantly more interesting as the ship.  I also think the story between Joker and EDI could have been a compelling one, but they went the standard (and decidedly easy) route of making EDI equivalent to a metal human, though a slightly naiive one.

To address the topic of the thread in general, Bioware should have held back on the free for all deaths until ME3 and thought more about how ME2 characters could impact the story in ME3. I understand the fall-back excuse that Miranda and other ME2 characters couldn't have a significant role because they could die in ME2 (though that didn't stop Garrus and Tali getting storylines), but it still annoys me. If they had planned ahead about Cerberus taking the lead as villains in ME3, because that is exactly what happened, Miranda should have made a lot of sense as a squadmate.

Instead of being stuck with Vega and EDI as backup squadmates in case you killed off everyone in Suicide Mission,  we might have been able to finish the game out with a team of well-rounded characters from ME1 & ME2.

Now we are just stuck, permenantly it seems, with weak cameos for all the characters in ME2. Which is just a waste.

[v TricKy v]

pirate1802 wrote...

Yuqi wrote...

What it really, and ultimately, boils down too, is this:

Damn.. those ass shots have reached a point of being embarressing now. Whoever came up with the idea that she needed frequent ass shots should be kept as far from future ME content as possible.

Also lol @ investigate xD

That's one my biggest complains right there. I was really happy in ME1 when it depicted women namely femshep and Ashley as effecient and good soldiers and not as pin up cover girls.
But then ME2 and Miranda came out...
Suspension of disbelief was shatterd there because running around in firefight without armor but a catsuit and high heels.
Yeah right

[thehomeworld]

I'm not a fan of Miranda at all but there was nothing baring her from being on the Normandy for players who wanted to recruit her the whole, " I'm chasing my sister down," could've also been done in conjunction with Liara who is the SB put her skills to some use. Especially after to rescue Oriana you could've had a convince option then to have her join up now that she solved her crisis.

In the original script of the game Miranda already was on the ship so BW just took her out they should've made her a convincible optional crewmen who could've filled VS and or Javik's slot on the team.

People stating she should've been on crono's station is a valid point more so then EDI Miranda knows the layout of the station in main areas maps wouldn't be required and she could guide the player to where they need to be instead of us guessing where to go. She knows the likely routes to get to TIM and how he would evac so while you take on ninja boy she's left to hunt down TIM it her survival depends on weather you defeat ninja boy within a set time (that won't show onscreen) take too long and she'll die TIM escapes and makes it to the citadel, if you're fast TIM dies doesn't meet you on the Citadel

and Miranda depending on your para/ren influence over ME2 and ME3 with her she will for more para players insist cronos is destroyed and info on their projects backup to EDI however if you ren her she insists she'll take over she'll give you a backup of one of three items you can pick the LP if full readable form so players get a 100% account of the magic behind shep's revival, sanctuary files full details what did they learn from that? counter measures and recipes on how to make your own husks how to make an indoctrination device and how to shield yourself from it all that can be applied via shep's say so for the game, super soldiers these files allow you to upgrade to be stronger, faster, take/give more damage, or refuse any backups.

The upgrades you pick with ren Miranda may also influence your game obviously if you choose the super souldier perk your team is stronger, faster, and can give/take more damage, if you pick sanctuary files and tell Hackett we will be employing what they learned to fight the reapers your own Alliance husks made from the countless dead from reaper attacks will be used on the battle field you will have your own husks on the maps fighting off the hordes until they die, if you picked the sanctuary option but told Hackett we won't employ the tactics then you get a reaper signal jammer that will temporarily throw the hordes into chaos so they go after one another this however will need to recharge.

While Miranda is one of the crewmen from ME2 that don't have a good reason not to be on ship she's only one of several who share this trait Samura, Jacob, Kasumi, Jack, Grunt, Legion, and Mordin all have the samething a thin excuse to not show on ship any of these people could've filled the VS cabin or Javik if you don't take them.

