243 réponses à ce sujet

[imbs]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Luckywallace wrote...

DA2 - I can't go back and play DA:O combat now.... it just feels too slow and clunky...
:-(

+100

lol, DA2 is winning the poll by 2/3 of the votes but you wouldn't know it by the comments here. It seems  it is mostly DAO combat fans come here to post. 

You could never guess so because DA2 fans cant actually articulate why they love DA2 combat so much outside of "it feels faster"........

Even still posters offer nothing. Preferring it because it's harder than DAO also makes no sense because it's such a ****** easy game itself.

Modifié par imbs, 09 février 2013 - 07:01 .

[TheBlackAdder13]

I really wanted to vote for DA 2 but I just couldn't get over the waves that completely invalidated any semblance of tactics. It just got so uninteresting and felt more like grinding than DA:O ever did, even though DA 2's combat was actually faster.

[Amycus89]

I somehow think that the answer to this question will heavily depend whether you are playing on console or PC... I'm a PC gamer and much prefer DA:O's combat, but I will admit that I would likely be turned off by the auto-attack if I was playing with a controller.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Having just watched the Wasteland 2 gameplay video, it only reinforces how much I want tactical combat I can approach methodically and in character.

[Renmiri1]

Amycus89 wrote...

I somehow think that the answer to this question will heavily depend whether you are playing on console or PC... I'm a PC gamer and much prefer DA:O's combat, but I will admit that I would likely be turned off by the auto-attack if I was playing with a controller.

So am I and DAO combat is almost unplayable to me. But I'm used to World of Warcraft twitchy highly reactive real time combat with no pause button.

The way I see it, DAO combat was a completely different style, more like chess than combat. To me, IMHO, not presuming my word is law.

Funny thing is that I played Final Fantasy 12 with a similar combat and it never bothered me, I think DAO had something wrong with it, or I have gotten more demanding since FF12 came out.

[Renmiri1]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Having just watched the Wasteland 2 gameplay video, it only reinforces how much I want tactical combat I can approach methodically and in character.

How can pausing combat be in character ????

"Excuse me Ser Alric, stop attacking me, I have to organize my team and hand out potions."

"Mr Archdemon, take a 5 minutes break, my archer left his proper spot."

How ?????

[In Exile]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Storm of the Century was too large to be that broadly applicable.  Friendly fire was too great a risk.

You can perform Storm of the Centry with a single mage. And it's unbelievable if you take advantage of the camera exploit (which lets you cast by opening doors, pausing, then closing the door, and cleaning out the whole room.

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

But only on Nightmare.  And DA2 achieved that diffuclty partly through completely arbitrary and lore-breaking damage immunities.

But at least it involved a minimal level of thought. 

Vaeliorin wrote...
While I'd agree there were less broken classes, abilities, items, etc., I'd disagree that DA2's combat is more difficult.  It seems so initially, but once you figure out that there's really only 3 types of non-boss enemies (1-shot assassins, AoE 1-shot mages, harmless mooks), it becomes pretty trivial.  Once you learn to put the backs of non-tanks to the walls whenever you see assassins, and that you have to crowd control and focus fire all assassin and AoE mage types, the combat offers basically no challenge at all outside of bosses, even on Nightmare.

Two points: (1) that's two more enemy types than DA:O; (2) doing things like drawing assasins out of stealth and setting up CCCs combos, to me, felt more involvign than in DA:O, which was stand and cast AOEs; it also meant the party was more involved.

But beyond that, the actual encounters were more challenging. An Assasin could 1-hit KO a party member. It was impossible for us to have 1-hit KO abilities like in DA:O. 

Vaeliorin wrote...
This isn't to say that DA had great and complex combat, but enemies other than the ones that would 1-shot you still needed to be paid attention in DA, as they had the potential to cause problems.  Enemies who could stun/knockdown/etc., added some variety to the combat that was lacking in DA2.

I don't know what enemies you're talking about, because there was no enemy in DA:O that could ever 1-hit KO a PC/NPC of mine. And I don't mean that in the didn't live long enough to even be able to use an ability to do that way (though that was also true). Also, what stuns (besides human archers at high levels)? 

