228 réponses à ce sujet

[BleedingUranium]

There is so much fail in this thread, and 95% of it is caused by people either not thinking or not paying attention. Or both.

[DatFlyWire]

-Space teletransportation via biotics: N7 classes. A ball of stupid.

[Maxster_]

Indy_S wrote...

With the logic of the Leviathans, I'm sure they just made robots to probe out space. Those probes would eventually lead to the death of their creators when they boomerang and hit them in the face.

Somehow, that reminded me of Slylandro from Star Control 2(another source of "inspiration" for me).

[o Ventus]

JamesFaith wrote...

You said - TIM's station can't move.

Book said - TIM's station moved from red giant to blue star.

See that difference between your claim and lore source (book) now?

No I didn't. If anything I said came off that way, then that's my fault. 

Regardless, my point was that basing the station's mobility on the in-game presentation is stupid, because the color of the star is based on a binary choice. Especially since that game was released before the novel that explained the base's mobility.

I WILL say that TIM moving his base to numerous stars is not a viable solution. Like I said, unless he has an infinite source of Helium-3 to use as fuel (along with the necessary eezo), he won't be making it anywhere. Relay travel is out of he questioned, because its logged. A secret base isn't so secret when you can look up when it's been relay jumping.

[humes spork]

Maxster_ wrote...

No, we are not.

Yes, we are. You may claim otherwise all you like, it does not change the plain-language codex entries you cited, and I pointed out, that specifically state Thanix and Reaper weapons are thermal weapons.

It of course doesn't matter, because reapers kinetic weapons(Thanix cannon), main guns in that context - are much more powerful than SA or others dreadnoughts guns. Like 130-450 kt TNT impact explosions.

...which has no exposition upon which you can draw to support the kiloton-equivalent yield of Reaper weapons that I've ever seen.

And given the speed of projectile, which is 4000km/s for SA dreadnought main gun(for reapers it is obviously higher), entire lower amosphere is bypassed in far less than 1 second.

I suggest you re-read my previous post with a higher level of detail if you think I'm discussing heat transfer away from the projectile while it is in transit.

[Sebby]

The only useful info the books provide is examples of what a constantly retconned mess this series is like how TIM goes from being based in a penthouse on Earth to some space station that can move around(but not in-game) or how Derperus goes from being nearly wiped out by the Turians and needing Aria to do their dirty work to becoming a Sith Empire overnight in 3.

That and examples of plot points that go nowhere like the Quarians scheming to control the Geth through a Reaper.

[DeinonSlayer]

Seboist wrote...

The only useful info the books provide is examples of what a constantly retconned mess this series is like how TIM goes from being based in a penthouse on Earth to some space station that can move around(but not in-game) or how Derperus goes from being nearly wiped out by the Turians and needing Aria to do their dirty work to becoming a Sith Empire overnight in 3.

That and examples of plot points that go nowhere like the Quarians scheming to control the Geth through a Reaper.

Ah, yeah, I remember that. Xen's insanity knows no bounds.

Cerberus is probably the single messiest part of the lore. Seriously, which book did that happen in? I've only seen the first two.

[Indy_S]

They are ALL. They are capable of ANYTHING. They can get to ANYONE. They can't change a lightbulb without EVERYBODY IN THE BUILDING DYING. They are CERBERUS.

[MrStoob]

I only read the first two pages of this thread and it had already deteriorated into people calling each other stupid for difference of opinion. Please, people, avoid the debating society in college/uni.

[Maxster_]

[quote]humes spork wrote...

[quote]Maxster_ wrote...

No, we are not.[/quote]
Yes, we are. You may claim otherwise all you like, it does not change the plain-language codex entries you cited, and I pointed out, that specifically state Thanix and Reaper weapons are thermal weapons.
[/quote]
No matter how much you repeat your false assertion, it is still false.
Thanix are kinetic weapons, heat transfer doesn't change their destructive power significantly.
And your entire "point" is based on that false statement, - you just made up a false conclusion that reapers weapons are much weaker in atmosphere than in space.
And all that to justify garbage writing.
So no, we are not done, unless you admit that your conclusion is false.
[quote]

