468 réponses à ce sujet

[Dr.Freeman]

1337b0r0m1r wrote...
If someone can survive a free fall from space onto the surface of a planet in nothing but an armor suit, then he/she can surely survive that too. 

Uhm... he actually didn't survive that...

[Slashice]

Davik Kang wrote...

LineHolder wrote...
I'm ok with headcanoning sometimes, though I'm amazed at how much I'm required to do at the end of ME3. 

The way I saw the ME series is that you begin with a background story and try to frame your playthrough, choices and interactions. So a little bit of imagination here and there adds to the excitement. It's like kids with toys. You see a plastic figurine. They see Superman smashing through a planet. 

So, filling in holes here and there with your imagination can be fun but totally coming up with your own scenario for the end? I don't know about that.

The original endings did leave a lot to fill in, but with the EC, what was implied was given visual context too.  I really don't think there's that much to fill in.  Relays gone, or damaged, Reapers gone or pacified, Shepard gone, unless breath scene in which case you have an uplifting final moment.

What could they have added thta would have made it better?  Everyone wants different things.  Some want medal ceremonies.  Others want the Rachni to arrive and squish Harbinger.  Most people want different stuf, but within the parameters of the actual ending(s), there's not much more to add.

Tbh I think this 'headcanon' criticism comes more from the inital disappointment and confusion surrounding the endings.  There isn't really much headcanon-ing to do at all.  I think most want to headcanon a completely different ending to ME3.  But that's not what this thread is about.

Here's what I want about the ending:

ME3 lore: The Citadel is part of the Catalyst. The Catalyst embodies to collective intelligence of all Reapers.
ME1 lore: The Keepers are responsible to answer Sovereign's signal and activate the Citadel relay, letting the Reapers pour into our galaxy. The Keepers controlled by the Citadel. The Protheans created a small mass relay on the Citadel that links to Ilus, to the Conduit. Later, when the Reapers retreated back to dark space (sealing the relay behind them), the surviving Prothean scientist returned to the Citadel, using the Relay (which is only worked one way), and then sabotaged the Keepers so they couldn't respond to Reaper signal. Sovereign had to start an investigation to find out what happened, using indoctrinated agents, the most famous is Saren. He needed Saren to find out what the Conduit is and then pass the main control to him, making Sovereign able to open the Citadel relay manually. Also the Reapers seized control over the Citadel, shutting down the relay network in previous cycles, crippling the Prothean empire aswell, forcing them to fight from planet to planet, system to system.

Questions:

- Why didn't the Catalyst notice the Protheans created a mass relay on the Citadel?
- Why didn't the Catalyst notice the sabotage on the Keepers? (Who's controlled by the Citadel)
- Why didn't the Catalyst (the collective intelligence of all Reapers) notified Sovereign?
- Why didn't the Catalyst (the collective intelligence of all Reapers) helped Sovereign, by passing control to him (according to ME3 he could lift Shepard's body and open the Citadel arms - assuming that he can control the Citadel, as it's part of it)?
- Why is it the Keepers who activate the relay and not the Catalyst (it would be harder to find out that it's an fully evolved AI who controls the relay)?
- Why didn't the Reapers tried to capture the Citadel and seize control over it, shutting down the relay network?
- Why the Catalyst didn't shut down the relay network?
- Who did the Reapers moved the Citadel?
- If they moved the Citadel that assumes they seized control over it - why didn't they shut down the relay network?


That's it for now. That's why I hate the ending, the conclusion and the storyline of ME3 - because it makes the first 2 games pointless. Way too much lorebreaking. Some retcons are ok here and there to make the gameplay more fun, but not rewriting the whole story.I don't care about the lack of happy ending, I want an ending, a conclusion that DOES make sense lorewise.

Sorry for the offtopic but I just had to respond to the ending releated post

Modifié par Slashice, 08 février 2013 - 02:00 .

[Vic7im]

No, but by the way: you exhale a dying breath, not inhale.

Ergo Shepard's alive, period. You can put in ALL the speculations you want, but we're talking about how a human body functions here.

