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[MegaSovereign]

Jadebaby wrote...

Fixed.

That's...really reaching.

Because they are stuck under rubble...? If you look at the breathe scene you see a good amount of rubble before it pans to his/her chest. Therefore it's not even an argument whether or not Shepard's limbs are stuck. The legs definitely are. And Shepard could barely *walk* before being blasted by that **** (Crucible blast). Do you really think s/he would suddenly have the energy to pull his/herself out of that? LOL

In this regard it's a difference of interpretation but I'm taking the approach of "if they didn't show or say it then it didn't happen." All I get to see if Shepard taking a breath. Not that he's immobilized.

Irrelevant, what preceeds even that overrides it. BioWare failed irrevocably with the breath scene, therefore throwing even more ambiguity at it isn't going to make it more palatable.. What preceeds the breath scene and the LI scene, is Shepard in the most fragile position they've ever been in [bar ME2 intro]. To shove all that crap at the character while they're in that position is fine, but you have to follow through with it and actually kill the character. To simply add a 20sec clip going "C DeyzFine!" is completely and utterly distasteful, to the viewer and to the narrative that preceeded it.

You say it's distasteful. I say it's narrative consistency. He's surrounded by rubble because ground zero shouldn't look pretty after a device of that caliber activated.

The breath scene failed to provide character closure but I'm arguing that it didn't fail to confirm his survival since that's basically the only point of such a short scene.

As far as this argument history goes, you might want to look back to when I said that I'm not arguing that Shepard should have died because the Catalyst said so. The only point I was making is that Shepard is more synthetic than a Quarian or a biotic. It is you who has missed that point.

Yes, I know Jade. I know what you said. That's not what I was arguing. I'm saying that the Crucible did not destroy all synthetic material. It targetted AIs like the Reapers, Geth, and EDI. Shepard is not an AI so the Crucible shouldn't have killed him. I really don't know how else I can reword it to get my argument across better.

[MegaSovereign]

iakus wrote...

Shepard is able to communicate with Anderson, but Hackett was distinctly one-way. Hackett never responded to anything Shepard said. The breath looked pretty shallow to me. Shepard's chest barely moved. Why Shepard doesn't stand is irrelevant. We do not see Shepard stand, which would have been powerful evidence that Shepard was still in a condition to get off the Citadel. In addition, the Catalsy explicitly told SHepard "You are partly synthetic" How Shepard is different from quarians and biotics, I don't know. But the Catalyst seemed to think Shepard was at risk. Besides, walking into an explosion casrries risk anyway smilie And as I've said before, not all injuries kill immediately. Some take hours to finish a person off. Just ask Thane or Miranda.

Shepard didn't say anything out loud to Hackett. It was all in his thoughts. Watch the ending again if you don't believe me. You know what else the Catalyst says? That the Crucible will not discriminate. That the Crucible will target and destroy ALL synthetics. High EMS ending suggests that not everything made out of synthetic material was targeted.

I "latched on to" this sying breath interpretation because the endings (all the endings) are so bleak that this one ambiguous, minimalistic breath scene simply doesn't cut it as a 'hopeful" ending. It may not have been what was intended, but with all the death and destruction that takes place over the course of the ending, it's so very easy to see it as a last breath.

You've made up your mind about the breath scene and I really doubt I can change your mind, but protagonist dying doesn't necessarily = bleak ending. Even if you choose to believe that the breath scene means that Shepard is a goner. The literal definition of the word "bleak" is "without hope or encouragement." The narrative presentation of the EC is everything that "bleak" is not, especially with the epilogues which IMO goes a little to far with the back patting.

I don't expect you to accept a 20 second clip as the ending of the entire trilogy. The ending of the game is the whole picture. The galaxy is saved. Most of the characters that you know and love have a future.

Modifié par The-Biotic-God, 11 février 2013 - 04:53 .

[Jadebaby]

The-Biotic-God wrote...

Jadebaby wrote...

Fixed.

That's...really reaching.

Not, it's not really reaching at all. You said it yourself...

I'm taking the approach of "if they didn't show or say it then it didn't happen."

So at least have some consistency in your argument. They didn't show that Shepard can contact Hackett, so s/he can't.

You say it's distasteful. I say it's narrative consistency. He's surrounded by rubble because ground zero shouldn't look pretty after a device of that caliber activated.

All I see is "ground zero", and "device of that caliber".. these two things together should indicate why the breath scene in itself should not exist.

