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[RocketManSR2]

wright1978 wrote...

iakus wrote...

During that time between the original endings and EC, I put forth the idea of an ending for Destroy could be

If Shepard died, Hackett giving a speech at Shepard's funeral
If Shepard lived, Shep would be giving a similar speech at Anderson's funeral.

Sadly, Bioware chose not to give any closure at all in that route.  But fortunately MEHEM actually provides something like I envisioned.

Yep would have been good.

So simple, too. Nope, just a big, fat middle finger from BioWare. I would be playing ME3 right now instead of posting in topics like this. I refuse to believe that BioWare just kinda missed all those requests for more closure in the Destroy ending. I know how feedback works with gaming developers, but a sticky was made asking what players would like to see in the EC. Enough requests for high-EMS closure were made that I can only assume BioWare chose to ignore them all. All I could do was shake my head at it all.

[Iakus]

The-Biotic-God wrote...

They can break but they're never shown to. That's the point I'm getting at. Also, if cybernetics are affected by the Crucible then the Quarians should have taken internal damage and Garrus's face should have melted off or something. Not to mention anyone with biotic implants.

In any event, the Normandy is scene leaving the Garden planet. I doubt their destination is anywhere else besides the Citadel.

It's a bleak surrounding because that's ground zero of where the Crucible activated. If any of the events that occured during the Crucible activation were fatal, Shepard shouldn't have taken a breath at all.

Then why did the Catalyst tell Shepard "Even you are partly synthetic"?

So the Normandy's heading for the Citadel. Congrats, That brings Bioware halfway home in terms of an uplifing ending.  If only something similar could have been done for Shepard...

You keep coming right up to the edge of understanding, yet not quite reaching it (not an insult, an observation)  Yes, Shepard is lying in rubble at ground zero of the Crucible discharge.  Badly injured and alone.  that is a bleak picture, even with the breath.  Because all that tells us is the events Shepard went through were not immediately fatal.  

We have no sense of time with that scene.  We don't know how long Shepard was lying there before taking a breath.  We have no way of knowing how long before the Normandy reaches the Sol system.  We don't know how long before rescue and recovery teams will be dispatched, how long before they find Shepard.  We don't know how long Shepard has before succuming to the injuries.  the bleakness of the scene does not encourage happy thoughts here.

[Jadebaby]

The-Biotic-God wrote...
They can break but they're never shown to. That's the point I'm getting at. Also, if cybernetics are affected by the Crucible then the Quarians should have taken internal damage and Garrus's face should have melted off or something. Not to mention anyone with biotic implants.

In any event, the Normandy is scene leaving the Garden planet. I doubt their destination is anywhere else besides the Citadel.

It's a bleak surrounding because that's ground zero of where the Crucible activated. If any of the events that occured during the Crucible activation were fatal, Shepard shouldn't have taken a breath at all.

I don't believe Project Lazarus is plausible, even by in-universe standards. That doesn't mean I'm going to ignore what the game shows me after that event.

Which comes back to this...

iakus wrote...
I understand the ending is so loaded down with space magic it's hard to take any of it seriously, but I'm afraid my brain can only suspend so much disbelief.

Also, Shepard is more synthetic than Quarians and especially biotics.

Modifié par Jadebaby, 10 février 2013 - 09:19 .

[MegaSovereign]

iakus wrote...

The-Biotic-God wrote...

They can break but they're never shown to. That's the point I'm getting at. Also, if cybernetics are affected by the Crucible then the Quarians should have taken internal damage and Garrus's face should have melted off or something. Not to mention anyone with biotic implants.

In any event, the Normandy is scene leaving the Garden planet. I doubt their destination is anywhere else besides the Citadel.

It's a bleak surrounding because that's ground zero of where the Crucible activated. If any of the events that occured during the Crucible activation were fatal, Shepard shouldn't have taken a breath at all.

Then why did the Catalyst tell Shepard "Even you are partly synthetic"?

So the Normandy's heading for the Citadel. Congrats, That brings Bioware halfway home in terms of an uplifing ending.  If only something similar could have been done for Shepard...

