217 réponses à ce sujet

[fiendishchicken]

David7204 wrote...

Why would Miranda regret working for Cerberus?

She wouldn't. Neither would Shepard, if I so choose. Which I do.

She would regret what they've become, and she would wonder why they became this way.

As for Miranda taking over for the Illusive Man, that's actually a very likely and reasonable thing. 

It's not hard to believe that she was being groomed to be his eventual successor.

Modifié par fiendishchicken, 08 février 2013 - 09:07 .

[David7204]

That wouldn't have much of an impact unless players feel that Cerberus was both something very worthwhile in the first place and something completely ruined at the moment.

[o Ventus]

fiendishchicken wrote...

Miranda is knows what she did for Cerberus and is proud of it. She doesn't believe in what Cerberus has become.

Her issue would not be an emotional breakdown repenting that she had done wrong all her years at Cerberus.

Her issue would be wondering how and where Cerberus started to go off track and why. What made the organization she dedicated a significant portion of her life too become an organization that is, beneath the surfacededicated to advancing Reaper goals.

I figured as much as this. I was more curious as to why specifically an emotional breakdown would be OOC for Miranda, when we are shown numerous times throughout ME2 and 3 that she can become very emotional (not to breakdown levels, but still emotional).

[fiendishchicken]

o Ventus wrote...

fiendishchicken wrote...

Miranda is knows what she did for Cerberus and is proud of it. She doesn't believe in what Cerberus has become.

Her issue would not be an emotional breakdown repenting that she had done wrong all her years at Cerberus.

Her issue would be wondering how and where Cerberus started to go off track and why. What made the organization she dedicated a significant portion of her life too become an organization that is, beneath the surfacededicated to advancing Reaper goals.

I figured as much as this. I was more curious as to why specifically an emotional breakdown would be OOC for Miranda, when we are shown numerous times throughout ME2 and 3 that she can become very emotional (not to breakdown levels, but still emotional).

Well her having emotional moments isn't so much out of character.

David postulating that she'd breakdown emotionally from guilt over working with Cerberus, however, is very out of character.

[fiendishchicken]

David7204 wrote...

That wouldn't have much of an impact unless players feel that Cerberus was both something very worthwhile in the first place and something completely ruined at the moment.

Well, I do believe Cerberus is something very worthwhile. They're message got muddled by the Reapers in the end, but they were worthwhile.

After the war, Shepard and Miranda re-start Cerberus anew. 

[David7204]

Not many other players do. Miranda-romancers or no.

[BirdsallSa]

Miranda isn't anywhere in my playthrough. She's dead. Where an uninteresting, useless character belongs.

[themikefest]

Miranda is very level headed woman. It would take a lot for her to have an emotioal breakdown.

[fiendishchicken]

BirdsallSa wrote...

Miranda isn't anywhere in my playthrough. She's dead. Where an uninteresting, useless character belongs.

With the ME1 team? Sure!

[themikefest]

BirdsallSa wrote...

Miranda isn't anywhere in my playthrough. She's dead. Where an uninteresting, useless character belongs.

She is one of the toughest squadmates. Her powers effect all enemies She is far from being useless.

[o Ventus]

David7204 wrote...

Not many other players do. Miranda-romancers or no.

I find it fascinating how David just... Knows things like this without providing any actual range of numbers.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

My own thoughts is that both Shepard and her blue friend would make sure Miranda and her sister got to safety and well, since Miranda is wanting to fight the reapers, she should be part of the team. She knows the Cerberus base. She's a tech expert as well as a decently strong biotic. I see no downside to having her on board especially if Shepard had her loyalty in ME2. Aller's can have Jack's old quarters. Oriana can have Thane's old quarters.

You have to have EDI on Cronos apparently, but I guess the next slot is who ever you want, so if you had Miranda available why not?

I'm a Liaramancer, and I approve this message.

