294 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

Harle Cerulean wrote...

Likewise, since Anders behaves in a very condescending way to Merrill about blood magic and demons at first, treating her like a child who just doesn't know any better, one could likewise argue that he looks down on her because of her race. 

I think that has more to due with Anders' refusal to treat Merrill's religious views with any merit - he disregards her Dalish views that the denizens of the Fade (the Beyond) are simply spirits, and tries to push his religiously Andrastian views that they are Spirits and Demons - the First Children of the Maker. He refuses to consider the idea that a Dalish elf isn't likely to share the same views with the Chantry, and that it makes little sense for the People to believe in Demons (as classified by the Chantry) because the Dalish aren't likely to see them as Spirits who turned their back on the Maker and now embody different sins.

As Merrill explains, the denizens of the Fade are all different. She even recognizes that some denizens of the Fade embody certain traits, but simply doesn't think they are the Children of the Maker (ergo: she doesn't share the religious views of the Andrastians in Spirits and Demons). If Merrill was an Andrastian elf from the Alienage whose religious views didn't contradict his, it would be an entirely different matter.

His views on blood magic match the Chantry dogma on blood magic as well. If Hawke is in a romance with Merrill, jealousy would be another factor in Anders' antagonistic attitude towards her.

[Xilizhra]

@Xilizhra: While I wouldn't say it's a deep study of the concept - even the fact that you could be a slaver in Fallout 2 was - I felt - a disturbing notion.

I find your grammar confusing.

You might not have played it - but look at the Batarians of the Mass Effect series - people (and I mean players) feel absolutely justified in their prejudice toward them and that's supposed to be science fiction where people are more morally advanced (not in my view of the fiction of science - but certainly in the majority view).

See the icons, I have. Also, I personally don't hold to anti-batarian prejudice either.

I'd be very interested if Bioware put in some valid reasons for humans to have warred against elves prior to their defeat - I'd like the waters muddied.

The people arguing for this already are damned annoying enough; I don't want to give them more ammunition.

Another fascinating thing - to me - is the amount of people raging over a fictional race, and those same people probably live on a continent where technologically superior humans held genocidal warfare against 500 nations of natives.

Those people - btw - are still living in captivity. They're called reservations and not Alienages.

It actually does upset me how much empathy "elves" inspire - when people couldn't be bothered in real life.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that's voluntary, because they don't want to be subsumed into the United States government, and they don't cover enough contiguous territory to form a single nation-state, even if they wanted to. Though there's been relatively recent success in that area with Nunavut, so perhaps there's hope for the future.

[Sutekh]

Medhia Nox wrote...

I'd be very interested if Bioware put in some valid reasons for humans to have warred against elves prior to their defeat - I'd like the waters muddied.

They did. With codices and other sources contradicting each others to the point where it's actually impossible to know for sure where the Truth lies, I think the waters are muddied enough.

Another fascinating thing - to me - is the amount of people raging over a fictional race, and those same people probably live on a continent where technologically superior humans held genocidal warfare against 500 nations of natives.

That's quite a big assumption there. We Europeans do have internet access too, you know, and we bicker just the same  (and I'm pretty sure this applies to other continents too. Earth's a big place).

It actually does upset me how much empathy "elves" inspire - when people couldn't be bothered in real life.

On the same note, you have no way to know that the people empathizing with elves - whatever their nationality - don't bother. This is a game forum, so we argue over the game's lore - especially since RL political discussions are a no-no. 

[Eleinehmm]

Sutekh wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

I'd be very interested if Bioware put in some valid reasons for humans to have warred against elves prior to their defeat - I'd like the waters muddied.

They did. With codices and other sources contradicting each others to the point where it's actually impossible to know for sure where the Truth lies, I think the waters are muddied enough.

Another fascinating thing - to me - is the amount of people raging over a fictional race, and those same people probably live on a continent where technologically superior humans held genocidal warfare against 500 nations of natives.