[Davik Kang]

Slashice wrote...
Questions: 

- Why didn't the Catalyst notice the Protheans created a mass relay on the Citadel?
- Why didn't the Catalyst notice the sabotage on the Keepers? (Who's controlled by the Citadel)
- Why didn't the Catalyst (the collective intelligence of all Reapers) notified Sovereign?
- Why didn't the Catalyst (the collective intelligence of all Reapers) helped Sovereign, by passing control to him (according to ME3 he could lift Shepard's body and open the Citadel arms - assuming that he can control the Citadel, as it's part of it)?
- Why is it the Keepers who activate the relay and not the Catalyst (it would be harder to find out that it's an fully evolved AI who controls the relay)?
- Why didn't the Reapers tried to capture the Citadel and seize control over it, shutting down the relay network?
- Why the Catalyst didn't shut down the relay network?
- Who did the Reapers moved the Citadel?
- If they moved the Citadel that assumes they seized control over it - why didn't they shut down the relay network?

Like you said it's OT but I'll answer briefly (my opinions of course):

- all Catalyst stuff could be because Child is lying (can't say much more or thread will be locked)
- they want the relay network open, it is more useful to them open thatn closed (remember that they don't consider defeat to be a realistic scenario)
- if you mean 'how' they moved the Citadel, then yeah I have no idea, it seems bizarre that they can move the hub of the network by using the network, especially as it is said to be sensitive even to alignment issues (I think they say something like this in ME1)

And honestly I also think that, as ME is both sci-fi AND a videogame, holding the subtler things up to intense scrutiny is a bit pointless and not really something most people would bother to engage in unless they just have an axe to grind.  The Catalyst stuff is a separate issue but like I said I think he could be lying.  Again just my opinion.

[Davik Kang]

Vic7im wrote...
No, but by the way: you exhale a dying breath, not inhale.

Ergo Shepard's alive, period. You can put in ALL the speculations you want, but we're talking about how a human body functions here.

As we're back OT here, sorry to sound arrogant but I think this thread needs a little perspective:

Shepard's breathing scene is obviously supposed to show that Shepard survived.  It's an uplifting moment of hope for those who thought s/he died, and especially those who were playing on a later playthrough and had assumed Shep would die in each ending (I know Internet and YouTube generation makes this situation unlikely to actually happen, but still...).

The scene is even called "ShepardLives" or something in the game files.

HOWEVER, the game is supposed to be a personal story, and if someone imagines that Shepard expired shortly after that scene, OF COURSE Bioware will avoid criticising them.  An open ending is clearly made to allow people to imagine certain things about what might have happened, and if a player imagines Shepard died there, why in the world would Bioware make an official statement saying that they're wrong?

This is kind of obvious.  I reiterate what I said before that I don't understand why there is even a discussion here.  Fans of stuff have an unhealthy relationship with making things 'canon' and then using 'canon evidence' to 'prove other people wrong'.  Accept it, players can imagine what they want, you want breath scene = Shep lives then Shep lives.  That's it.

Modifié par Davik Kang, 08 février 2013 - 02:17 .

[Vic7im]

Davik Kang wrote...
This is kind of obvious.  I reiterate what I said before that I don't understand why there is even a discussion here.  Fans of stuff have an unhealthy relationship with making things 'canon' and then using 'canon evidence' to 'prove other people wrong'.  Accept it, players can imagine what they want, you want breath scene = Shep lives then Shep lives.  That's it.

Oh I just stepped in here, don't really know what's this all about :3

[Rashl]

Dr.Freeman wrote...

1337b0r0m1r wrote...
If someone can survive a free fall from space onto the surface of a planet in nothing but an armor suit, then he/she can surely survive that too. 

Uhm... he actually didn't survive that...

stop talking like that !!

He/she did surive !!

;_;

This Ending is really dissapointing to me after all the years of  loyalty

[Jadebaby]

No one should have the interpretation that it's Shepard's last breath. But just because it's not his last dying breath. Doesn't automatically mean that Shepard is going to SURVIVE!!

Shepard is on the Citadel, by him/herself, completely strandard with help who knows how far away..

That's why the ambiguouty doesn't work, it's stupid!

[dreman9999]

iakus wrote...

FlamingBoy wrote...

Chris Priestly wrote...