[Cainhurst Crow]

The implication of "emotional breakdown" is to either go through the heroic blue screen of death and just shut down all together into a almost comatose like state. Or the even worse one of collapsing to their knees blubbering like a git in the middle of a firefight or immediately after.

Miranda seems stronger than to. To me, her reaction will be a brief moment of silence before getting to work securing as much of the illusive mans data and cronos stations systems as possible, and after everything's said and done and taken care of, have an emotion, not over the top, moment with shepard, that doesn't include either of those two elements stated above.

[Shaleist]

StayFrosty05 wrote...

I have seen people repeatedly saying Miranda should be on the ME3 Normandy...

....or Miranda should be a squaddie on Cronos...

....or Miranda should takes tIM's place...

....or Miranda should be the SB...

....and these people seem to feel this is beyond "Because she's my favorite character or LI"....and I am beginning to wonder what the reasoning is behind these views...please explain?

Short of Morinth, Miranda is my least favorite. 

And she's too damn engrained to  the Cerberderp arc to be left out. Thus the overall derpy durp of Cerberderp in Mass Ederp Threrp.

Don't get me wrong... the FULL RETARD! mode Cerberus storytime  goes into is beyond leaving out TIM's former #2. But it surely didn't help to have her go Oriana part deux on us.

Modifié par Shaleist, 09 février 2013 - 02:43 .

[StayFrosty05]

Chiantirose1982 wrote...

I don't understand the whole anti- Cerberus deal. I mean if Shepard really would be feeling that strongly against them, then the only crew should be one of the VS ,Vega, Steve, Traynor, Engineer Adams, Javik and those other random Alliance personel, since those are the only once that didn't join Cerberus. (I know, i know ... if Shepard wouldn't have joined; the Collectors would have killed more humans and finished building the baby reaper ... I'm just saying) <_< Everyone else had some interaction with Cerberus, even Liara dealt with them when handing over Sheps body.

If you run the full dialogs with many of the ME2 squad, they are their because of Shepard, not Cerberus....Chakwas, Samara, Garrus, Tali, Legion, Jack, Mordin and Thane all make it clear to Shep they are there because of him, not Cerberus....Kasumi and Zaeed make it clear they are not employee's of Cerberus, just contracted for this mission.

As for Liara, not every Shep was happy about his body being hunted and handed over....some would have preferred to remain dead than be bought back with a leash around their throat...Think about that for a moment, would you be happy to live as someone elses tool...honestly?

Chiantirose1982 wrote...
Shepard trusts Jacob and he defended Cerberus, saying that they are the only ones investigating the abductions in ME2. Ken and Gabby are very supportive of them, bragging how they ditched the Alliance when they spoke bad about Shepard. Just as examples.

Shep also trusts some total strange scientists enough to send them to Hackett to work on the Crucible.

Shep only trusts Jacob if you choose that dialog path....Ken and
Gabby, ask them why they joined Cerberus, they know next to nothing
about who their working for....Ken and Gabby were in the dark when it
came to info....As for the Scientists, I have been thinking about that and have decided Shep won't be responding to their call when i play next...When I RP, I like to RP to the hilt.

Chiantirose1982 wrote...
If I remember ME2 ending, doesn't Miranda have serious doubts about Cerberus, if you destroy the Collector Base? So you could assume that she would leave in the future.

I'm not a big fan of Miranda, but I was somewhat surprised of the small impact she had. I was expecting her to join my team on Cronos, at least temporarily. Would have loved some Miri and Kaidan chatter

If you don't take Miranda to kill the baby Reaper with you, you simply don't get that dialog.

Miranda should have been on Cornos as Mordin was mission involved on Tuchanka and Legion was mission involved on Rannoch.....not necessarily a squaddie, but heavily involved and impactful on the Cronos story arc.

[StayFrosty05]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Two people Shepard cannot hate in the story are Liara and Miranda. Shepard owes both of them her life. Without Liara she would not be alive; she'd have been in that human reaper. Without Miranda she would not be alive, period. You players may hate them, but get real.

