294 réponses à ce sujet

[Reznore57]

I'm not sure it'd be interesting to have a companion racist towards elves.
IFor now it's kind of a status quo for the elven people...They lost everything , they're at the bottom of human society , or frolicking in the wood.
There's just this sort of "quiet" racism , like things are just fine the way they are.

We could have seen more racism in Kirkwall , with all the jobless Fereldan people ,but it seems that elves suck so much that actually nobody cared or considered them a threat .

I just think elves need to start challenging human society a bit more , then the whole question may become more exciting and be more open to debate .
I mean elves have lots of anger/reason to fuel their racism , for human it's pretty much like hating or laughing at homeless people .

[Harle Cerulean]

I would point out that Leliana buys into the Orlesian view of elves as particularly pretty and talented animals, as an elven Warden can point out. She seems taken aback by realizing that, but it's still racist.

That said, I too have wondered at the lack of much visible racism against elves. We're told it's ever-present, but all we really see is Vaughn (who could have treated poor humans exactly the same way and gotten away with it because he's a noble, so the racism angle doesn't come across there so much as the "abuse of power" angle), the mistreatment of kitchen elves in the Cousland origin, Leliana's conditioned racism that she's so very contrite about the second you call her on it (which rarely actually happens), and Aveline's refusal to investigate the rape of that elven girl by one of her guards, while viciously pursuing the girl's brothers for enacting their own justice, even to the point of being willing to enrage an already-angry Arishok over it. But again, that could be as much 'police solidarity' as racism - police forces neglecting to enforce justice on their own members is a far-too-common problem even in our society, without bringing race into it. (It's just even worse when race is a factor.) As well, arguably, Anders' initial condescension towards Merrill, treating her like a child who doesn't know any better, as well as his reduction of Fenris to a "beast" and a "wild dog" could point to him being at least somewhat racist, if unconsciously. (There's also Alistair's being unable to marry an elven Warden, but he also can't marry a dwarven Warden or a human mage Warden, so it's clearly not just racism against elves there.)

And on the one hand, it's kind of nice, because having to deal with racist ****s isn't fun, and it's nice to have companions who are likable. It's hard to like a racist. But on the other hand, it's a severe case of being told something, and then not really shown it. Certain characters make sense - Morrigan was raised away from regular human society, so she wouldn't have the same inherent racism, for example. But for something that's supposedly so inherent to the society, so ingrained and that has gone on for so long, it's tellingly absent. There are no "Knife Ears Not Allowed" signs on the Hightown shops, etc.

At the same time, as a woman, I know I don't want to see constant reminders of sexism in the games - I deal with it in real life quite enough, and I have no desire to have to put up with that kind of bull**** when I'm trying to have fun. While there are no real-life elves, unlike the mage conflict, racism against elves has direct corollaries to racism in real life, and I wouldn't be surprised if the feelings of PoC players towards overt racism in the games would be, generally, fairly similar to my feelings towards sexism in the games. (Which, might I add, despite the character creator in DA:O claiming men and women are equal in Thedosian society, was present in a LOT of ways in DA:O. Less so in DA2, but still some things that made my skin crawl, like how Anders treats an f!Hawke vs an m!Hawke.)

It's a tricky question. It theoretically exists in the setting, but it's uncomfortable to show for a lot of people, in ways that aren't necessarily the good "makes you think" sort of discomfort, but "unpleasant reminders" uncomfortable. Technically, we should see it, and by telling us it's there but not showing it, the setting and worldbuilding is weaker. But is that worth making players deal with it?

[Mistress9Nine]

I would say that this could go completely well. like having an elven footman, who you treat like a servant or like a companion at the same time. Your teammates could make comments, etc. It'd be really good setting wise to see the plight of the elves fleshed out.

Also since we'll be visiting the imperium, I'm counting on some cool slave stuff.

[Conduit0]

nightscrawl wrote...

Conduit0 wrote...

You mean kind of like Fenris? Yeah, I'd rather avoid a Fenris 2.0.

Fenris doesn't hate all mages, he is distrustful of them as a group. This is based not just on his potential relationship with Hawke, but on his own words about mages.

I will say that this is one reason I think the friendship plays out better than a rival one with Fenris. You can show total support for mages, blood magic, contempt for him personally, and support slavery, get to full rivalry, and yet the game doesn't really supply us with a reason for him to be loyal other than our help with Danarius. If that is really all it takes for Fenris, that your help with Danarius is the overriding factor, and it was written that way intentionally, then that is certainly a testament to his character and his own ideas of loyalty... which, I'll admit, I had never thought of until this instant.

I don't know, I always imagained Fenris' loyality to my mage Hawke was one part Hawke saved his life and one part Hawke could kick his ass six ways to Sunday if he stepped out of line.