I never said it was an Easter Egg (at least, I dont remember ever saying that, and if I did I was wrong, because it is not an Easter egg).

The breath scene is there for fans who want to see Shepard's first breath after the end or his last breath after the end. It is up to the interpretation of the player as to which it is.

...............................
the highlighted bit is with out a doubt the most infuriating thing about the ending.
because that basic philosphy is seen throughout the ending and it makes an excurtiatingly painful experience

Yes, thank you.

Bioware just doesn'tseem to get it.

It sound more like you don't want to guess. You want anwser, which is not the point of the ending.

[Tootles FTW]

Vic7im wrote...

No, but by the way: you exhale a dying breath, not inhale.

Ergo Shepard's alive, period. You can put in ALL the speculations you want, but we're talking about how a human body functions here.

I'm sorry, but when several members of Bioware's staff confirm that the breath scene is intended to convey either life OR death, dependent upon player preference, there is no "period". 

If I can think Shepard is alive and you can think he/she's dead and we're both right...um, we're left with Schrodinger's cat in space, essentially.

[Davik Kang]

LineHolder wrote...
Well since this thread is about the breath scene, people want an adequate elaboration on it because all other endings are unambiguous about Sheps fate. I admit that I'd like that too.

Especially when the EC talks about the Geth and Quarians returning to Rannoch and Grunt and Wrex returning to Tuchanka which keeping the state of the relays in mind means that a lit of time has passed. Wouldnt the fate of the savior of the galaxy be determined by these people if he was alive? And if he isnt going to survive or be found what is the point of that scene? That is where you are being asked to headcanon.

Thats what the criticism is about as far as I can tell.

Yeah but what could we have had then?  Shep building a house with Tali?  What if I wanted Shep to go hunt down Kasumi instead?  How about a retirement shack on a beach somewhere?  But my Sheoard would never retire!!  etc. etc.

The straightforward implication of the scene is that Shepard lives on, but if it makes a more poetic ending to your journey that Shepard perished there, knowing the Reapers were finally defeated, or whatever, it's fine.  It's cool.  You can't expect Bioware to come out and say that people who thought that are wrong.  Of course they will dodge questions like this.  Trying to read something into CP's (or anyone else's) comments is entirely pointless.  And he even came into this thread to reiterate that!

Vic7im wrote...
Oh I just stepped in here, don't really know what's this all about :3

Sorry man I re-read my post and it looks like I'm having a go at you but that wasn't intended, I was trying to explain that the thread was pointless because everyone already knows the answers.  It was more that your post was a starting point for what I was saying simply because it was on-topic.

Modifié par Davik Kang, 08 février 2013 - 03:03 .

[crimzontearz]

Tootles FTW wrote...

Vic7im wrote...

No, but by the way: you exhale a dying breath, not inhale.

Ergo Shepard's alive, period. You can put in ALL the speculations you want, but we're talking about how a human body functions here.

I'm sorry, but when several members of Bioware's staff confirm that the breath scene is intended to convey either life OR death, dependent upon player preference, there is no "period". 

If I can think Shepard is alive and you can think he/she's dead and we're both right...um, we're left with Schrodinger's cat in space, essentially.

you DO realize TWO senior devs including a goddamn PROJECT LEAD  said that is the "Shepard survives" ending  before the "it is up to you" crap ensued right? The interpretation bull**** started because nearly no one was picking Mac and Casey's little pet endings and flat out confirming it to everyone post EC would have only accentuated the discrepancy (and pissed off the ITers)

[Obadiah]

In Destroy, you watch Shep get blown up. Why would there be a scene afterwards where the LI doesn't put up the nameplate, and he inhales his last breath? Doesn't make any sense.

Also, if "interpreted" is the official answer, this should be in a stickied FAQ thread - why does this forum not have one?

[1337b0r0m1r]

Dr.Freeman wrote...

1337b0r0m1r wrote...
If someone can survive a free fall from space onto the surface of a planet in nothing but an armor suit, then he/she can surely survive that too. 

Uhm... he actually didn't survive that...

Well, I know this is just semantics, but if someone has a horirble accident, appears to be braindead for a short time but then revived, I would call that "surviving".  
That is not to say that I would call that particular scene in ME2 believable.

