294 réponses à ce sujet

[Vilegrim]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Well, I was saying that having a racist character in a role such as companion would in fact make the game more mature, at least in it's handling of this particular theme.

Even if this character just runs around just screaming knife ears at all elves and in general being a belligerent twit.  As such, I'd argue such a character has taken away from the maturity of the game despite satisfying your criteria.

Except that our (or rather our characters) response to a bigot that is needed to get the job done could take the one dimensional slur machine and make serious points.  We have already had a character with a pathological hatred of mages (Fenris) So why not one with that level of hate for elves (or an elf with that level of hatred for humans?) 

[SgtElias]

Vilegrim wrote...

 (or an elf with that level of hatred for humans?) 

Velanna.

Maybe everyone else didn't consider her to be as bad about this issue as I did. It was especially frustrating, as I agreed with a lot of what she said, but she hated humans so much that even agreeing with her started an argument.

I dunno. I haven't been following this thread very closely. Are you asking for a companion (of one sort or another) more prejudiced than Velanna?

[Xilizhra]

SgtElias wrote...

Vilegrim wrote...

 (or an elf with that level of hatred for humans?) 

Velanna.

Maybe everyone else didn't consider her to be as bad about this issue as I did. It was especially frustrating, as I agreed with a lot of what she said, but she hated humans so much that even agreeing with her started an argument.

I dunno. I haven't been following this thread very closely. Are you asking for a companion (of one sort or another) more prejudiced than Velanna?

Velanna gets over it relatively easily, so a lot of people can be more forgiving on this issue.

[Brodoteau]

SgtElias wrote...

[I dunno. I haven't been following this thread very closely. Are you asking for a companion (of one sort or another) [i]more[/i] prejudiced than Velanna?

The point being that we should have companions that express prejudice against elves because, that's actually the normal mindset for most human Thedosians.  As I've said before, wouldn't someone preaching more elf rights be seen as the "odd" one in Thedas?  

[Xilizhra]

Brodoteau wrote...

SgtElias wrote...

[I dunno. I haven't been following this thread very closely. Are you asking for a companion (of one sort or another) [i]more[/i] prejudiced than Velanna?

The point being that we should have companions that express prejudice against elves because, that's actually the normal mindset for most human Thedosians.  As I've said before, wouldn't someone preaching more elf rights be seen as the "odd" one in Thedas?  

Our companions are, by definition, odd. There's no real reason to include bigotry.

[Adanu]

Xilizhra wrote...

Adanu wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Adanu wrote...

Basically, stop treating us with kid gloves. This series is supposedly an M rating, but your competition, the Witcher 2, actually follows through with that.

You people just dance around it and call it 'well presented'.

It's jarring, contradictory, and insulting.

I must admit, it takes something special to be offended by the lack of racism.

It takes something average and inattentive to not care about your lore, so we're even.

It is not a lore failing to have racially tolerant companions.

It is, however, a lore failing to ignore the issue.

Modifié par Adanu, 12 février 2013 - 04:59 .

[Xilizhra]

It's hardly ignored. It's treated negatively, but that's as it should be.

[Adanu]

Xilizhra wrote...

It's hardly ignored. It's treated negatively, but that's as it should be.

Lore wise, it's an accepted part of the culture. When I play a game, I play to immense myself in the game and it's lore, not to have 'feel good' moments about combating racism or whatever.

I hope the devs do less feel good crap and more actually sticking with their lore. It was really stupid the second game how badly they broke their ****.

[SgtElias]

Brodoteau wrote...

The point being that we should have companions that express prejudice against elves because, that's actually the normal mindset for most human Thedosians.  As I've said before, wouldn't someone preaching more elf rights be seen as the "odd" one in Thedas?  

No, I understood that; I suppose I was asking if Velanna's level of intolerence (but coming from a human toward elves) was what you were looking for, or if the "level" she was at wasn't, erm, extreme enough.

I thought she was fairly intolerent and outspoken, and if not for the gift system I don't think she ever would have talked to me, but to others she wasn't really that bad.

I don't think I'm explaining myself very well. Apologies.

[Xilizhra]

Adanu wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

It's hardly ignored. It's treated negatively, but that's as it should be.

Lore wise, it's an accepted part of the culture. When I play a game, I play to immense myself in the game and it's lore, not to have 'feel good' moments about combating racism or whatever.

I hope the devs do less feel good crap and more actually sticking with their lore. It was really stupid the second game how badly they broke their ****.

Then... play as a human noble and ignore the issue? I'm not entirely sure what you want.

[Medhia Nox]

@Xilizhra: What I think someone like Adanu - and myself - want are moments to indulge in cruel racism and explore a darker part of ones own psyche. Likewise - to face off against much more brazen racists - but perhaps not in such easy "You're obviously a bad man." way.