Other npcs also could've joined your crew as new members they have no real excuse either for just staying in place:

Athena once you reconcile her and Liara's lives she should be conceivable,

Kal Reegor goes with Tali when she is both on board for admiral representation and after Rannoch, if Tali isn't an Admiral you get one visit to the flotilla because the board wants to thank you personally and there you can convince Kal to join with you and Tali on the ship if you can't convince him or you don't bother to try he'll die on Palvin,

The Juggernaut is a bonus character available to players who made peace and if you have super high score you can convince him to join you obviously he'll live in the shuttle bay with Vega but he will still the vacancy of VS and Javik

You can also convince the replacements of the dead ME2 crewmen like Xen replaces Tali, ect

[SilentK]

It would have been an interesting option to bring Miranda to Cronos station. She is not one of my favorites but it would have been fun to have the opportunity to bring her there. And in case she was dead on that PT you had EDI for back-up. Was a little disappointed that she was hunting for her sister again in ME3. Thought that she had already done that in ME2 and was hoping for something new for her. Like I said, she is not my favorite so I do not miss her on the squad, but this was not what I expected for her in ME3. Oh well.

[humes spork]

I'm not even a Miranda fan, my opinion of her as a character being gently apathetic only on the quality of Strahovski's voice acting, and I think there's no justifiable reason for her to not have been a squad mate in ME3, starting no later than Cronos Station. By all rights, if she was made loyal and Shepard destroyed the Collector base in ME2 she should have been recruitable on the spot the first time you met her on the Citadel. Of all the ME2 squadmates, she's the one who hadn't moved on and gotten a life of her own she couldn't just drop on a whim to join Shepard. She's still facing the immediate consequences of betraying Cerberus, having been a member of Cerberus in the first place, and her own family issues.

The reason she doesn't join in ME3, as she herself cites, is her own secretive nature and unwillingness to confide in and lean on others, even Shepard. Her loyalty mission in ME2 is all about overcoming her own secretive nature and learning to confide in and lean on others, especially Shepard. It makes little to no sense, and invalidates her character development in ME2, that she doesn't. In fact, the very reason she ends up screwed over or dead on Sanctuary is because she doesn't.

It's nonsensical. Especially in light the reason EDI is a necessary squadmate on Cronos Station is because of her hacking ability and knowledge of Cerberus security systems and protocol...two things with which Miranda also has a high level of expertise, having been a high level Cerberus operative who spent quite a bit of time at Cronos Station herself. EDI does nothing on Cronos Station Miranda could not have done, and for that reason the two characters would have been perfectly interchangeable.

Modifié par humes spork, 07 février 2013 - 07:50 .

[kavox]

The reason she should be on Cronos, IMO, is a combination of her deserting Cerberus and her hatred for her father. She realized what cerberus was doing was not only wrong, it was down right evil, and her father was right in the middle of it. Cerberus funded the operation where her father worked and kidnapped her sister ie emotional tie-in. As for actually being ON Cronos station, she knew where it was since at least the beginning of ME2. She should want face time with the man who manipulated her and so many others instead of just being a number on screen(dam war assets).

[MrStrider75]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Milotic12 wrote...
I think you can attribute many of the arguments over characters story etc to the fact that Shepard is so personal.

People on here saying 'Miranda shouldnt come back because MY Shepard is Pro Alliance and didn't get her loyalty'. We all have a different Shepard, my Shepard got through Miranda's hard exterior and fell in love with her. Someone else's Shepard ignored Miranda completely and focused on Jack.

They already accommodated a possible character absence by creating replacement characters or making the scenes work without them if necessary. We also have a choice about keeping Ashley or Kaidan on the team or giving them to Hackett. It wouldn't have been a great problem to give us a choice about keeping Miranda on the team after Sanctuary. 

To me its why ME3 failed, there was no way Bioware could ever make a conclusion to the story of everyone's Shepard. They had to make a game for the majority, which is why Liara, Garrus and Tali were given a free pass. They really did muck up with EDI and Vega though, i'm not sure anyone wanted that!?