But really what I meant about not wanting a Fenris 2.0 is not wanting another character that is obnoxiously outspoken about their dislike of a certain group.  Especially since I know they won't give me the option to do this every time they say something inappropriate.

[Han Shot First]

XX-Pyro wrote...

Well Leliana didn't like Morrigan much but that's cause that particular Warden was a rascal. Honestly though I'm not quite sure if I'd enjoy this or not, I suppose I'd have to see how it plays out in game! Not against it though.

Morrigan was human.

[Wulfram]

Companions we're generally supposed to be able to sympathise with, and I think it would be almost impossible to write it so that audience would keep any sympathy with someone who was really racist against elves. Not if they were doing this simply because it was the societal norm - you could maybe do it if it was because, say, Dalish killed their parents, but that would be a different story.

[DarthLaxian]

MisterJB wrote...

Because most of our companions are decent-ish people?

Edit: What about Vellana? She was very anti-human.

indeed

i liked her because of it (because it fit her background-story)

but:

i would not want many racist characters (particularly companions) because i HATE racism with a passion (i would go as far as to quit a high paying job or leave a country, if it was a racist environment (like say ****-Germany back in the 1930s and 1940s))

yes, one or two (depending on their background) would be ok (but not blantantly racist as in bullying racist asholes - more of low key sentiments that you can pick up)...

as for backgrounds:

a tevinter magister (i hope we get one of those - in female, too (i would want a kind of magistress "morrigan 2.0"-character, that is not ****y for ****yness (or defensive) but headstrong and gives as good as she gets) would probably be a little racist (against all non mages in this case...and maybe even against elves?..)

same for an orlesian chevalier (he/she is used to elven servants and has probably seldomly seen independent elves like the Dalish) or an orlesian grey warden?

well that's about it, i just do not want it to be blatantly obvious (maybe the character could express discomfort if we deal with the dalish? or the dwarfs if he/she is a racist?)

greetings LAX
ps: maybe this racism could be shown as a source of conflict among companions? (you have to make peace or if you acted badly before: choose a side?)

[Danny Boy 7]

Imo the way it's been dealt with has been pretty good, especially since it's a bit more muted except when it needs to be obvious to us like in the City Elf origin. As a PoC I didn't even really notice that anybody, particularly nan was racist in the Human Noble origin until it was pointed out to me. I mean it seemed to be an issue of nan rather than a representation of the Couslands as a whole. Otherwise they were the perfect family that seemed progressive and tolerant.

As Harle Cerulean said it's not fun to deal with this stuff in games, not that I'm completely asking for it's removal, but it's hard to make a racist character likable. They have to either be that funny racist, where it's just sort of the culture i.e. the Dalish or it's done in a way that you hate to love this guy.

Edit: Imho I think we need a clear definition of whether we want prejudice vs. racism. This is really my own personal definition so I don't expect it to work for everyone/for everyone to agree with it, but hear me out.

Racism is a total abhorrence for a person of a different race i.e. elves/dwarves and the belief that they are sub-human, less than human or that we have some sort of superiority to them. This person is like Vaughan who rapes, muders, imprisones etc because he thinks he can.

Prejudice from a character is like Ashley, Nan, Velanna etc. They may have understandable reasons for their comments, but they are not opposed to the inclusion of that person, nor do they think that they are in some way superior to them. What they say is imflammatory and a bit bigoted, but can be written off as old ways die hard, in the form of Nan or a "justified" inbred distrust in the form of Ashley and Velanna. They personally have understandable reasons for their contempt, but they aren't exactly anti-alien/anti-human so much as they are pro themselves. I don't think what they say or maybe even do is right but imo their growth/actions as characters to me anyway out do the negatives of their characters. Except when Ashley makes those smug, clearly bullying comments towards Liara who has been nothing if not friendly.

Modifié par Danny Boy 7, 08 février 2013 - 11:04 .

[Daissran]

Racist/sexist/bigoted companion? No, thank you. I despise the idea of having to endure, help or travel with a companion who embodies things that disgust me. Especially when having to deal with these things in real life; it's exhausting and destroys the sense of escapism.

...On the other, an enemy NPC with these traits, who the PC would later have to end up battling could maybe possibly work. Ultimately, you want an NPC who is clearly in the wrong. Not someone who you have to sympathise with.

[Han Shot First]

Wulfram wrote...

Companions we're generally supposed to be able to sympathise with, and I think it would be almost impossible to write it so that audience would keep any sympathy with someone who was really racist against elves. Not if they were doing this simply because it was the societal norm - you could maybe do it if it was because, say, Dalish killed their parents, but that would be a different story.

I agree with this.