The breath scene failed to provide character closure but I'm arguing that it didn't fail to confirm his survival since that's basically the only point of such a short scene.

It did not confirm his survival because it did not show his survival. It showed he's alive and that he survived the megablast.. Somehow, in some way.. It did not show he survived to whole event. Exposure is a b****.

Modifié par Jadebaby, 11 février 2013 - 05:40 .

[nos_astra]

The-Biotic-God wrote...
You say it's distasteful. I say it's narrative consistency. He's surrounded by rubble because ground zero shouldn't look pretty after a device of that caliber activated.

If there was narrative consistency being at the center of an explosion that big should have damn near vaporized Shepard.

No breaths were ever taken again. 

Modifié par klarabella, 11 février 2013 - 06:59 .

[MegaSovereign]

Jadebaby wrote...

So at least have some consistency in your argument. They didn't show that Shepard can contact Hackett, so s/he can't.

My argument is air tight. I said that Shepard can establish two-way comm link because it's explicitly shown previously that he did with Anderson. It's already established that Hackett knows where Shepard is, so why can't Shepard establish a comm link with him?

All I see is "ground zero", and "device of that caliber".. these two things together should indicate why the breath scene in itself should not exist.

Well, thanks for quote mining. I don't know if it was intentional but you basically changed the context of my post.

It did not confirm his survival because it did not show his survival. It showed he's alive and that he survived the megablast.. Somehow, in some way.. It did not show he survived to whole event. Exposure is a b****.

He did survive the event. The megablast and everything before that is the whole event. Sure you can headcanon him dying but that's analogous to saying that the Normandy could have ran out of fuel after the Garden planet scene and that the Normandy crew is now stranded in space.

[MegaSovereign]

klarabella wrote...

The-Biotic-God wrote...
You say it's distasteful. I say it's narrative consistency. He's surrounded by rubble because ground zero shouldn't look pretty after a device of that caliber activated.

If there was narrative consistency being at the center of an explosion that big should have damn near vaporized Shepard.

No breaths were ever taken again. 

Well it happened. I never implied that the entire ending is perfect and consistent, just that the scenary surrounding Shepard during the breath scene is consistent with what the Citadel should look like after the Crucible activation.

[JDee3]

When he breathes definitely means he's alive and either on the citadel ruins or did a master chief and fell from the sky with some rubble to defend himself and is somewhere on earth

if he were possibly dead the extended cut wouldn't have whatever squad member not putting up his name on the memorial

My statement here only contains things that are for sure, please do not comment with something you think happened. We don't know anything more until BW gives us more.. which I hope they do

Modifié par JDee3, 11 février 2013 - 07:50 .

[Indy_S]

The-Biotic-God wrote...

klarabella wrote...

The-Biotic-God wrote...
You say it's distasteful. I say it's narrative consistency. He's surrounded by rubble because ground zero shouldn't look pretty after a device of that caliber activated.

If there was narrative consistency being at the center of an explosion that big should have damn near vaporized Shepard.

No breaths were ever taken again. 

Well it happened. I never implied that the entire ending is perfect and consistent, just that the scenary surrounding Shepard during the breath scene is consistent with what the Citadel should look like after the Crucible activation.

I see where you're coming from. It happened so that's certain. It might be stupid, but it happened.

[TheRealJayDee]

The-Biotic-God wrote...

Perhaps there was a search team sent at ground zero and they had already found Anderson's corpse but are still looking for Shepard. The LI doesn't confirm his surivival but the fact that she has any hope at all is indicative in itself.

They wouldn't be holding their little ceremony and have the plaques ready if they hadn't spent a lot of time searching, finally given up and declared Shep dead. Which, to me, would mean this scene must take place at least days after the Crucible was fired. So what we are shown in the game would either mean that Shep is left for days in the condotion he's in without being found, in which case I deem his chances of survival pretty much non-existent, or that all of Shep's friends, the Alliance and the whole damn galaxy were pretty quick to give up on the biggest hero ever, which I really don't want to believe. So in the end both options bring us back to

iakus wrote...
I understand the ending is so loaded down with space magic it's hard to take any of it seriously, but I'm afraid my brain can only suspend so much disbelief.

Jadebaby wrote...

Well, that's a tricky question. I haven't played it [MEHEM] straight up in a game yet.. But when I saw it on youtube for the first time I cried.. So I think it might make me pretty damn happier.

Same here.