[quote]It of course doesn't matter, because reapers kinetic weapons(Thanix cannon), main guns in that context - are much more powerful than SA or others dreadnoughts guns. Like 130-450 kt TNT impact explosions.[/quote]
...which has no exposition upon which you can draw to support the kiloton-equivalent yield of Reaper weapons that I've ever seen.
[/quote]
Do you really think that i have no proof when i make such statements? I'm not you
link
[quote] Reaper Capabilities
The Reapers are technologically superior to the organic species of
the galaxy -- but the degree of that superiority is a matter of debate
in the intelligence community.
The Reapers' thrusters and FTL drives appear to propel them at
more than twice the speed of Citadel ships. Estimates of their location
in dark space suggest they can travel nearly 30 light-years in a 24-hour
period.
Reaper power sources seem to violate known physical laws. Reapers
usually destroy fuel infrastructure rather than attempting to capture
it intact, indicating that Reapers do not require organic species'
energy supplies. Consequently, the Reapers attack without regard for
maintaining supply lines behind them, except to move husks from one
planet to another. Unlike Citadel ships, Reapers do not appear to
discharge static buildup from their drive cores, although they sometimes
appear wreathed in static discharge when they land on planets.
The main gun on a Reaper capital ship dwarfs that of the
Alliance's Everest-class dreadnoughts. No dreadnought has yet survived a
direct hit from the weapon. Estimates put its destructive power
anywhere from 132 to 454 kilotons of TNT. Even if the target is
hardened, as in the case of a surface-based missile silo, the gun can
instead bury the target beneath molten metal. Precise targeting
computers and correctors also give the Reaper weapons a longer effective
range than organics' dreadnoughts or cruisers.
The kinetic barriers on a Reaper capital ship can shrug off the
firepower of a small fleet. Weapons specifically designed to overcome
shields, such as the Javelin, GARDIAN lasers, or the Thanix series, can
bypass the barriers to some degree. The difficulty is getting close
enough to use them -- the surface-mounted weaponry on Reaper ships,
similar in principle to GARDIAN, presents an effective defense against
organic species' fighters.
[/quote]
And of course, that was established in ME1.
link
[quote]Sovereign[/b] is the flagship of the rogue Spectre Saren Arterius. An enormous dreadnought larger than any other ship in any known fleet, Sovereign is crewed with both geth and krogan. At two kilometers long, its spinal-mounted main gun is likely capable of penetrating another dreadnought's kinetic barriers with a single shot.
The prevailing opinion is that Sovereign is a geth construct, while others believe it is a Prothean relic. Its design, however, hints at a more alien and mysterious origin. The attack on Eden Prime demonstrated Sovereign's ability to generate mass effect fields powerful enough to land on a planetary surface. This implies it has a massive element zero core, and the ability to generate staggering amounts of power.
[/quote]
Anyway, there were no exposition of that in ME1 other than in planetary descriptions, - devastated planets from orbital bombardment, which was supposedly(in ME1) conducted by the reapers.
And in ME3, in planetary descriptions and in codex entries, reapers are excessively using those capabilities in orbital bombardment.

But if you are just ignoring codex, to "prove" your "point" - that discussion is, of course, completely pointless.
Anyway, for Systems Alliance's dreadnoughts - link.
[quote]
[quote]And given the speed of projectile, which is 4000km/s for SA dreadnought main gun(for reapers it is obviously higher), entire lower amosphere is bypassed in far less than 1 second.[/quote]
I suggest you re-read my previous post with a higher level of detail if you think I'm discussing heat transfer away from the projectile while it is in transit.[/quote]
My dear comrade, you discussing exactly that.
[quote]
Fire such a weapon in vacuum, and you've little problem. The projectile -- and its target when hit
-- can only lose heat by way of radiation, while heat conducts through
the intended target's structure and continues weakening it over time,
especially the longer the weapon is trained on its target (and the more
heat is dumped into it).[/quote]
You made a false statement that thanix weapon is a thermal weapon. And made that conclusion, that damage from thanix projectile comes from heat.
Have you any idea about kinetic energy, and inelastic collisions? Or i should cite wiki for you?
[quote]An inelastic collision, in contrast to an elastic collision, is a collision in which kinetic energy is not conserved.
In collisions of macroscopic bodies, some kinetic energy is turned into vibrational energy of the atoms, causing a heating effect, and the bodies are deformed.[/quote]
Therefore, your entire reasoning about heat transfer as a reason of reapers weapons being ineffective is a pure nonsense, because inelastic collision of such magnitude makes instant heating, transferring part of a kinetic energy of a projectile to a target.
[quote]

Firing such a weapon in atmosphere is a whole different bag of
cats, since heat can be (very rapidly) conducted and convected away as
well, which means such a thermal weapon would be dramatically less
effective in an atmosphere than in vacuum since targets can sink heat
much faster in atmosphere than in vacuum, perhaps even weaker than a
corresponding mass driver the entirety of its destructive power lies in
impact force. And to think some of you may wonder why that Alliance
cruiser in the prologue had such a slugfest with a Reaper when in later
scenes in space they get instagibbed.[/quote]
This is also false conclusion, based on false statement.