[KiwiQuiche]

DA2 combat by a long shot. Combat in DAO is so damn boring I can't even really replay the game.

[Sylvius the Mad]

In Exile wrote...

You can perform Storm of the Centry with a single mage.

You can, but the casting time is quite a bit shorter if you use multilpe mages.  And the friendly fire issue is still significant.

I maintain that Paralysis Explosion is the more over-powered combo (and, as such, I like it more).

But at least it involved a minimal level of thought.

It required a minimum level of thought.  But the maximum level of thought was also low, given the narrow tactical capabilities of each class.

DAO allowed more interesting tactics.  It didn't require them, but that's not the only relevant standard.

Also, what stuns (besides human archers at high levels)?

The variety of knockdown/overwhelm attacks in DAO are, I suspect, to what Vael refers.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 10 février 2013 - 09:20 .

[philippe willaume]

well
in DA:2 combat usually resolved quicker, except the peta hit points with immunity cases. Not to mention DA: 0 movement which makes loitering with intent exiting.

That being said, in DA:2 you spent you time doing exactly the same thing over and over and over and is not helped by each char/comp being a one trick pony. So that pushed boredom to realm of disconnection with reality.

At least when you play sub-optimal build in DA:2 you can scout ahead, and use the terrain and companions respond in a timely fashion and stay where you told them to. So you end up being much more involved and the combat, even if taking longer to resolve, is actually less boring and almost without the need to pause.

Now playing with two mages in DA:0 can make the above statement irrelevant , just as in DA:2 ultimate build makes companion utterly irrelevant.

so for me DA:2 misses the feature that gives DA:0 much deeper tactical complexity.
phil

[Cimeas]

I can try and articulate why DA2 combat is better, and thus CLEARLY winning the poll.

It feels smoother. Characters jump/dodge/dive across the map. When you tell them to go somewhere, they don't shuffle there, they GO there straight away. The animations are fast, and I realise I'll be mocked for this, EXCITING. Yes, it is more exciting to see someone slash away or wave a stave around than it is to see a badly animated 'slash' for 10 minutes. It just is.

Obviously Sylvius considers RPGs more as 'adventure simulators' rather than actual games (in fact I think he literally said he doesn't consider them games) but for the majority of us, who do, DA2's combat is more interesting.

Animations for spells are also way better. Thunderstorms/Infernos in DA:O were sprites, shoddily animated, hardly any particle effects.

IN DA2, tactics weren't just available to the hardcore. Anyone could suck a few enemies in with Pull of The Abyss, and then freeze them with a Cone of Cold, before sending Aveline in to destroy them in one shot each once they'd been made 'Brittle'.

DA2 *FELT* fun to me, and though the waves clearly sucked, the rest of the combat was great.

[FieryDove]

Cimeas wrote...

I can try and articulate why DA2 combat is better, and thus CLEARLY winning the poll.

It feels smoother. Characters jump/dodge/dive across the map. When you tell them to go somewhere, they don't shuffle there, they GO there straight away. 

I wish this was true. Combat starts, trap spotted, Varric go deal with it! Shuffle, Shuffle, Shuffle.

Fine next fight, trap spotted my archer rogue will deal with it...shuffle x3, what?! $%#&!

sigh

[wardwvuillemot]

 I am replaying DA:O on my Mac after a few years away when I played on my PS3.  At the same time, my girlfriend has become a (rabid) fan of DA:O and DA2, having made a mad dash through all of the content on the PS3 in the last few months -- and she is not a _gamer_ by any stretch of the imagination; albeit she is a former very old-school text-only RPG'er.

She loved the openness of DA:O but felt a bit overwhelmed at times.  If anything, I think she loved the openness but given it was her first console RPG it is understandable that just about everything regarding the game felt overwhelming at times.  She just finished DA2 2 nights ago; and generally preferred the faster pace of DA2 from those nights when she wanted to blast through things.  After watching her play from the side, I must admit I really enjoyed the fluidness of DA2 through her thief.