[NM_Che56]

Honestly, I think that the "well...it could be a dying breath" is a bit of a cop-out. It suggest that by amplifying the ambiguity of the ending, you can make more people happy (i.e. you don't ****** off people who wanted to die a martyr in the "best" Destroy ending).

I guess the only way we will know for sure is if the writer(s) who crafted this ending came out and publically stated what their intentions were with that scene when they created it.

[CronoDragoon]

Auld Wulf wrote...

Why are gamers such homicidal madmen? I fail to understand.

Regardless of whether or not you agree with the rationale behind choosing Destroy, a failure to even understand the pros of Destroy sounds like you burying your head in the sand. I can come up with excellent justifications for all three endings. If you are unable to do so then I think that's on you. The fact that you classify Destroy as genocide speaks to a willingness to generalize at the expense of specifics.

As for the breath scene's vagueness, I grant that you can interpret it as his dying breath. However, like very many interpretations of works of art, that sounds to me like a meaning you are bringing with you to the art. The evidence to be found within the work itself suggests it's Shepard waking up, as evidenced by game files and by comments by BioWare on why the memorial scene was crafted as it was to reflect the later breath scene.

[CronoDragoon]

Ieldra2 wrote...

As for self-determination, Destroy is indeed the choice that emphasizes this more than the others, but it only applies to organics since there are no more synthetics.

No, it applies to organics and all future synthetics, at the cost of the current synthetics. Note that I don't personally agree with the choice to include destroying all synthetics in Destroy, but I believe that nevertheless this is an important distinction. Destroy is only pro-organic if you gloss over the idea that you are building a future for future synthetic races as well.

[Jadebaby]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Auld Wulf wrote...

Why are gamers such homicidal madmen? I fail to understand.

Regardless of whether or not you agree with the rationale behind choosing Destroy, a failure to even understand the pros of Destroy sounds like you burying your head in the sand. I can come up with excellent justifications for all three endings. If you are unable to do so then I think that's on you. The fact that you classify Destroy as genocide speaks to a willingness to generalize at the expense of specifics.

As for the breath scene's vagueness, I grant that you can interpret it as his dying breath. However, like very many interpretations of works of art, that sounds to me like a meaning you are bringing with you to the art. The evidence to be found within the work itself suggests it's Shepard waking up, as evidenced by game files and by comments by BioWare on why the memorial scene was crafted as it was to reflect the later breath scene.

In politics if you're explaining you're losing, the same is true here.

If what they were trying to do succeeded, you wouldn't be sitting here trying to justify it. And neither would BioWare.

[1337b0r0m1r]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

As for self-determination, Destroy is indeed the choice that emphasizes this more than the others, but it only applies to organics since there are no more synthetics.

No, it applies to organics and all future synthetics, at the cost of the current synthetics. Note that I don't personally agree with the choice to include destroying all synthetics in Destroy, but I believe that nevertheless this is an important distinction. Destroy is only pro-organic if you gloss over the idea that you are building a future for future synthetic races as well.

Why is Destroy considered bad by many? To me it has always been the morally best ending.
 

[Jadebaby]

There is no morally best ending, they're all terrible.

[Steelcan]

Jadebaby wrote...

There is no morally best ending, they're all terrible.

. Nah, dying on the suicide mission is pretty cut and dry.

[Jadebaby]

Strangely enough, that's my favourite ending to the trilogy. How terrible is that?

[Steelcan]

Jadebaby wrote...

Strangely enough, that's my favourite ending to the trilogy. How terrible is that?

. You'd have to ask someone with an active moral compass.  Mine's broken.  I don't give two ****s about killing the geth or EDI

[Silcron]

Steelcan wrote...

Jadebaby wrote...

Strangely enough, that's my favourite ending to the trilogy. How terrible is that?

. You'd have to ask someone with an active moral compass.  Mine's broken.  I don't give two ****s about killing the geth or EDI

-A robot broke!!

-Then fix it. Reprogram it, wield some metal whatever...It's not like we haven't made AIs before.

-....ok.

If it wasn't clear I'd say steelcan and my opinion is phrase 2.