I'll be honest - I'd never end up picking the racist options - but I really want them there, and I want them to contain some benefit. Perhaps a unique companion - or induction into a specific type of society.

That these supposed "medieval" societies mirror modern day social mores - is, for me, largely yawn worthy - it doesn't incite me to outrage, but I would take notice if someone tried for something more than just background noise with these weighty issues.

Note: Actually - racism itself wasn't such a major thing in the Ancient world - it was more "Roman/Greek/Chinese/Indian/etc" or "Barbarian". Certainly a form of prejudice - but it wasn't like: "Oh, yer skins dark - yer a bad man mmmkay?"

For the medieval period it was barbarism on the grounds of religious ideologies.

Racism is actually fairly modern - even during the time of slaves and genocide against the Native Americans - and it began with prejudice toward technological aptitude. "Savages" were the new "Barbarians" - and could be treated with equal parts cruelty and disdain.

Now, as racial prejudice begins to fade (and it has only begun) - I'd hope our next evolution is toward non-sapient creatures and our treatment of the billions of other species on our planet we don't even think about mistreating.

Admittedly - as someone pointed out - it is speciesism to hate elves or dwarves, not really racism.  And since even our modern society hasn't evolved to the point of even really considering other species on our planet - I suppose there's some leeway for a fantasy environment where the issue is much more open (as in, the other species can actually talk).

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 12 février 2013 - 08:35 .

[Xilizhra]

That these supposed "medieval" societies mirror modern day social mores - is, for me, largely yawn worthy - it doesn't incite me to outrage, but I would take notice if someone tried for something more than just background noise with these weighty issues.

Noted, but we have to take into account your yawning vs. the vicious rage that such options could incite. Mild boredom is easily the safest option for Bioware at this rate when unleashing enormous race-based firestorms (and, quite frankly, I don't think there's a good way to present racist protagonists yet; it's not a topic sufficiently removed from its historical roots to be safely examined in the manner of being playable) is the potential alternative.

[mesmerizedish]

Xewaka wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...
Anders treats elves badly.

Elves, or blood mages? The second is patently obvious (poor Merrill) but do you have examples of the first? Honest question.

Fenris.

[Xilizhra]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Xewaka wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...
Anders treats elves badly.

Elves, or blood mages? The second is patently obvious (poor Merrill) but do you have examples of the first? Honest question.

Fenris.

Wait, how is that an example of treating elves badly, as opposed to simple mutual hatred?

[alex90c]

...what?

[Xilizhra]

alex90c wrote...

...what?

Anders treats people who happen to be elves badly without being bigoted against elves specifically.

[Harle Cerulean]

Xilizhra wrote...

alex90c wrote...

...what?

Anders treats people who happen to be elves badly without being bigoted against elves specifically.

One could easily argue that Anders choosing the particular direction of insult he does against Fenris points to some racism - a human calling an elf a beast and a dog in that particular racial climate is a racially charged thing.  Yeah, they don't get along, but there are plenty of ways to hate someone without reducing them to an animal and when the person being reduced is of an oppressed minority, things get a little sticky.

Likewise, since Anders behaves in a very condescending way to Merrill about blood magic and demons at first, treating her like a child who just doesn't know any better, one could likewise argue that he looks down on her because of her race.

Both are debatable, but entirely possible to interpret as evidence that Anders is at least subconciously racist!

Modifié par Harle Cerulean, 13 février 2013 - 01:36 .

[jillabender]

Xilizhra wrote...

Actions do not take place in vacuums. If we assume that the humans started the violence, it was still the sudden and masive influx of elves that caused tensions to flare up whereas a slow increase of both the Alienage population and its living conditions plus human gratitude due to the role the CE Warden had ending the Blight could have averted it entirely. Were the elves doing something "bad" by seeking a better life under the first elven Bann? Not really but they still bear some of the blame.

It's not a matter of blame, because the elves are blameless in that they've not taken any immoral actions. What they did perhaps put in place altered circumstances that better accommodated human rioting than may have otherwise been the case, but it's not an issue of blame, any more than one woman's bad taste in men is a matter of blame for being date-raped.

However, I really fail to comprehend why we're even arguing about this, when the ending slides are not only noncanon, but are in fact contradicted in Awakening, when the CE Warden is now Arl of Amaranthine.

I'd only say that if the slide said "The Warden did good and the Elves in the Alienage rejoiced, but the humans rioted at the new rights Elves received."

Then there'd be no hint as to the Elves having done something and it'd be entirely the humans' fault.

It is entirely the humans' fault. All blame for an act of violence rests on the perpetrator, except in very special circumstances of deliberate provocation, which this was not, nor was their any indication of it.

Thank you Xilizhra, for expressing that so well - I completely agree.