When I originally played DA:O I went as a damage-dealing mage.  I loved the ability to stand-back and marshall the troops to devastating attack.  And I still love this kind of build.  But for the sake of experimentation, I tried to go down a dual-wielding thief (cunning) build.  I love still love DA:O -- and argubly I am new to the thief class -- but I feel like control of the group is limited.  I tend to jump to a mage or an archer to retain battle situational awareness.  I jump to my thief when I need something specific of him, but otherwise leave him on auto-pilot during battles.  Again, it may just be my unfamilarity with the build.

I am looking forward to DA2 to see if my preference to stand back continues.  It will be hard to tell since by the time I get to DA2 I hope to have a better mastery of the class which will materially impact my assessment.  Nevertheless, out take-aways are this:

1. DA:O rocks for open-ended content
2. DA2 rocks for fluid, direct battles and story progression
3. It is a toss of controller over keyboard; I am proficient with both, my girlfriend is a controller-only kind-of lady
4. We think it is a no-brainer for DA:O and DA2 to have a baby together (and NOT sacrifice it) to make DA:Inq
  - how do you wrangle side-quests?
  - can their be major, linear detours of story-arc that embellish on the main story arc and bring you eventually back to the main-line?  In this way, it feels all linear but longer, while retaining brevity for those who opt for that. (why would they, though?)
  - i think some of the DA:O side-quests felt like farming for exp than expanding the story-line.  I think Skyrim's minor story-arcs feel more meaningful and world-building ... you do not have to do them, but man, it is so worth it
  - i think Witcher, as a whole, has a tighter story-line ... but it comes with a high price of being forced a single character  

[Slargfar]

With mods - Origins.

Without Mods - DA:2

[MeghanBrooks]

DA:O for Warriors and Rouges, DA2 for Mages.

I thought Bioware improved upon the mage fighting style exponentially in DA2, it was nice to actually look like you're involved in the fight as a mage, especially when using a staff with a blade at the end.

The rouge animations were a little too over the top to me, i know it's fantasy, but it's also nice to see stuff that it looks like Joe Everyman could do if they were limber/agile enough.

I'd love to see a balance of the animations/mechanics in Inquisition, and it seems that we might just get it.

[Hatchetman77]

 I liked the strategy in DA:O and the fact that you could tackle the same fight in a multitude of ways depending on group makeup and skills.  You could sneak in, disable traps and lay your own prior to the battle starting, you could equip all your warriors and rogues with ranged weapons and open up from afar while your mages nuke them with AoE, etc etc.  

However I did swear at my companions for doing stupid **** a LOT more in DA:O than in DA:2, so while I enjoyed DA:O better I would still like to see a LITTLE of DA:2 combat in DA:I.

Modifié par Hatchetman77, 10 février 2013 - 09:32 .

[Nefla]

I prefer the combat in DA:O, to me it felt like there was a lot more abilities and I liked the harder, fewer enemies that you had to strategize to beat. I hated the millions of parachuting junk troops that exploded when they died. DA2 battles were an annoying chore, if there had been an "encounter none" equip like in old school jrpg s (where you fight only bosses and no random encounters) I would have had it equipped constantly. However I didn't love the DA:O combat either. The only combat I actually like is twitch combat.

[KotorEffect3]

I liked the flow and responsiveness of DA2's combat but wasn't crazy abourt the cartoonish animations. I prefferred DAO's animations (and finishers). So some sort of combination of the two would work for me.

[imbs]

In Exile wrote...


You can perform Storm of the Centry with a single mage. And it's unbelievable if you take advantage of the camera exploit (which lets you cast by opening doors, pausing, then closing the door, and cleaning out the whole room.

I am confused. You are suprised that an exploit can break certain fights? sweet.

But at least it involved a minimal level of thought. 

We must have been playing different games. Melee mobs in DA2 are utterly worthless. Most mages are as well (lol let's just CC myself with an immunity the entire fight.... until ofc you have killed all my friends, whereupon I shall remove the immunity so you can promptly kill me. Only thought required is coming up with kill priority list which takes about 3 fights. Mages -> Assassins -> Archers -> everything else -> "immune hero" mages. Part from that it's jsut spam CCCs until the dogs come home.

Rly hard.