The only way it would work is if the character was midly bigoted at the start, but evolved to be more tolerant as the game progressed. Character development, and all that jazz.

But to just have a companion be an unrepentant bigot from start to finish would also make them very unsympathetic and unlikable.

[XX-Pyro]

Han Shot First wrote...

XX-Pyro wrote...

Well Leliana didn't like Morrigan much but that's cause that particular Warden was a rascal. Honestly though I'm not quite sure if I'd enjoy this or not, I suppose I'd have to see how it plays out in game! Not against it though.

Morrigan was human.

I must have missed that part in my 30 or so playthroughs, thanks for pointing it out.

Modifié par XX-Pyro, 08 février 2013 - 11:09 .

[Thasinta]

Harle Cerulean wrote...
It's a tricky question. It theoretically exists in the setting, but it's uncomfortable to show for a lot of people, in ways that aren't necessarily the good "makes you think" sort of discomfort, but "unpleasant reminders" uncomfortable. Technically, we should see it, and by telling us it's there but not showing it, the setting and worldbuilding is weaker. But is that worth making players deal with it?

It's nearly enough showing for me just to have almost all the elves (that aren't Dalish) living in Alienages. Fenris lives in a mansion (but it's never explained how he "gets away with it"), and there are some elves in Darktown. I can't remember seeing many more elves in the rest of the cities (Denerim and Kirkwall) that weren't either servants or prostitutes. As seen in Denerim, the authorities can simply close off an entire Alienage, a sort of thing I think is very unlikely they could do to other neighborhoods in the city.

I suppose it could be made clearer why they're all in Alienages. It was mentioned in a City Elf origin that elves who tried to move outside the Alienage usually had their houses burned down shortly after. I don't know if a human would know that, or if humans (the ones that don't go burning down houses of elves that are "getting a little uppity", that is) just quietly assume that elves live in Alienages because they all just want to. Which I suppose could be a kind of racism of its own - "Well, since they aren't all trying to move out of here, I guess these people just like cramming themselves into tiny hovels and firetraps"; or that they just lack ambition - "Well, since they aren't saving up money to move out (or a family fund that would let their children or grandchildren move), that just means they're all lazy."

I wouldn't be too thrilled at having a racist companion. At least, not one who intentionally is mean towards elves. On the other hand, I suppose I could take a "non-thinking/inactive/passive" racist, e.g. a companion had a business running on the side and paid the elven workers lower wages for harder work, not because the elves deserve less, but only because "that's just how it's always been and they don't seem to complain" - I don't think that would bother me too much. 

I would like, in that case, to have an option to have a little chat with him, or for an elven companion to start arguing. Our PCs probably won't be able to change the minds of an entire nation, but it would be a little pleasing to get a chance at changing a someone's mind.

[Han Shot First]

XX-Pyro wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

XX-Pyro wrote...

Well Leliana didn't like Morrigan much but that's cause that particular Warden was a rascal. Honestly though I'm not quite sure if I'd enjoy this or not, I suppose I'd have to see how it plays out in game! Not against it though.

Morrigan was human.

I must have missed that part in my 30 or so playthroughs, thanks for pointing it out.

How does Morrigan's relationship with Leliana relate to the topic at hand? I fail to see how two human characters not hitting it off relates to characters not liking elves because they are pointy-eared and excel at poverty.

Hence my reminder that Morrigan was human.

[nightscrawl]

Conduit0 wrote...

But really what I meant about not wanting a Fenris 2.0 is not wanting another character that is obnoxiously outspoken about their dislike of a certain group.  Especially since I know they won't give me the option to do this every time they say something inappropriate.

LOL great show. I'll admit, I felt that way on occasion.

Thasinta wrote...

Fenris lives in a mansion (but it's never explained how he "gets away with it")...

It's suggested and even mentioned that there is bribery or other coercion happening on his behalf by Isabela and Aveline. Also, if the Tevinter merchant that Danarius originally confiscated the mansion from, nor Danarius himself, never show up to complain about it, the only concern that Fenris will have in the long term are paying taxes or other red tape associated with living in a mansion that would eventually be noticed by the people in charge of those areas.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 08 février 2013 - 12:35 .

[Sable Rhapsody]

Han Shot First wrote...
The only way it would work is if the character was midly bigoted at the start, but evolved to be more tolerant as the game progressed. Character development, and all that jazz.

But to just have a companion be an unrepentant bigot from start to finish would also make them very unsympathetic and unlikable.

Yeah, even if the games have a more medieval setting, they're meant for a modern audience.  Even if character traits like racism, sexism, etc. are thematically appropriate, they tend to turn off a lot of modern audiences.

Hell, just look at Ash's "racism" and how badly that got blown out of proportion. 