Shepard's a spectre. If Shepard wants Miranda on board, doesn't Shepard's command override the ninnies who didn't prepare and whined "what do we do now?" They didn't even replace the 8 frigates lost in the Battle of the Citadel over a period of 3 years. 9 if you include the Normandy. Good thing Shepard hijacked that ship from Cerberus. Think about flying around the galaxy in ME3 in a stolen shuttle! Now that would have been fun.

Sheps bought back with a leash around his throat in ME2...and he should be thankful?.........Miranda on top of that wanting take it to it's apex by implanting a 'control chip' in his brain....Just think about the implications for a moment, to live under anothers control like that...I wouldn't call that living...as Shep says himself, "There are worse things than dying".

[o Ventus]

StayFrosty05 wrote...
Sheps bought back with a leash around his throat in ME2...and he should be thankful?.........Miranda on top of that wanting take it to it's apex by implanting a 'control chip' in his brain....Just think about the implications for a moment, to live under anothers control like that...I wouldn't call that living...as Shep says himself, "There are worse things than dying".

Shepard is most certainly not brought back effectively as a slave, as you imply. TIM even gives Separd the chance to walk away before Freedom's Progress. The fact that TIM said no to the control chip is another point against Shepard being brought back wih a chain around his neck.

[Nightwriter]

Isaantia wrote...

I'm respectfully disagree with those that feel Miranda should have been on the squad (and/or at Chronos) and here is why:

1. Miranda is a very talented operative in her own right. 

Miranda had many successed prior to ever meeting Shepard, not to mention she ran the project that resurrected Shepard. 
Being on Shepard's squad in ME3 is a waste of her talent. Look at what she does in ME3, solo and with zero resources she fends off Cerberus assassins, Kai Leng, a bunch of Reapers, a bunch of Cerberus troops and still saves her sister, stops the atrocities at Santuary, resolves the issue with her father and gets Shepard the coordinates she needed. Think about what she did completely on her own - its pretty incredible. If she was with Shepard, she would have never had that opportunity to shine like that. 

2. Orriana is not her story arc, her crazy father is her story arc.

If you look at the themes of Mass Effect, a major one is that the created will always rebel against their creators. Miranda is another example of this. 

3. ME3's companions are a sort of mentee of Shepard

James is a Shepard at the beginning of his career
Kaidan/Ash/Garrus/Tali/Liara's career is made because of being part of Shepard's team in ME1
EDI looks to Shepard as her main role model
Javik is the (failed) Shepard of the Protheans.

Eh, these really aren't very solid arguments. You're basically saying "this character is so talented she deserves to get no screen time and no dramatic attention." That doesn't make a lot of sense. You can't say Liara shouldn't be with us when we storm the Shadow Broker ship because, gosh, look how much she can do on her own off screen, why don't we leave her to her independent activities and go without her. Characters need to be on deck when things that are dramatically relevant to them are happening. That's just all there is to it. That's what storytelling is. The criticism isn't that Miranda wasn't with Shepard, the criticism is that Miranda's story potential was basically dumped.

I see a lot of people saying things like "Miranda did X and achieved Y and thus her appearance in ME3 was acceptable." I'm not sure people who say this understand what the meat of fiction is made of -- or if they do, they aren't interested enough in Miranda's character to care that there isn't enough of it to sink your teeth into with her in ME3. Fiction is about drama. Drama comes from characters. No matter how enormous a plot device you make a certain character into, it has little fictional worth if you neglect to exploit story-critical or character-critical drama that demands attention. Miranda could magically appear in the Catalyst's lair at the last minute of the entire series and say "here, I just found this giant Reaper off button," and I would still say she did not play a satisfactory role in ME3 because all that was dramatically important about her character was ignored.