Two points: (1) that's two more enemy types than DA:O; (2) doing things like drawing assasins out of stealth and setting up CCCs combos, to me, felt more involvign than in DA:O, which was stand and cast AOEs; it also meant the party was more involved.

But beyond that, the actual encounters were more challenging. An Assasin could 1-hit KO a party member. It was impossible for us to have 1-hit KO abilities like in DA:O. 

Firstly well built characters always always survived at least one hit from an assassin outside of glass cannon builds. Secondly you could 1-hit KO everything (including assassins) in act 3 outside of bosses, and most things before that with the ridiculous CCC system. You say more involved yet you could do it all with tactics, UNlike in DAO

I don't know what enemies you're talking about, because there was no enemy in DA:O that could ever 1-hit KO a PC/NPC of mine. And I don't mean that in the didn't live long enough to even be able to use an ability to do that way (though that was also true). Also, what stuns (besides human archers at high levels)? 

 Whilst maybe not techinically one-shots, mages could easily stunlock you into the floor before your character could move, overwhelm would stun you and oneshot certain classes. There were ways to avoid and counter these spells, but they you know, required thought. More thought than oh check it out assassins went invisible better pause it n aoe him. Oh or maybe you mean how half the aoes didnt even pull them out of stealth? Does having to learn those count as thought? Great game man. Half your aoes inexplicably don't work on something. Not to mention you could exploit them by just running in a straight line away from where they went stealth... It only lasts 15 seconds or so so they would appear soon enough and get gibbed anyway.

And seriously, what stuns? for reals? How about overwhelm, web (both of these found on the same mob even), Scatter Shot, Dirty fighting, the ridiculous amount of knockdowns mobs have access to, Paralyze, Crushing prison, everything else enemy mages have access to. There are so many more things to react to in DAO the fact you used it as an argument is hilarious. What stuns are there in DA2? Not that it matters once you get one of those immune to stun items (lmao hard game)

And melee mobs arent an utter joke in DAO. You cant just right click on the ground randomly when you decide you want to take 0 melee damage for nearly no sacrifice in that game.

[imbs]

Cimeas wrote...

I can try and articulate why DA2 combat is better, and thus CLEARLY winning the poll.

It feels smoother. Characters jump/dodge/dive across the map. When you tell them to go somewhere, they don't shuffle there, they GO there straight away. The animations are fast, and I realise I'll be mocked for this, EXCITING. Yes, it is more exciting to see someone slash away or wave a stave around than it is to see a badly animated 'slash' for 10 minutes. It just is.

Obviously Sylvius considers RPGs more as 'adventure simulators' rather than actual games (in fact I think he literally said he doesn't consider them games) but for the majority of us, who do, DA2's combat is more interesting.

Animations for spells are also way better. Thunderstorms/Infernos in DA:O were sprites, shoddily animated, hardly any particle effects.

IN DA2, tactics weren't just available to the hardcore. Anyone could suck a few enemies in with Pull of The Abyss, and then freeze them with a Cone of Cold, before sending Aveline in to destroy them in one shot each once they'd been made 'Brittle'.

DA2 *FELT* fun to me, and though the waves clearly sucked, the rest of the combat was great.

So we have feels smoother to add to feels faster and feels more difficult (lol). I already was aware that a lot of you people liked the game more because rather than something balanced, like walking, you teleport all the over the map in DA2 with a simple rclick. Let's ignore the fact that its one of the things that breaks melee mobs; it looks flashier and feels faster !!!!!!!

I also find your definition of the word tactics amusing. Running in and spamming ridiculous abilities like Pull of the Abyss, that aoe slow in the same tree, fire storm, cone of cold, and pretty much any CCC was not tactical in the slightest.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Cimeas wrote...

DA2 *FELT* fun to me

We're appealing to feelings now?

If it matters, measure it.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 11 février 2013 - 09:09 .

[Mantaal]

imbs wrote...

In Exile wrote...


You can perform Storm of the Centry with a single mage. And it's unbelievable if you take advantage of the camera exploit (which lets you cast by opening doors, pausing, then closing the door, and cleaning out the whole room.

I am confused. You are suprised that an exploit can break certain fights? sweet.