I like EDI, but she was more interesting being the ship. Giving her a humanoid body just underscored the theme "life isn't valid if it it's not like humans". To say nothing of making her a sex bot. And a relationship between her and Joker would've worked far better if Joker was required to enter a virtual reality. There are no physical hindrances to sex there, on neither side. I could've suspended my disbelief for that. As it was.....ugh....

This is a great solution
and exactly what I think should have been done to accommodate Miranda being on
the Normandy for at least the final third
of the game.  A choice to bring on either
Ashley or Miranda would have been an elegant answer. The character of your
choice lives in the observation deck where Ash already hangs out and it allows
for a true romance consummation scene with either one, as one of the alternatives
to Liara, not to mention gives your Shepard the opportunity to bring Miranda on
the beam run and have the extra little goodbye scene with her if she was your
LI.

I get why Bioware committed to Liara’s status as the SB for
the permanent presence in Miranda’s old office (even though her role as SB
doesn’t seem to provide any real actionable intel of use), but the degree to
which they pushed Liara as the end-all, be-all LI for Shepard sharply contradicts
the elements of choice that are
supposed to be so ingrained in the game. 
And I say this as a player who historically chose the Liara romance arc
the majority of the time. 

Nevertheless, I eventually warmed more to the significance
of Shepard and Miranda’s relationship. 
To me, she just needs my
Shepard more than the others and benefits the most from their time
together.  Liara confirms as much at the
end of LOTSB if you stay true to Miranda, stating how much Shepard’s affected Miranda
and softened her hard exterior.  It’s a poignant
conversation and what ultimately sealed the deal for me on Miranda as my male
Shepard’s canon LI. 

On the other hand, Liara will be just fine without Shepard.
Heck, she has to be—she’s going to live about 800 years longer than he is!  And Ashely, well, she’s got Jesus…:innocent: 

[PMC65]

There was no reason for Miranda to be riding around the galaxy with Shepard as (s)he tries to bring the races together. But I also wished that Liara, Garrus and Tali were not brought onboard as well. Each of the non-Alliance characters should have moved in and out of the story depending on where they fit best.

It would have been cool to have had the shadow broker's base as a place to visit ... Liara working on intel and managing her resources there. Seeing Garrus on Palaven leading his people against the reapers. Miranda working on Illium with her contacts and eventually sending you the coordinates of his base ... Miranda could have landed there before Shepard and sabotaged the defenses allowing Shepard to land and then become a temporary teammate on that mission. That is what I wished had happened but alas ...

Liara was not a teammate on the Normandy in ME2 but with LotSB and that one mission she was a highlight (for me) in that game ... that is what I was hoping for. Each character would receive missions that helped close out their characters that were fitting to them. But many people feel that if their character had been onboard the golden calf (Normandy) then more time equals quality. Not true. Ashley is a perfect example of that ... she turned into a Zaeed 2.0.  

But that is my opinion and I know that others would disagree with it. Whatever each of us wanted is really moot now that the game is complete ... the shadow broker ship was blown up, Miranda was not on Cronos, my Shepard lies beneath rubble. *sigh*

[MrStrider75]

PMC65 wrote...

Liara was not a teammate on the Normandy in ME2 but with LotSB and that one mission she was a highlight (for me) in that game ... that is what I was hoping for. Each character would receive missions that helped close out their characters that were fitting to them. But many people feel that if their character had been onboard the golden calf (Normandy) then more time equals quality. Not true. Ashley is a perfect example of that ... she turned into a Zaeed 2.0.  

But that is my opinion and I know that others would disagree with it. Whatever each of us wanted is really moot now that the game is complete ... the shadow broker ship was blown up, Miranda was not on Cronos, my Shepard lies beneath rubble. *sigh*

So true… it was really a bit jarring that after the effort
the writers clearly put into resurrecting Ashley’s contentious relationship with
Shepard at the beginning of the game, through the early dialogs and during the Citadel coup
attempt, once onboard the Normandy she’s relegated to an ambient dialog
character.  More evidence that after all
the talk of freedom of choice in the series, BW ultimately guides you down the
path to the most well developed and thought out relationship with Liara. And I like
Liara! But contrasting the richness of your relationship with her to the others
makes all the alternatives seem somewhat hollow.