[Xilizhra]

Harle Cerulean wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

alex90c wrote...

...what?

Anders treats people who happen to be elves badly without being bigoted against elves specifically.

One could easily argue that Anders choosing the particular direction of insult he does against Fenris points to some racism - a human calling an elf a beast and a dog in that particular racial climate is a racially charged thing.  Yeah, they don't get along, but there are plenty of ways to hate someone without reducing them to an animal and when the person being reduced is of an oppressed minority, things get a little sticky.

Likewise, since Anders behaves in a very condescending way to Merrill about blood magic and demons at first, treating her like a child who just doesn't know any better, one could likewise argue that he looks down on her because of her race.

Both are debatable, but entirely possible to interpret as evidence that Anders is at least subconciously racist!

I highly disagree that Anders would have said anything else to Fenris had Fenris been human; he's frankly monomaniacal, and only cares about one issue. I don't think he sees race as a significant factor, and I have my doubts that it influenced him with Merrill as well.

Thank you Xilizhra, for expressing that so well - I completely agree.

My pleasure.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 13 février 2013 - 01:41 .

[Harle Cerulean]

Xilizhra wrote...

Harle Cerulean wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

alex90c wrote...

...what?

Anders treats people who happen to be elves badly without being bigoted against elves specifically.

One could easily argue that Anders choosing the particular direction of insult he does against Fenris points to some racism - a human calling an elf a beast and a dog in that particular racial climate is a racially charged thing.  Yeah, they don't get along, but there are plenty of ways to hate someone without reducing them to an animal and when the person being reduced is of an oppressed minority, things get a little sticky.

Likewise, since Anders behaves in a very condescending way to Merrill about blood magic and demons at first, treating her like a child who just doesn't know any better, one could likewise argue that he looks down on her because of her race.

Both are debatable, but entirely possible to interpret as evidence that Anders is at least subconciously racist!

I highly disagree that Anders would have said anything else to Fenris had Fenris been human; he's frankly monomaniacal, and only cares about one issue. I don't think he sees race as a significant factor, and I have my doubts that it influenced him with Merrill as well.

It's really an interpretation issue.  I feel he is, in part because I think it would be very unusual for a human in Thedas to not be at least slightly racist, much as it's very difficult for a white person in my culture to completely avoid being racist - it simply pervades the culture to such an extent that it pretty much takes concious effort not to be.  So my take is that those are ways Anders' unconscious culturally-ingrained racism manifests. As a mage, he does have less of that enculturation than many humans would, but he came to the Tower fairly late, as I recall, and we do see signs that even in the Tower, there's race friction, so he certainly could have picked it up.

And you interpret him differently, and that's fine too!  I'm hardly going to insist my interpretation is One True Canon and that all must agree with me.  

[llandwynwyn]

Xilizhra wrote...

I highly disagree that Anders would have said anything else to Fenris had Fenris been human; he's frankly monomaniacal, and only cares about one issue. I don't think he sees race as a significant factor, and I have my doubts that it influenced him with Merrill as well.

That's the thing, Fenris isn't human. Plus, he was an ex-slave. Calling an ex elf slave a beast and a dog says a lot about Anders.

[Fast Jimmy]

Delete

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 13 février 2013 - 01:59 .

[Adanu]

Xilizhra wrote...

Adanu wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

It's hardly ignored. It's treated negatively, but that's as it should be.

Lore wise, it's an accepted part of the culture. When I play a game, I play to immense myself in the game and it's lore, not to have 'feel good' moments about combating racism or whatever.

I hope the devs do less feel good crap and more actually sticking with their lore. It was really stupid the second game how badly they broke their ****.

Then... play as a human noble and ignore the issue? I'm not entirely sure what you want.

I want more Velanna type characters on both ends of the spectrum. It should be up to the player to accept or work to persuade them otherwise.

There is a reason why racism exists in this setting.

[Medhia Nox]

@Xilizhra: While I wouldn't say it's a deep study of the concept - even the fact that you could be a slaver in Fallout 2 was - I felt - a disturbing notion.

You might not have played it - but look at the Batarians of the Mass Effect series - people (and I mean players) feel absolutely justified in their prejudice toward them and that's supposed to be science fiction where people are more morally advanced (not in my view of the fiction of science - but certainly in the majority view).

I'd be very interested if Bioware put in some valid reasons for humans to have warred against elves prior to their defeat - I'd like the waters muddied.

Another fascinating thing - to me - is the amount of people raging over a fictional race, and those same people probably live on a continent where technologically superior humans held genocidal warfare against 500 nations of natives.

Those people - btw - are still living in captivity. They're called reservations and not Alienages.

It actually does upset me how much empathy "elves" inspire - when people couldn't be bothered in real life.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 13 février 2013 - 04:09 .