You keep coming right up to the edge of understanding, yet not quite reaching it (not an insult, an observation)  Yes, Shepard is lying in rubble at ground zero of the Crucible discharge.  Badly injured and alone.  that is a bleak picture, even with the breath.  Because all that tells us is the events Shepard went through were not immediately fatal.  

We have no sense of time with that scene.  We don't know how long Shepard was lying there before taking a breath.  We have no way of knowing how long before the Normandy reaches the Sol system.  We don't know how long before rescue and recovery teams will be dispatched, how long before they find Shepard.  We don't know how long Shepard has before succuming to the injuries.  the bleakness of the scene does not encourage happy thoughts here.

I'm not reaching "understanding?"

Prove to me that Shepard's cybernetics are blown off. Prove to me that Shepard is stuck under the rubble. Prove to me that Shepard can't communicate with anyone even though right before the Catalyst confrontation he had a comm link with Hackett.

See? Pulling the "we don't know" card is a double edged sword because I can do it too.

I play the violin and I was very involved in my high school's orchestra. When orchestra music crescendos on a high note, that's not "bleak."

[Iakus]

RocketManSR2 wrote...

wright1978 wrote...

iakus wrote...

During that time between the original endings and EC, I put forth the idea of an ending for Destroy could be

If Shepard died, Hackett giving a speech at Shepard's funeral
If Shepard lived, Shep would be giving a similar speech at Anderson's funeral.

Sadly, Bioware chose not to give any closure at all in that route.  But fortunately MEHEM actually provides something like I envisioned.

Yep would have been good.

So simple, too. Nope, just a big, fat middle finger from BioWare. I would be playing ME3 right now instead of posting in topics like this. I refuse to believe that BioWare just kinda missed all those requests for more closure in the Destroy ending. I know how feedback works with gaming developers, but a sticky was made asking what players would like to see in the EC. Enough requests for high-EMS closure were made that I can only assume BioWare chose to ignore them all. All I could do was shake my head at it all.

Heck, I could go even simpler and get the same effect.

On another thread, I suggested at the memorial scene, as the LI hesitates, to have a report come over the intercom that Shepard had been found alive.  Cut to the Normandy lifting off.

Then just replace the breath scene with something like a closup of teh EDI-bot's head, as the eyes flicker momentarilly or something.

Add one line, alter one scene, and you have an uplifting, hopeful end.

[MegaSovereign]

Jadebaby wrote...

Also, Shepard is more synthetic than Quarians and especially biotics.

We don't see synthetic technology exploding. We see synthetic life getting wiped out. This is already established and I don't have to argue this.

[Iakus]

The-Biotic-God wrote...

I'm not reaching "understanding?"

Prove to me that Shepard's cybernetics are blown off. Prove to me that Shepard is stuck under the rubble. Prove to me that Shepard can't communicate with anyone even though right before the Catalyst confrontation he had a comm link with Hackett.

See? Pulling the "we don't know" card is a double edged sword because I can do it too.

I play the violin and I was very involved in my high school's orchestra. When orchestra music crescendos on a high note, that's not "bleak."

No, you are not reaching "understanding" because you do not realize how the ending an be interpreted as bleak. 

But for what it's worth, I don't understand how anyone can think of the scene as upolifting, so there you go.

And I don't have to prove squat.  I'm just (trying) to demonstrate why people find the ending so bleak.  How the intentions of the scene are undermined by other aspects fo the ending.

I can't prove Shepard's cybernetics were damaged or destroyed, I can just pont out that SHepard's armor is melted off, SHep is walking oddly, and walked into an explosion after being warned it would target synthetic life, and Shep is partly synthetic.

I can't prove Shepard is trapped under rubble, I can just point out that Shepard is lying there unmoving, and only after several seconds do we see one short, shallow breath being drawn.

I can't prove Shepard doesn't have com capability.  I can just point out (again) the condition of Shepard's outfit, and that communication with Hackett only seemed to be one-way.  Oh and the entire Sword Fleet evacuated so for an unknown period of time there was no one to comunicate with.  Then there was this enormous explosion Shepard walked into...