[MichaelStuart]

I would enjoy having a companion that's unpleasant to be around.
Extra points if the companion is too useful gameplay wise to get rid off.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

I think it's more of a case of Bioware not being able to cater for every way people want to RP. Dalish and City Elf PCs were able to be somewhat anti-human in DA:O, so I don't believe it'a a case of being anti-discrimination. The relationship between humans and elves was simply more important to portray in those elven Origins than it was for the human ones. See also Anders vs Fenris vs Merrill. The elf thing didn't really come up at all. It was about mages and magic, because that was the focus of DA2's plot.

Oh, and let's not forget Velanna in Dragon Age: Awakening!

Anders: Have I ever told you that I find tattoos on women incredibly attractive?
Velanna: Have I ever told you that I find most humans physically and morally repulsive?
Anders: Good to know!

Nathaniel: Your glares suggest that you do not care for my presence.
Velanna: I am simply wondering how your kind can call yourselves "nobles." It seems ironic.
Nathaniel: We like irony. And it rolls off the tongue better than "oppressors."
Velanna: Ah, so you're a funny human.
Nathaniel: Not I. I wouldn't dare lighten your mood, my lady.
Velanna: (Grunts)

Her relationship with humans is closely tied with her personal quest and character growth.

Hence, I'm sure Bioware could do a(nother) racist/speciest companion if there was a point to it.

[Thetford]

Sorry to pick up a language point on the first page, but wouldn't an Elfist be an elf who thinks elves are better than other races?

[Rawgrim]

The OP makes an excelent point.

[Herr Uhl]

The hatred of humans amongst the Dalish is nigh mandatory though, as seen whenever they're visited. Humans care less about elves in general, so you'd have to make them deliberately hate elves.

Edit: While most humans would probably want to kill Dalish on sight, their entire culture isn't based around getting screwed over by elves.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 08 février 2013 - 01:55 .

[kalasaurus]

MichaelStuart wrote...

I would enjoy having a companion that's unpleasant to be around.
Extra points if the companion is too useful gameplay wise to get rid off.

Like Anders? 

Nah, seriously if we have a companion who's like Vaughan Urium, he'll be meeting the murder knife sooner rather than later.

There are a few off-handed racist comments made by companions, like were mentioned before.  I'd rather the racism not be a character-defining trait.  Leliana's a good example of it- she's not hostile towards the elves, but her views on them are skewed (and she apologizes and rethinks them).

Modifié par GlassElephant, 08 février 2013 - 02:08 .

[AstraDrakkar]

Well, in DA2 you had the option of turning Fenris over to Danarius, (not that I could ever bring myself to do such a thing). Strange that Anders' plot armor prevented the option of turning him over to the Templars or the Gray Wardens.

Modifié par AstraDrakkar, 08 février 2013 - 02:10 .

[animedreamer]

 Because when you're in a group in which you have to work together you tend to want to get along. This could mean not saying things you know would be considered offensive. Like I don't know, "Elves are dirty, smelly moss lickers." or "Dwarves are squat smelly drunks, who'd chop somebody in half just ot prove they're tough." lol Considering the Warden could kill just about all his companions at one point or another, I don't think anyone would intentionally want to ****** off the Warden if he or she were an Elf. 

Modifié par animedreamer, 08 février 2013 - 06:28 .

[Brodoteau]

Han Shot First wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Companions we're generally supposed to be able to sympathise with, and I think it would be almost impossible to write it so that audience would keep any sympathy with someone who was really racist against elves. Not if they were doing this simply because it was the societal norm - you could maybe do it if it was because, say, Dalish killed their parents, but that would be a different story.

I agree with this.

The only way it would work is if the character was midly bigoted at the start, but evolved to be more tolerant as the game progressed. Character development, and all that jazz.

But to just have a companion be an unrepentant bigot from start to finish would also make them very unsympathetic and unlikable.

When I read this, I just think of Keldorn from BG2, one of my favourite companions in Bioware games.  He fought alongside evil characters (but didn't approve of them) and even developed a grudging respect for them (like Korgan).  That's some great character development there.  But I don't think he was any more tolerant at the end of the game... he just wasn't stupid about it.

Interestingly enough, I also don't think Bioware has given us the opportunity to really help change things for the elves (in a meaningful way).  Why haven't we had any "elf-rights" activists as companions either? (Would Shianni have made a good companion character?)  

I think its interesting that people excuse the Dalish, Velanna and Sten, but wouldn't want a human character with bigoted prejuidices. 

Oh and one thing to go back quite a few posts: Varric was born in Orzammar; he was raised in Kirkwall.  So technically he's not from Kirkwall.  I believe. It did seem strange to me that there wasn't a single companion from Kirkwall in DA2.  Though I guess Varric "counts."