That's quite a big assumption there. We Europeans do have internet access too, you know, and we bicker just the same  (and I'm pretty sure this applies to other continents too. Earth's a big place).

It actually does upset me how much empathy "elves" inspire - when people couldn't be bothered in real life.

On the same note, you have no way to know that the people empathizing with elves - whatever their nationality - don't bother. This is a game forum, so we argue over the game's lore - especially since RL political discussions are a no-no. 

Oh please, we don't have internets in the The Eastern Hemisphere. 

And yes, I don't see the way you can check my  (or anyone else's) minority status,  I am really wary of  people who think that  their majority group is the only one here, and all of the other groups (Who, just like me, don't have any internet access, or so I'd guess ) need them to speak for the mistreated. It's a little bit messianic, so to speak.

Anyways I would like to get more info on the old elven history too, it's time to get at least some of the questions answered.

Modifié par Eleinehmm, 13 février 2013 - 08:53 .

[KiwiQuiche]

I admit, I do find it extremely amusing when some people complain about the "lack of grey" during the war with the Dales-humans are displayed as religious loonies, attacking and pretty much enslaving an entire race due to the fact elves believed in different gods.

News flash-not every war is 'grey'. Some are as simple as "I don't like you" "I want your stuff" and "how dare you not believe in our god, we'll kill all you sinners" the last being the human vs Elf conflict that lead to the destruction of the Dales and elves being treated like lepers. Hell, in real life the majority of our wars are over who has the best imaginary friend, so having it in DA verse is completely understandable.

That being said, I'm fine with having a racist companion-as long as I can call them out on their bullsh!t, like I was able to do with Fenris, Merril and Anders in DA2. I could agree "mages suck" "blood magic is okay" or "mages are okay blood mages no no" or I could verbally berate them. I'm fine with having a companion with extreme racial views, as long as the PC can challenge them over it.

[Goneaviking]

Brodoteau wrote...

 Thedas is supposed to be pretty stratified in the way the society is organized.  Elves are supposed to viewed as sub-human.  And yet, our companions have been a pretty enlightened bunch.  Despite Sten making a few comments, and Sebastien trying to move people to the Maker, there haven't really been a lot of intolerant companions in the DA universe.  

Not that this is a bad thing.  But would you like to have a companion that has "normal" Thedosian views of elves? 

I know that in ME, people were upset with Ashley's attitudes towards the aliens, but that helped to flesh out the character.  There are still people that are upset over Keldorn killing Viconia in BG2.  But that helped to flesh out the setting and the character. 

So what say you, more "Ashleys" in DA3?  

I think spending 30 hours running around with an overtly bigoted sidekick would get tedious long before the mid-point. But I find the more subtle racism that Leliana displays in DAO more interesting in that it only comes out in specific contexts, and she doesn't even perceive it as derogatory.

After all who wouldn't want to be seen as someone that'd make for a highly valued servant?

I mean other than from anyone who thinks that they should be regarded as an equal. It's like that stereotype about asians being good at math, it's not an overtly offensive thing to assume about someone, but making that assumption about someone simply because of their parentage certainly isn't a sign you value their individuality.

Personally, I found Fenris and Anders equally tiring for their explicitly anti-mage/anti-chantry speech which seemed to ever-present when I was playing. I realize it wasn't all they spoke about, but because it annoyed me it stuck out; I also realise they both had credible reasons for their positions but an intolerant jerk doesn't become something else just because he's got a good reason.

The Ashley example is interesting to me however, because the only times I've noted her alleged anti-alien bias is when she's made the observation that other species' governments don't necessarily coincide with humanity's - and she's proven right in every instalment of the franchise.


TL,DR Companions have a lot of screentime and so whatever bigotries they have should generally be implied, rather than advertised. Also, Ashley is the best companion in ME1&3.

[MrCrabby]

Ninja Stan wrote...

mickey111 wrote...