[Maxster_]

Indy_S wrote...

They are ALL. They are capable of ANYTHING. They can get to ANYONE. They can't change a lightbulb without EVERYBODY IN THE BUILDING DYING. They are CERBERUS.

You win

[Eterna]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Why the Reapers were created is a big one. 

To help the Catalyst preserve organic life. 

[nos_astra]

Eterna5 wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Why the Reapers were created is a big one. 

To help the Catalyst preserve organic life. 

Yeah well, "preserve".

[NinjaTurtle12]

Eterna5 wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Why the Reapers were created is a big one. 

To help the Catalyst preserve organic life. 

And eliminate options of machine rebellions by destroying organic life who is going to make them

[JaegerBane]

DatFlyWire wrote...

-Space teletransportation via biotics: N7 classes. A ball of stupid.

Not so much. Most of the biotic powers that 'teleport' their users are just the same technique used to shift vessels across space at FTL speeds. The thing is, moving from A to B at FTL speeds will look more or less instant when A and B are a few metres apart.

[Ticonderoga117]

Eterna5 wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Why the Reapers were created is a big one. 

To help the Catalyst preserve organic life. 

By using giant lasers! That is not preservation.

[JaegerBane]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Why the Reapers were created is a big one. 

To help the Catalyst preserve organic life. 

By using giant lasers! That is not preservation.

That depends on how you define 'preservation'. Convert a species into a form that can literally last until the end of time certainly would count as 'preserving' them.

[Ticonderoga117]

JaegerBane wrote...
That depends on how you define 'preservation'. Convert a species into a form that can literally last until the end of time certainly would count as 'preserving' them.

But then the species no longer exists. They are a space squid now.

Nevermind the fact that they didn't try to preserve the Protheans. They outright changed them completely without using a Reaper form.

[Maxster_]

NinjaTurtle12 wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Why the Reapers were created is a big one. 

To help the Catalyst preserve organic life. 

And eliminate options of machine rebellions by destroying organic life who is going to make them

Everyone is dead - "problem" "solved".
Who cares for those petty organics?

[JaegerBane]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

JaegerBane wrote...
That depends on how you define 'preservation'. Convert a species into a form that can literally last until the end of time certainly would count as 'preserving' them.

But then the species no longer exists. They are a space squid now.

Nevermind the fact that they didn't try to preserve the Protheans. They outright changed them completely without using a Reaper form.

The point is that in the eyes of the Reapers/Leviathans/Harbinger, everthing worthwhile is still preserved.

IIRC they did try to preserve the Protheans, but failed. That was the reason for the Collector development.

This is the core problem with the Leviathan's approach that resulted in the Reapers. Their views differ on what is the right thing to do, and as a result none of them see themselves as doing anything wrong.

Modifié par JaegerBane, 08 février 2013 - 03:23 .

[Ticonderoga117]

JaegerBane wrote...
The point is that in the eyes of the Reapers/Leviathans/Harbinger, everthing worthwhile is still preserved.

IIRC they did try to preserve the Protheans, but failed. That was the reason for the Collector development.

This is the core problem with the Leviathan's approach that resulted in the Reapers. Their views differ on what is the right thing to do, and as a result none of them see themselves as doing anything wrong.

Which is? All we know is that the genetic makeup of a species is preserved, somehow, in a Reaper. There is nothing to show that any of the culture survives.

Nevermind the fact that we KNOW the Reapers don't preserve everyone! Harby says as much in ME2. Humans were the only race worthy of Reaperization. Not the Quarians, Krogan, Asari, Turians, Drell, Hanar, Batarians, etc.

What about them? See this is why I say the ending doesn't fit. Previous events argue that the Reapers aren't here to preserve us in some wierd techno-zombie squid body.

[JaegerBane]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

JaegerBane wrote...
The point is that in the eyes of the Reapers/Leviathans/Harbinger, everthing worthwhile is still preserved.

IIRC they did try to preserve the Protheans, but failed. That was the reason for the Collector development.