[FOX216BC]

www.youtube.com/watch 

[MegaSovereign]

They wouldn't be holding their little ceremony and have the plaques ready if they hadn't spent a lot of time searching, finally given up and declared Shep dead. Which, to me, would mean this scene must take place at least days after the Crucible was fired. So what we are shown in the game would either mean that Shep is left for days in the condotion he's in without being found, in which case I deem his chances of survival pretty much non-existent, or that all of Shep's friends, the Alliance and the whole damn galaxy were pretty quick to give up on the biggest hero ever, which I really don't want to believe. So in the end both options bring us back to

Why would the Normandy stay on the garden planet for a couple days if the ship isn't even damaged. In that amount of time they could have gotten to the Citadel and searched for survivors themselves.

I don't know how time consuming the plaque making process is but I really doubt it takes that long to make.

[wright1978]

The only vaguely logical sequence for breath scene and memorial scene is that Normandy is out of communication with earth and fleet. In that scenario they wouldn’t know that Shep has been found alive.

I still find it pretty silly that they would be holding a memorial service, rather than waiting till they found out for sure. It certainly isn’t in any way a fulfilling/rewarding/clarifying scene that provides closure in my opinion.

[Iakus]

The-Biotic-God wrote...

They wouldn't be holding their little ceremony and have the plaques ready if they hadn't spent a lot of time searching, finally given up and declared Shep dead. Which, to me, would mean this scene must take place at least days after the Crucible was fired. So what we are shown in the game would either mean that Shep is left for days in the condotion he's in without being found, in which case I deem his chances of survival pretty much non-existent, or that all of Shep's friends, the Alliance and the whole damn galaxy were pretty quick to give up on the biggest hero ever, which I really don't want to believe. So in the end both options bring us back to

Why would the Normandy stay on the garden planet for a couple days if the ship isn't even damaged. In that amount of time they could have gotten to the Citadel and searched for survivors themselves.

I don't know how time consuming the plaque making process is but I really doubt it takes that long to make.

Which leads to the conclusion that either:

The Normandy was damaged enough to require an extended period of time (a couple of days at least) to repair.  And the damage simply wasn't obvious to the outside observer
or
Shepard's friends and allies (save one) gave up on him almost immediately.

I know whichone I find to be the more likely...

[robdunnhill]

The frustrating thing is the is no correct way to interpret the ending, it is up to us, kinda makes discussion about it redundant. I like to be told a story, if the catalyst is telling the truth I pick synthesis, otherwise destroy. :-) I think control would give Sheppard to much power and he doesn't want to be god IMO :-)

[hermiona15]

[Codename_Code]

Easter egg my butt. its a CLIFFHANGER for people that got the story right and picked destroy. oh, you got the trick ? here, get some punishment.

Priestly, last breath ? really? just reveal IT and end this nonsense.

Modifié par Codename_Code, 02 mars 2013 - 03:46 .

[crimzontearz]

Let us not forget....with EDI gone everything would have to be done manually....I mean Tali is on board but the systems would have to be adjusted to compensate for the loss, after all with EDI offline after palaven the ship was in full tilt mode

[Uncle Jo]

Codename_Code wrote...

Easter egg my butt. its a CLIFFHANGER for people that got the story right and picked destroy. oh, you got the trick ? here, get some punishment.

Priestly, last breath ? really? just reveal IT and end this nonsense.

Using this kind of comments makes you one of those who harmed the theory on the bsn. This comes from someone who really likes the IT. And a(nother) big slap in the face is coming on Tuesday.

Modifié par Uncle Jo, 02 mars 2013 - 04:14 .

[Applepie_Svk]

Uncle Jo wrote...

Codename_Code wrote...

Easter egg my butt. its a CLIFFHANGER for people that got the story right and picked destroy. oh, you got the trick ? here, get some punishment.

Priestly, last breath ? really? just reveal IT and end this nonsense.

Using this kind of comments makes you one of those who harmed the theory on the bsn. This comes from someone who really likes the IT. And a(nother) big slap in the face is coming on Tuesday.

They could always pull out of ther arse with the release of next game Master Chiev 2.0 but it wouldn´t make it better, ITers will be left long ago while the remaining fans get punch to the teeths joke called - LoL ending never happened, as much they could take a reboot and screw ME3 colors.

There is also funny stuff about ending...

- while narrative, logic saying that there is something fishy
- developers and literal form saying that everything is okay

One way or another they are lying.

Modifié par Applepie_Svk, 02 mars 2013 - 05:37 .