This isn't saying "No"  this is saying "This doesn't look good" This is "We're taking 'where there's life, there's hope' to rather extreme lengths"

[whateverman7]

*warning - the post is kinda long*
It wasnt an easter egg. It was a hint that there will be another game (confirmed now, but not at the time).
my opinion:
i think BW intended me3 to be the last 'shepard' ME, but EA disagreed and made them change the game...the reason EA did that: money/business....as much as BW wants to believe the mass effect universe can stand on its own, fans associate mass effect with shepard....it's what happens with video game series.....EA knows this, and they know if BW were to come out with a non-shepard ME game, it's not gonna do as well (less money made), which would not be a smart business move...that's why the marketing done for the game doesnt match what actually happens in the game....the marketing ship of 'this being the end' had already sailed, so they werent gonna change that...plus, selling it as such meant more money....need a recent example of this: halo....there were only suppose to be 3 according to bungie...they marketed it as such...hell, master chief died at the end of 3...but what happened? about a year later, MS announced there would be 3 more games starring master chief and part 4 is in stores now....

more opinion:

as you play the game and take everything into account ( including the breath scene), you shouldve been able to tell this wasnt gonna be the last game...ignore that they've confirmed a me4, and look at what actually happens in the game:

- the last scene is shepard breathing

- you never fought harbinger, the main villian throughout the series

- all the signs in the game point to the reapers trying to indoctrinate you...the dreams, the kid, the voices, the crucible itself (a massive weapon designed by protheans, but can be built by anyone, that can destroy the reapers..that doesnt sound too good to be true? shepard even says so lol), etc....another example: early in the game, james says: does anyone else hear that humming?....all are signs of indoctrination happening...

- to go along with the last point: none of the ending makes sense unless you look at it from the point of indoctrination...and that the majority of the things happening were just in his head...

- not in the game, but a sign: a bw employee saying to keep your saves....why would you need to keep your saves if this was the last game involving shepard?....

....BW/EA havent said anything yet cause it would hurt the shock when they finally announce shepard lives and is still fighting the reapers...but i bet they loved the distain and media the ending got...it showed them how much people are into this series...which means more money in the future....

Modifié par whateverman7, 10 février 2013 - 09:58 .

[crimzontearz]

hackett has comm with Shepard

Shepard outgoing comm works as he was talking to Anderson

Hackett has his location as well

Shepard's upgrades involve first aid and life support upgrades (I spent TONS of platinum on them)

Bioware sucks for their minimalistic approach

[MegaSovereign]

@iakus

The interpretation is not consistent with what is shown.

Shepard's comm link is two way. He was talking with Anderson on his way to the Control panel. You see Shepard taking a deep breath. Not a shallow one. He's not shown to get up because he only just woke up. The Shepard's synthetic parts are not blown off because there's no reason for them to be blown off if the narrative already established that the only things that were damaged in the high EMS ending were artificial intelligences. The aftermath of an explosion isn't a slow, either he died or he didn't and it's shown that he didn't.

I wouldn't be arguing as much if you actually liked that interpretation or even believed in it. I don't think the IT is plausible but hey if people find enjoyment in that then I'm not going to go out of my way strip that enjoyment from them. But it seems like you and a lot of other people on BSN have latched on to the dying breath interpretation as a way to further reject the current endings and to bargain for more. You want me to understand where you're coming from, and I do. If I had talent and I was the project director, I would have done the breath scene differently. The current one is minimalistic and only serves to confirm Shepard's fate. The scene does not bring real closure in that aspect.

Modifié par The-Biotic-God, 10 février 2013 - 10:21 .

[Jadebaby]

The-Biotic-God wrote...
I'm not reaching "understanding?"

Prove to me that Shepard's cybernetics are blown off. Prove to me that Shepard is stuck under the rubble. Prove to me that Shepard can't communicate with anyone even though right before the Catalyst confrontation he had a comm link with Hackett.

See? Pulling the "we don't know" card is a double edged sword because I can do it too.

I play the violin and I was very involved in my high school's orchestra. When orchestra music crescendos on a high note, that's not "bleak."