The Tuchanka arc showed a remarkable awareness of how using internal character issues can weave a good story into something outstanding. BioWare is familiar with the concept. Yet when it comes to the issue of Miranda and Cerberus, the potential was pretty much assassinated because BioWare had to cut their losses, and at the end of the day, pleasing the most fans won out over putting the most story-relevant characters in (which is what it makes sense to do when you realize you're not going to be able to satisfy everybody). I understand that perhaps doing Miranda justice couldn't happen, but not that it shouldn't happen.

As for number two -- that one I feel is simply wrong. Miranda's arc is about both Oriana and Henry, but if you had to pick just one to be its focus, it would probably be Oriana. You can tell from how Henry Lawson is only ever relevant in relation to Oriana. We're always pursuing him to save little sis. The harm he's doing on Horizon only comes up later. And for that matter, it really isn't in the arc's best interests to claim that Henry was the focal point; the confrontation with him was super underwhelming.

Furthermore, out of all the themes in Mass Effect, the creators vs creations theme remains one of the weakest and most ill supported, only vaguely relatable to other examples in the series. I cannot acknowledge Henry and Miranda as some well-crafted example of it. 

I have no idea what number three means. I'll just leave that one alone.

Modifié par Nightwriter, 10 février 2013 - 06:08 .

[Landon7001]

people think this way for many reasons but one of the most important is the fact that since me 2, miranda is A VERY MAIN character a box art character, there was no bigger or more important character in me 2, 1/3 of the trilogy

[David7204]

I'm guessing you didn't read the post above you.

[Clayless]

This thread is upsetting me.

I used to think the first question I would ask Bioware would be "The leak showed Liara was supposed to discover a lot of stuff during the story, but in the game a lot of it was given to Traynor, why was that?" but now I think it's going to be "Why was Miranda not a squadmate, despite her plot importance, difficulty to kill and involvement with Cerberus, yet Garrus was?"

[o Ventus]

Robosexual wrote...

This thread is upsetting me.

I used to think the first question I would ask Bioware would be "The leak showed Liara was supposed to discover a lot of stuff during the story, but in the game a lot of it was given to Traynor, why was that?" but now I think it's going to be "Why was Miranda not a squadmate, despite her plot importance, difficulty to kill and involvement with Cerberus, yet Garrus was?"

Possible death can do that.

Well, to anybody who isn't a (specific) turian or quarian.

[Rhayak]

StayFrosty05 wrote...

I have seen people repeatedly saying Miranda should be on the ME3 Normandy...

....or Miranda should be a squaddie on Cronos...

....or Miranda should takes tIM's place...

....or Miranda should be the SB...

....and these people seem to feel this is beyond "Because she's my favorite character or LI"....and I am beginning to wonder what the reasoning is behind these views...please explain?

To OP

Because for every single character in ME3, there's people whining to see more of him/her/it. Reapers included. They can walltext a whole galaxy of reasons, but there really aren't many layers to it (in Miranda's case, the reason is usually possession of boobs).

Other than that, i think the availability as a squadmate depended almost entirely on fan feedback.

Personally, i always found Miranda to be pretty dull. 

[hot_heart]

StayFrosty05 wrote...
If you don't take Miranda to kill the baby Reaper with you, you simply don't get that dialog.

If you don't take her, you don't get the outright resignation but the post-SM lines from her would at least suggest the possibility.

If you destroyed the base, she believes it was the right thing to do (which goes against TIM's wishes). If you kept the base, she's not entirely confident it was the best choice.

[Clayless]

o Ventus wrote...

Robosexual wrote...

This thread is upsetting me.

I used to think the first question I would ask Bioware would be "The leak showed Liara was supposed to discover a lot of stuff during the story, but in the game a lot of it was given to Traynor, why was that?" but now I think it's going to be "Why was Miranda not a squadmate, despite her plot importance, difficulty to kill and involvement with Cerberus, yet Garrus was?"

Possible death can do that.

Well, to anybody who isn't a (specific) turian or quarian.

Doesn't really make much sense, espcially as both Garrus and Tali are optional in one game and easier to be killed than her.