And yes, at this point, all this discussion about what we
would have liked to have seen is rather futile. 
For me, this board is simply a form of catharsis.  My Shepard too lies buried under a pile of
rubble, seemingly waiting for his committed and loyal squad mates to come dig
him out and finish the fight…or live out his life with my LI of choice…or at least
see his core companions get a freakin’ slide in the EC montage! *double sigh*

[Ieldra]

@MrStrider:
I think the convenient narrative reason for keeping Miranda away from the Normandy is that she had been Cerberus and the Alliance people don't trust her. I can accept that though she proves that she's on Shepard's side on Sanctuary. However, there is no excuse at all to keep her away from Cronos Station, and every reason to make her appear there.

[MrStrider75]

@Ieldra2:
Totally agree. I get the argument to keep her off the Normandy due to Cerberus history (tho, seems like the Alliance peeps should have had a harder time excepting a Geth being on board for a time). But definitely no reason to exclude her from Cronos and then have her and Oriana on board heading back to earth.

[Cainhurst Crow]

David7204 wrote...

Well, for the Normandy, that's pretty much it. People want her because they like her. Which is perfectly valid. I want Liara and Garrus and Tali on the Normandy, even if they don't have a direct role in the story. (Which again, is perfectly good and acceptable writing.)

As for Cronos...that's just people struggling to come up with some kind of arc for her and people assuming that her being on such a mission will automatically mean satisfying character interaction and development. (It doesn't, and won't.) The most common idea is basically Miranda having a big emotional breakdown over working with Cerberus. Or something of the sort. Awful idea. Same with Miranda taking over for the Illusive Man.

That sounds beyond out of character for her.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Two people Shepard cannot hate in the story are Liara and Miranda. Shepard owes both of them her life. Without Liara she would not be alive; she'd have been in that human reaper. Without Miranda she would not be alive, period. You players may hate them, but get real.

Shepard's a spectre. If Shepard wants Miranda on board, doesn't Shepard's command override the ninnies who didn't prepare and whined "what do we do now?" They didn't even replace the 8 frigates lost in the Battle of the Citadel over a period of 3 years. 9 if you include the Normandy. Good thing Shepard hijacked that ship from Cerberus. Think about flying around the galaxy in ME3 in a stolen shuttle! Now that would have been fun.

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 08 février 2013 - 08:23 .

[o Ventus]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

That sounds beyond out of character for her.

Errm, how?

[David7204]

Why would Miranda regret working for Cerberus?

[Ieldra]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

David7204 wrote...
Well, for the Normandy, that's pretty much it. People want her because they like her. Which is perfectly valid. I want Liara and Garrus and Tali on the Normandy, even if they don't have a direct role in the story. (Which again, is perfectly good and acceptable writing.)

As for Cronos...that's just people struggling to come up with some kind of arc for her and people assuming that her being on such a mission will automatically mean satisfying character interaction and development. (It doesn't, and won't.) The most common idea is basically Miranda having a big emotional breakdown over working with Cerberus. Or something of the sort. Awful idea. Same with Miranda taking over for the Illusive Man.

That sounds beyond out of character for her.

Indeed it would be. And David7204 is misrepresenting our ideas about how Miranda should've appeared on Cronos so hard that it isn't even funny. Read the dialogue I proposed in this post.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 08 février 2013 - 09:05 .

[fiendishchicken]

o Ventus wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

That sounds beyond out of character for her.

Errm, how?

Miranda is knows what she did for Cerberus and is proud of it. She doesn't believe in what Cerberus has become.

Her issue would not be an emotional breakdown repenting that she had done wrong all her years at Cerberus.

Her issue would be wondering how and where Cerberus started to go off track and why. What made the organization she dedicated a significant portion of her life too become an organization that is, beneath the surfacededicated to advancing Reaper goals.