But at least it involved a minimal level of thought. 

We must have been playing different games. Melee mobs in DA2 are utterly worthless. Most mages are as well (lol let's just CC myself with an immunity the entire fight.... until ofc you have killed all my friends, whereupon I shall remove the immunity so you can promptly kill me. Only thought required is coming up with kill priority list which takes about 3 fights. Mages -> Assassins -> Archers -> everything else -> "immune hero" mages. Part from that it's jsut spam CCCs until the dogs come home.

Rly hard.

Two points: (1) that's two more enemy types than DA:O; (2) doing things like drawing assasins out of stealth and setting up CCCs combos, to me, felt more involvign than in DA:O, which was stand and cast AOEs; it also meant the party was more involved.

But beyond that, the actual encounters were more challenging. An Assasin could 1-hit KO a party member. It was impossible for us to have 1-hit KO abilities like in DA:O. 

Firstly well built characters always always survived at least one hit from an assassin outside of glass cannon builds. Secondly you could 1-hit KO everything (including assassins) in act 3 outside of bosses, and most things before that with the ridiculous CCC system. You say more involved yet you could do it all with tactics, UNlike in DAO

I don't know what enemies you're talking about, because there was no enemy in DA:O that could ever 1-hit KO a PC/NPC of mine. And I don't mean that in the didn't live long enough to even be able to use an ability to do that way (though that was also true). Also, what stuns (besides human archers at high levels)? 

 Whilst maybe not techinically one-shots, mages could easily stunlock you into the floor before your character could move, overwhelm would stun you and oneshot certain classes. There were ways to avoid and counter these spells, but they you know, required thought. More thought than oh check it out assassins went invisible better pause it n aoe him. Oh or maybe you mean how half the aoes didnt even pull them out of stealth? Does having to learn those count as thought? Great game man. Half your aoes inexplicably don't work on something. Not to mention you could exploit them by just running in a straight line away from where they went stealth... It only lasts 15 seconds or so so they would appear soon enough and get gibbed anyway.

And seriously, what stuns? for reals? How about overwhelm, web (both of these found on the same mob even), Scatter Shot, Dirty fighting, the ridiculous amount of knockdowns mobs have access to, Paralyze, Crushing prison, everything else enemy mages have access to. There are so many more things to react to in DAO the fact you used it as an argument is hilarious. What stuns are there in DA2? Not that it matters once you get one of those immune to stun items (lmao hard game)

And melee mobs arent an utter joke in DAO. You cant just right click on the ground randomly when you decide you want to take 0 melee damage for nearly no sacrifice in that game.

All true. But you cant beat the "Omg im so awsome i can beat a quadtrillion Mobs with my cool Ninja Animations!" with logic and gameplay. 

[Melca36]

Cimeas wrote...

I can try and articulate why DA2 combat is better, and thus CLEARLY winning the poll.

It feels smoother. Characters jump/dodge/dive across the map. When you tell them to go somewhere, they don't shuffle there, they GO there straight away. The animations are fast, and I realise I'll be mocked for this, EXCITING. Yes, it is more exciting to see someone slash away or wave a stave around than it is to see a badly animated 'slash' for 10 minutes. It just is.

Obviously Sylvius considers RPGs more as 'adventure simulators' rather than actual games (in fact I think he literally said he doesn't consider them games) but for the majority of us, who do, DA2's combat is more interesting.

Animations for spells are also way better. Thunderstorms/Infernos in DA:O were sprites, shoddily animated, hardly any particle effects.

IN DA2, tactics weren't just available to the hardcore. Anyone could suck a few enemies in with Pull of The Abyss, and then freeze them with a Cone of Cold, before sending Aveline in to destroy them in one shot each once they'd been made 'Brittle'.

DA2 *FELT* fun to me, and though the waves clearly sucked, the rest of the combat was great.

If it was so interesting then why are they changing it?

This poll represents a small portion of the audience.    It means nothing. They already stated combat in the next game would NOT be like DA2's or Origins.

I think people need to face the reality that DA3 is likely going to be a very DIFFERENT GAME


And a reminder.........




Enemies materializing from the ceiling was ridiculous.