Bioware is anti-discrimination.

I would say this. It is probably assumed that player characters aren't out to deliberately anger their companions.

Bioware doesn't want any of their elven customers writing in to complain.

Keldorn in Baldur's Gate II hated Viconia based soley on her race. There seems to be a fear of making characters who are not easily put in the good or evil category, but this is hardly just a Bioware problem. I personally would like characters that have complex personalities and flaws, but at this point I'll be happy if Bioware can make a romance that doesn't end after you screw.

Bioware has had racist characters before, but this was the old Bioware that didn't design games based on attempting to appeal to twitch gamers.

[Medhia Nox]

@Xilizhra: So you're saying they should "want" to submit to their conquerors - and it's their fault if they can't?

@to Europeans who feel the need to be represented: I'm not a European - so I wouldn't be speaking about an experience I've had with any Europeans. As it is - it was arrogant European nations that were a catalyst for the destruction of the peoples on two continents.

Yes - it's a game forum. It simply interests me how much energy people put into the "idea" of prejudice - but I'm confident they not only don't go out and fight real world prejudice, but probably promote it. (Not unlike some forum goers assumptions about my intent as an American who thinks only Americans use the internet. It wasn't the case - but it certainly seems to be a prejudice.)

====

On another note - could it not be said that it is biologically irresponsible to allow other sapient species to co-exist? We would compete for resources - but could not breed with them (I'm not sure about half-elves in Dragon Age)

Suddenly - I understand the Emperor of Man so much better! ((Warhammer 40K reference for those who aren't sure)).

[Xilizhra]

@Xilizhra: So you're saying they should "want" to submit to their conquerors - and it's their fault if they can't?

No, and I don't even know how it was physically possible to read that from my post

[Harle Cerulean]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Xilizhra: So you're saying they should "want" to submit to their conquerors - and it's their fault if they can't?

@to Europeans who feel the need to be represented: I'm not a European - so I wouldn't be speaking about an experience I've had with any Europeans. As it is - it was arrogant European nations that were a catalyst for the destruction of the peoples on two continents.

Yes - it's a game forum. It simply interests me how much energy people put into the "idea" of prejudice - but I'm confident they not only don't go out and fight real world prejudice, but probably promote it. (Not unlike some forum goers assumptions about my intent as an American who thinks only Americans use the internet. It wasn't the case - but it certainly seems to be a prejudice.)

Why would you be confident about that?  You don't know us.  We don't have social justice credentials (or a lack of having 'earned' them) displayed on our profiles.  I don't even use the same online name here that I use in most places online, and it's definitely not my real name, so your only basis for this 'confidence' can be flat-out assumption, and, like most assumptions, it is both incorrect and insulting.

You want to ride a high horse and pretend we're hypocrites, you do that, but all it does it make you look like an ass and an idiot.

[Dasher1010]

The problem is that an elf-hating party member wouldn't be likeable. He'd just come across as a whiny, entitled arrogant jerk.

[SgtElias]

Dasher1010 wrote...

The problem is that an elf-hating party member wouldn't be likeable. He'd just come across as a whiny, entitled arrogant jerk.

That's the problem I'm having with this idea. No matter how awesome such a companion might end up being in every other aspect of their personality, or how much my PC might agree with every other opinion they expressed, I would never, ever be able to have them in my party. On, really, any player character I might make.

That's not to say that because I would never use a racist companion that they shouldn't exist; I guess I just assume (perhaps incorrectly) that others would strongly feel the same.

Modifié par SgtElias, 13 février 2013 - 04:21 .

[Sutekh]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@to Europeans who feel the need to be represented:

Nicely condescending, that.

I'm not a European - so I wouldn't be speaking about an experience I've had with any Europeans. As it is - it was arrogant European nations that were a catalyst for the destruction of the peoples on two continents.