This is the core problem with the Leviathan's approach that resulted in the Reapers. Their views differ on what is the right thing to do, and as a result none of them see themselves as doing anything wrong.

Which is? All we know is that the genetic makeup of a species is preserved, somehow, in a Reaper. There is nothing to show that any of the culture survives.

So? It's pretty obvious the reapers do not consider culture to be relevant.

Nevermind the fact that we KNOW the Reapers don't preserve everyone! Harby says as much in ME2. Humans were the only race worthy of Reaperization. Not the Quarians, Krogan, Asari, Turians, Drell, Hanar, Batarians, etc.

What about them? See this is why I say the ending doesn't fit. Previous events argue that the Reapers aren't here to preserve us in some wierd techno-zombie squid body.

The Reapers motives don't make sense, that's the point. The entire Reaper concept stems from The Intelligence/Starchild going out of control and turning on his creators because the logic it strung together came to the conclusion that in order for it to accomplish its mission, it had to preserve a species' core characterstics in a form that could outlast time and war. The fact that doing this would lead to genocide and accomplish the very thing that the Intelligence was trying to stop is the irony of it.

Also, humans weren't the only species worthy of Reaperisation. It's made pretty clear in ME3 that species from across the galaxy are being harvested and melted down. Husks and whatnot only happen to a fraction of the species.

[humes spork]

Maxster_ wrote...

No matter how much you repeat your false assertion, it is still false.

I'll make this simple for you:

Are you asserting the Mass Effect codex does not discuss the thermal effect(s) of Reaper and Thanix weapons?

Do you really think that i have no proof when i make such statements? I'm not you

It's nice that you found a link discussing the kiloton equivalent of Reaper capital ship weapons when we're discussing destroyers. Still, it's something I suppose.

My dear comrade, you discussing exactly that...Have you any idea about kinetic energy, and inelastic collisions?

Yet again, I suggest you re-read my initial post with a higher level of detail and scrutiny. I'm not discussing thermal energy transfer away from the projectile as it is fired, nor thermal energy generated by the impact though you are correct, additional thermal energy would be created by the impact itself.

Hint: what happens to all that molten and superelastic (since fractions of a second at relativistic speeds with only radiation to cause heat loss would not be sufficient to allow a phase transition from liquid to solid, regardless what the codex would like to state) metal once it's shot into a target?

[1337b0r0m1r]

JaegerBane wrote...

The Reapers motives don't make sense, that's the point. The entire Reaper concept stems from The Intelligence/Starchild going out of control and turning on his creators because the logic it strung together came to the conclusion that in order for it to accomplish its mission, it had to preserve a species' core characterstics in a form that could outlast time and war. The fact that doing this would lead to genocide and accomplish the very thing that the Intelligence was trying to stop is the irony of it.

In the real world, many bad things happen as well because people follow some inner logic that seems perverted or nonsensical from the outside. Such as a leader of a people letting his people die to prevent them from being conquered by the enemy. Why are people so upset if it is the same here?

As I understood it, the main purpose of the reapers was not to preserve any species characteristics, but to preserve life - any life - at all costs. Because sufficiently sophisticated species would eventually create artificial "life" that will eventually attempt to whipe out all organic life - not just some species -  in the galaxy. 
The logic only doesn't make any sense from the viewpoint of the races that are to be terminated by the reapers. For those races, yes, their races are whiped out now in order to prevent them from maybe being whiped out later. 
The fact that the player can make peace between quarians and geth, what is often cited as proof that the reaper's logic was wrong, is just a counter-example, nothing more. It does not preclude the geth will change their mind in the future, or that any other artificial life that is ever created will whipe out all life. It at most proofs that it is not always  bound to happen - but not that it can never happen.

Of course that doesn't mean that this is the "best" option to preserve organic life. A more logical option would be to whipe out any artificial life as soon as it turns against all organic life forms. Or as soon as it turns against their creators. Or whipe out both creators and created - to give a stern warning to all orgnics not to create too sophisticated artificial life again, if you want. Or even to whipe out all advanced organic and synthetic species as soon as there actually exists a synthetic species that attempts to whipe out all organic life.

But again, it doesn't matter if there are "better" options - after all, how do we know how an ancient alien AI exactly works - it just has to have enough inner logic. And that condition is, in my opinion, fulfilled.

Modifié par 1337b0r0m1r, 08 février 2013 - 04:30 .