Modifié par Melca36, 11 février 2013 - 10:57 .

[Melca36]

Mantaal wrote...

imbs wrote...

In Exile wrote...


You can perform Storm of the Centry with a single mage. And it's unbelievable if you take advantage of the camera exploit (which lets you cast by opening doors, pausing, then closing the door, and cleaning out the whole room.

I am confused. You are suprised that an exploit can break certain fights? sweet.

But at least it involved a minimal level of thought. 

We must have been playing different games. Melee mobs in DA2 are utterly worthless. Most mages are as well (lol let's just CC myself with an immunity the entire fight.... until ofc you have killed all my friends, whereupon I shall remove the immunity so you can promptly kill me. Only thought required is coming up with kill priority list which takes about 3 fights. Mages -> Assassins -> Archers -> everything else -> "immune hero" mages. Part from that it's jsut spam CCCs until the dogs come home.

Rly hard.

Two points: (1) that's two more enemy types than DA:O; (2) doing things like drawing assasins out of stealth and setting up CCCs combos, to me, felt more involvign than in DA:O, which was stand and cast AOEs; it also meant the party was more involved.

But beyond that, the actual encounters were more challenging. An Assasin could 1-hit KO a party member. It was impossible for us to have 1-hit KO abilities like in DA:O. 

Firstly well built characters always always survived at least one hit from an assassin outside of glass cannon builds. Secondly you could 1-hit KO everything (including assassins) in act 3 outside of bosses, and most things before that with the ridiculous CCC system. You say more involved yet you could do it all with tactics, UNlike in DAO

I don't know what enemies you're talking about, because there was no enemy in DA:O that could ever 1-hit KO a PC/NPC of mine. And I don't mean that in the didn't live long enough to even be able to use an ability to do that way (though that was also true). Also, what stuns (besides human archers at high levels)? 

 Whilst maybe not techinically one-shots, mages could easily stunlock you into the floor before your character could move, overwhelm would stun you and oneshot certain classes. There were ways to avoid and counter these spells, but they you know, required thought. More thought than oh check it out assassins went invisible better pause it n aoe him. Oh or maybe you mean how half the aoes didnt even pull them out of stealth? Does having to learn those count as thought? Great game man. Half your aoes inexplicably don't work on something. Not to mention you could exploit them by just running in a straight line away from where they went stealth... It only lasts 15 seconds or so so they would appear soon enough and get gibbed anyway.

And seriously, what stuns? for reals? How about overwhelm, web (both of these found on the same mob even), Scatter Shot, Dirty fighting, the ridiculous amount of knockdowns mobs have access to, Paralyze, Crushing prison, everything else enemy mages have access to. There are so many more things to react to in DAO the fact you used it as an argument is hilarious. What stuns are there in DA2? Not that it matters once you get one of those immune to stun items (lmao hard game)

And melee mobs arent an utter joke in DAO. You cant just right click on the ground randomly when you decide you want to take 0 melee damage for nearly no sacrifice in that game.

All true. But you cant beat the "Omg im so awsome i can beat a quadtrillion Mobs with my cool Ninja Animations!" with logic and gameplay. 

It all goes down to one thing...people want everything instantly and want things handed to them instead working for it when they game.

There really is NOTHING wrong with either combat style but those animations in DA2 were over the top and ridiculous. The Rogue Skill.."DECOY" didn't even make sense. It was silly that your toon can create an identical version of himself/herself

My hope is the DA3 combat will be a compromise. DA2's combat pandered to one fan base and was not fair at all.

It will be interesting to see which group protests the most once the new game comes out.

Modifié par Melca36, 11 février 2013 - 10:57 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Renmiri1 wrote...

How can pausing combat be in character ????

I am not my character.  He can (sometimes) make decisions faster than I can.  He can almost certainly employ his limbs (a natural act) than I can navigate the game's interface.

And, most importantly, he makes decisions differently from how I make decisions.  My natural way of thinking might be different from his, so me thinking the way he thinks probably takes me longer than it takes him.  Having him then fail as a result of my limitations would break the character.  Suddenly the game world no longer exists as a coherent reality, having produced an outcome based on nothing that existed within it.