Prove to me that Shepard can communicate with Hackett?
Prove to me that Shepard isn't stuck under the rubble.

You call the breath scene ending on a high note?

The-Biotic-God wrote...
We don't see synthetic technology exploding. We see synthetic life getting wiped out. This is already established and I don't have to argue this.

You're missing the point. Shepard is more synethetic life than Quarians or Biotics are. That's my argument, I'm not arguing that Shepard should have died because Catalyst said so, because they clearly didn't. At least not straight away like all the others.

[crimzontearz]

most if not all Shepard functions are regulated by VIs not AIs....his cybernetics were not shut down

if all VIs were erased then weapons would have stopped working...ships would have shut down and so on

[MegaSovereign]

Jadebaby wrote...

Prove to me that Shepard can communicate with Hackett?

Because he did already, right before the Catalyst confrontation. Shepard's comm link is still functioning and is two-way because he was using it to talk to Anderson just moments before.

Prove to me that Shepard isn't stuck under the rubble.

Shepard's core body is on top of the rubble. Judging by the scene alone, his body isn't cemented to the rubble...

You call the breath scene ending on a high note?

I meant literally. The music ends on a high note. The choreography of the scene does not suggest a nihilistic interpretation.

You're missing the point. Shepard is more synethetic life than Quarians or Biotics are. That's my argument, I'm not arguing that Shepard should have died because Catalyst said so, because they clearly didn't. At least not straight away like all the others

Shepard is an organic with synthetic implants. AIs are defined as synthetic life.

You don't see anything made of synthetic material blowing up. You only see AIs being affected.

Modifié par The-Biotic-God, 10 février 2013 - 10:45 .

[Dr_Extrem]

hey mega .. what happened to your nick?

[Jadebaby]

The-Biotic-God wrote...

Because he did already, right before the Catalyst confrontation. Shepard's comm link is still functioning and is two-way because he was using it to talk to Anderson just moments before.

But he was speaking to Anderson not Hackett. And when Shepard said "I don't know" at the end to Hackett, Hackett didn't exactly stop and ask "what's wrong?"

Shepard's core body is on top of the rubble. Judging by the scene alone, his body isn't cemented to the rubble...

You can't take that from what little we see, how do you know the camera itself isn't under more rubble? However what we can assertain is that what rubble fell on Shepard was everything around them and above them. *Above* them.

I meant literally. The music ends on a high note. The choreography of the scene does not suggest a nihilistic interpretation.

But everything preceeding it does.

Shepard is an organic with synthetic implants. AIs are defined as synthetic life.

You don't see anything made of synthetic material blowing up. You only see AIs being affected.

Semantics of my point, what I meant was Shepard is more synthetic than any other organic being (that we know of) In fact, Shepard is closer to the Reapers themselves, in this regard, than any other being.
Reapers are synthetic life made up of organic material. Shepard is organic life made up of synthetic material.

The Reapers died in destroy.

[MegaSovereign]

But he was speaking to Anderson not Hackett. And when Shepard said "I don't know" at the end to Hackett, Hackett didn't exactly stop and ask "what's wrong?"

Hackett was speaking to Shepard before entering the decision chamber. I brought up the point about Anderson as way to prove that Shepard still can establish two-way communication.

You can't take that from what little we see, how do you know the camera itself isn't under more rubble? However what we can assertain is that what rubble fell on Shepard was everything around them and above them. *Above* them.

The core of his body is not stuck under rubble. If we can't tell if his limbs are stuck under the rubble then why should we assume they are...?

But everything preceeding it does.

Lol...the scene preceding the breath scene is your LI smiling and looking hopeful...

Semantics of my point, what I meant was Shepard is more synthetic than any other organic being (that we know of) In fact, Shepard is closer to the Reapers themselves, in this regard, than any other being.
Reapers are synthetic life made up of organic material. Shepard is organic life made up of synthetic material.

The Reapers died in destroy.

You're missing the point. High EMS Destroy does not destroy everything made out of synthetic material. It only targets AIs. That's why you see the Normandy intact, but EDI destroyed.

It doesn't matter how much of Shepard is made out of synthetic parts. His brain is 100% organic. Therefore, he is not an AI.