Yeah, let's not go there, shall we? All nations that were predominant at one time have a share of responsibility in oppressing someone else, no matter on which continent. Trying to sling the blame across the pond is pointless, no matter which way.

Besides, that wasn't my point at all. I just found it funny that you consider that the people "raging" about elves must be Americans by default, and consequently not allowed to (or should feel bad about doing so) because of Native Americans, while some of us are not (this isn't the only problem I see with that argument too). It wasn't a comment about the arrogance or fault of a whole continent, people or nation, so no need for defensiveness.

Yes - it's a game forum. It simply interests me how much energy people put into the "idea" of prejudice - but I'm confident they not only don't go out and fight real world prejudice, but probably promote it. (Not unlike some forum goers assumptions about my intent as an American who thinks only Americans use the internet. It wasn't the case - but it certainly seems to be a prejudice.)

Again, you assume and generalize a lot about people you know absolutely nothing about, which, mind you, is a tiny bit insulting. But I won't convince you, nor do I have to.

The "Internet connection" was a joke. Hence the smiley. If you really believe some of us think there are Americans who believe we don't have Internet access, then I really don't know what to say. Anyway, this wasn't directed towards Americans in general, but to you in particular, as a forum poster, so I don't see the prejudice here. Just don't try and start an intercontinental flamewar, it will lead to absolutely nothing remotely constructive.

On topic:

On another note - could it not be said that it is biologically irresponsible to allow other sapient species to co-exist? We would compete for resources - but could not breed with them (I'm not sure about half-elves in Dragon Age)

Many anthropologists would disagree with you. Regardless and like many if not all fantasy settings, DA is not science based. And there are half-elves. Lots of them (Fenryel, Slim Couldry and probably Alistair being the most famous examples).

[Beerfish]

Merrill and I wiped out her entire clan, that's' treating them kinda bad.

[Eleinehmm]

Medhia Nox wrote...


Yes - it's a game forum. It simply interests me how much energy people put into the "idea" of prejudice - but I'm confident they not only don't go out and fight real world prejudice, but probably promote it.

Ladies and Gents, we have a  poster with psychic powers here. You do know that  European countries has their own minorities and prejudices don't  you ? 
Oh, well I guess I have to go and promote even more prejudice  against me right now. Good to know I don't fight it and stuff.

[Wulfram]

If I really wanted to examine Thedosian anti-elvish racism with a companion, I'd probably do it with someone with an elvish parent. One who actually knows he's half-elvish, but was raise human.

He might resent the elves for rejecting him - he is, after all a human - as well as resenting the humans for looking down on his elvish half.

[Eleinehmm]

Wulfram wrote...

If I really wanted to examine Thedosian anti-elvish racism with a companion, I'd probably do it with someone with an elvish parent. One who actually knows he's half-elvish, but was raise human.

He might resent the elves for rejecting him - he is, after all a human - as well as resenting the humans for looking down on his elvish half.

Sounds very promising, but it's very hard to handle properly.

[Big I]

Dasher1010 wrote...
The problem is that an elf-hating party member wouldn't be likeable. He'd just come across as a whiny, entitled arrogant jerk.

This. Party members are designed so that the player is willing to invest time and interest in them. Because racism is such a huge taboo for most people, a party member who is overtly racist will be less likely to do that. An overtly racist party member is bad design.


That said, most DA characters are prejudiced in one way or another (e.g. Shale against non-golems, Sten against non-qunari, etc).

[TEWR]

Dasher1010 wrote...

The problem is that an elf-hating party member wouldn't be likeable. He'd just come across as a whiny, entitled arrogant jerk.

Depends, really. Shinon, Soren, Jill and Lethe from Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance were pretty damn racist characters towards the different races, but were also really likable.

Soren and Jill the most.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 15 février 2013 - 02:04 .

[CrystaJ]

I hate elves myself so I'd totally be down with it.

This is a joke, but I do dislike the Tolkien version. Impossibly beautiful and elitist pricks.