Modifié par The-Biotic-God, 10 février 2013 - 11:21 .

[Indy_S]

And Mega, that is why I believe Destroy is space magic. There's no way it could target a philosophical state of being.

[MegaSovereign]

Indy_S wrote...

And Mega, that is why I believe Destroy is space magic. There's no way it could target a philosophical state of being.

Yes it's highly unrealistic. But that's what happens ingame.

[Reorte]

The-Biotic-God wrote...

But everything preceeding it does.

Lol...the scene preceding the breath scene is your LI smiling and looking hopeful...

Irrelevant. Your LI has no way of knowing anything at all about Shepard's condition. It's shown like that to suggest life but accepting that as any evidence whatsoever requires a suspension of disbelief too far. If there was any rational reason for the LI to think that Shepard is alive they wouldn't be holding the plaque in the first place. When a scene tries to portray a message in contradiction to common sense I don't take its message on board, either logically or emotionally even when the intention of the scene is clear. In those cases it's failed to deliver what it's intended to.

[MegaSovereign]

Reorte wrote...

The-Biotic-God wrote...

But everything preceeding it does.

Lol...the scene preceding the breath scene is your LI smiling and looking hopeful...

Irrelevant. Your LI has no way of knowing anything at all about Shepard's condition. It's shown like that to suggest life but accepting that as any evidence whatsoever requires a suspension of disbelief too far. If there was any rational reason for the LI to think that Shepard is alive they wouldn't be holding the plaque in the first place. When a scene tries to portray a message in contradiction to common sense I don't take its message on board, either logically or emotionally even when the intention of the scene is clear. In those cases it's failed to deliver what it's intended to.

Context. In that instance, we were discussing the choreography of the scene.

But I'll play along with the shift. I can think of some reasons why. Perhaps there was a search team sent at ground zero and they had already found Anderson's corpse but are still looking for Shepard. The LI doesn't confirm his surivival but the fact that she has any hope at all is indicative in itself.

[Belisarius25]

The-Biotic-God wrote...


But I'll play along with the shift. I can think of some reasons why. Perhaps there was a search team sent at ground zero and they had already found Anderson's corpse but are still looking for Shepard. The LI doesn't confirm his surivival but the fact that she has any hope at all is indicative in itself.

And if you *really* want to make it self-referential/cheesy, if your LI is one of the ME1 squadmembers, they're remembering how Shepard was initially presumed dead on the Citadel in ME1 too. 

Modifié par Belisarius25, 10 février 2013 - 11:42 .

[Dr_Extrem]

Reorte wrote...

The-Biotic-God wrote...

But everything preceeding it does.

Lol...the scene preceding the breath scene is your LI smiling and looking hopeful...

Irrelevant. Your LI has no way of knowing anything at all about Shepard's condition. It's shown like that to suggest life but accepting that as any evidence whatsoever requires a suspension of disbelief too far. If there was any rational reason for the LI to think that Shepard is alive they wouldn't be holding the plaque in the first place. When a scene tries to portray a message in contradiction to common sense I don't take its message on board, either logically or emotionally even when the intention of the scene is clear. In those cases it's failed to deliver what it's intended to.

to be fair .. it works but only, if liara is the li ...

but why do they make a nameplate for a memorial wall, when they dont have proof? only confirmed KIAs are on the wall.


the beathe scene still sucks. its no clear yes or no .. the devs just did not have the balls to make a clear statement. in control and synthesis, shep dies - point. in destroy, its up the the player ...

a surviving shepard could ****** off people, who wanted their sheoard to die. the thing is, that shepard shoots the tube knowing, that he/she could (and most likely will) die in the process - shep does it nonetheless. from this pov, shepard is willing to do the ultimate sacrifice - the fact that he/she survives, despite the acceptance of the own death, does not turn the action and will to do it, irrelevant.

Modifié par Dr_Extrem, 10 février 2013 - 11:39 .

[Jadebaby]

The-Biotic-God wrote...
Hackett was speaking to Shepard before entering the decision chamber. I brought up the point about Anderson as way to prove that Shepard still can establish two-way communication..... With Anderson.

Fixed.

The core of his body is not stuck under rubble. If we can't tell if his limbs are stuck under the rubble then why should we assume they are...?

Because they are stuck under rubble...? If you look at the breathe scene you see a good amount of rubble before it pans to his/her chest. Therefore it's not even an argument whether or not Shepard's limbs are stuck. The legs definitely are. And Shepard could barely *walk* before being blasted by that **** (Crucible blast). Do you really think s/he would suddenly have the energy to pull his/herself out of that? LOL

Lol...the scene preceding the breath scene is your LI smiling and looking hopeful...

Irrelevant, what preceeds even that overrides it. BioWare failed irrevocably with the breath scene, therefore throwing even more ambiguity at it isn't going to make it more palatable.. What preceeds the breath scene and the LI scene, is Shepard in the most fragile position they've ever been in [bar ME2 intro]. To shove all that crap at the character while they're in that position is fine, but you have to follow through with it and actually kill the character. To simply add a 20sec clip going "C DeyzFine!" is completely and utterly distasteful, to the viewer and to the narrative that preceeded it.

You're missing the point. High EMS Destroy does not destroy everything made out of synthetic material. It only targets AIs. That's why you see the Normandy intact, but EDI destroyed.

It doesn't matter how much of Shepard is made out of synthetic parts. His brain is 100% organic. Therefore, he is not an AI.

As far as this argument history goes, you might want to look back to when I said that I'm not arguing that Shepard should have died because the Catalyst said so. The only point I was making is that Shepard is more synthetic than a Quarian or a biotic. It is you who has missed that point.

Modifié par Jadebaby, 11 février 2013 - 02:01 .

[Iakus]

The-Biotic-God wrote...

Shepard's comm link is two way. He was talking with Anderson on his way to the Control panel. You see Shepard taking a deep breath. Not a shallow one. He's not shown to get up because he only just woke up. The Shepard's synthetic parts are not blown off because there's no reason for them to be blown off if the narrative already established that the only things that were damaged in the high EMS ending were artificial intelligences. The aftermath of an explosion isn't a slow, either he died or he didn't and it's shown that he didn't.

Shepard is able to communicate with Anderson, but Hackett was distinctly one-way.  Hackett never responded to anything Shepard said.  The breath looked pretty shallow to me.  Shepard's chest barely moved.  Why Shepard doesn't stand is irrelevant.  We do not see Shepard stand, which would have been powerful evidence that Shepard was still in a condition to get off the Citadel.  In addition, the Catalsy explicitly told SHepard "You are partly synthetic" How Shepard is different from quarians and biotics, I don't know.  But the Catalyst seemed to think Shepard was at risk.  Besides, walking into an explosion casrries risk anyway   And as I've said before, not all injuries kill immediately.  Some take hours to finish a person off.  Just ask Thane or Miranda.

I wouldn't be arguing as much if you actually liked that interpretation or even believed in it. I don't think the IT is plausible but hey if people find enjoyment in that then I'm not going to go out of my way strip that enjoyment from them. But it seems like you and a lot of other people on BSN have latched on to the dying breath interpretation as a way to further reject the current endings and to bargain for more. You want me to understand where you're coming from, and I do. If I had talent and I was the project director, I would have done the breath scene differently. The current one is minimalistic and only serves to confirm Shepard's fate. The scene does not bring real closure in that aspect.

I "latched on to" this sying breath interpretation because the endings (all the endings) are so bleak that this one ambiguous, minimalistic breath scene simply doesn't cut it as a 'hopeful" ending.  It may not have been what was intended, but with all the death and destruction that takes place over the course of the ending, it's so very easy to see it as a last breath.

Modifié par iakus, 11 février 2013 - 04:23 .

[Almostfaceman]

iakus wrote...

I "latched on to" this sying breath interpretation because the endings (all the endings) are so bleak that this one ambiguous, minimalistic breath scene simply doesn't cut it as a 'hopeful" ending.  It may not have been what was intended, but with all the death and destruction that takes place over the course of the ending, it's so very easy to see it as a last breath.

Yup.