294 réponses à ce sujet

[JWvonGoethe]

It's quite interesting how popular Sten is despite his being a child-murdering bigot. And I mean interesting in a good way - why is someone is so unpleasant also so likeable? And should people feel bad about that, or is it just being tolerant and turning a blind eye to someone's flaws? He's no literary marvel, but it's good that there are games developers not afraid to present these questions.

Modifié par JWvonGoethe, 08 février 2013 - 04:00 .

[nightscrawl]

Brodoteau wrote...

Oh and one thing to go back quite a few posts: Varric was born in Orzammar; he was raised in Kirkwall.  So technically he's not from Kirkwall.  I believe. It did seem strange to me that there wasn't a single companion from Kirkwall in DA2.  Though I guess Varric "counts."

Nope.

Mary Kirby wrote...

Varric was born in Kirkwall. His family was noble before they became skyers. He is, therefore, a merchant prince among the surface dwarves. And that's probably all I can tell you about him for now.

Gotta check the wiki before you confirm or deny things, there was a link to this post in the footnote . Also, I think he does mention it during the quest dialog in Act 1 where you have a chance to ask about his history.

GlassElephant wrote...

Nah, seriously if we have a companion who's like Vaughan Urium, he'll be meeting the murder knife sooner rather than later.

I'm not one to go around killing followers for kicks, but I'd happily knife this guy.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 08 février 2013 - 04:43 .

[WardenWade]

JWvonGoethe wrote...

It's quite interesting how popular Sten is despite his being a child-murdering bigot. And I mean interesting in a good way - why is someone is so unpleasant also so likeable? And should people feel bad about that, or is it just being tolerant and turning a blind eye to someone's flaws? He's no literary marvel, but it's good that there are games developers not afraid to present these questions.

I was thinking about this recently myself, as a matter of fact...  I wonder if this is in part because Sten is in active atonement for what he did, and recognized immediately that it was a terrible wrong he committed (shown by
 
**POSSIBLE SPOILERS**

allowing himself to be captured and waiting to die in Lothering)?  There is no excuse for what he did, but he was also in confusion and panic at the time of the incident regarding the strangers who had taken him in and the loss of his sword.  Perhaps that makes his situation more relatable?

**END SPOILERS**

Also, as regards some earlier discussion in this thread on overt racism in the series, in the Denerim alienage there are signboards on many of the buildings dictating that elves are not allowed to bear weapons.  Alarith will also mention that he has to keep his shopkeeping quiet as, I presume, elves may not be allowed to own businesses.  It isn't the same as a sign ordering "knife ears" to keep out, but it is I think further visual corroboration with the lore.

Modifié par WardenWade, 08 février 2013 - 05:13 .

[Thasinta]

WardenWade wrote...

JWvonGoethe wrote...

It's quite interesting how popular Sten is despite his being a child-murdering bigot. And I mean interesting in a good way - why is someone is so unpleasant also so likeable? And should people feel bad about that, or is it just being tolerant and turning a blind eye to someone's flaws? He's no literary marvel, but it's good that there are games developers not afraid to present these questions.

I was thinking about this recently myself, as a matter of fact...  I wonder if this is in part because Sten is in active atonement for what he did, and recognized immediately that it was a terrible wrong he committed (shown by
 
**POSSIBLE SPOILERS**

allowing himself to be captured and waiting to die in Lothering)?  There is no excuse for what he did, but he was also in confusion and panic at the time of the incident regarding the strangers who had taken him in and the loss of his sword.  Perhaps that makes his situation more relatable?

**END SPOILERS**

Also, as regards some earlier discussion in this thread on overt racism in the series, in the Denerim alienage there are signboards on many of the buildings dictating that elves are not allowed to bear weapons.  Alarith will also mention that he has to keep his shopkeeping quiet as, I presume, elves may not be allowed to own businesses.  It isn't the same as a sign ordering "knife ears" to keep out, but it is I think further visual corroboration with the lore.

Or they don't have the signs because they think elves can't read? It works just as well to yell at someone entering your store, after all. Especially if you're swinging a club at the same time.

And yeah, I'd think a reason for Sten being fairly acceptable is that he knows he's done wrong and is atoning for it in a small way - instead of dying in a cage, he gets to partake in what must seem like a farily suicidal mission.

nightscrawl wrote...

Thasinta wrote...

Fenris lives in a mansion (but it's never explained how he "gets away with it")...

It's suggested and even mentioned that there is bribery or other coercion happening on his behalf by Isabela and Aveline. Also, if the Tevinter merchant that Danarius originally confiscated the mansion from, nor Danarius himself, never show up to complain about it, the only concern that Fenris will have in the long term are paying taxes or other red tape associated with living in a mansion that would eventually be noticed by the people in charge of those areas.

Ah, thanks. I've yet to take on a game with Fenris in the party (and I may have been a bit lax on checking in on him), so that stuff must've gone right past me. Or I wasn't paying enough attention. Anyway, thanks.

Modifié par Thasinta, 08 février 2013 - 05:25 .

[Brodoteau]

nightscrawl wrote...

Gotta check the wiki before you confirm or deny things, there was a link to this post in the footnote . Also, I think he does mention it during the quest dialog in Act 1 where you have a chance to ask about his history.

I stand corrected, but I swear I remember Varric saying that he was born in Orzammar just before his family left for the surface.  Maybe I am confusing he and his brother.  Oh well... I think my point about non-Kirkwall companions still is valid (despite Varric's exception).

[WardenWade]

Thasinta wrote...

WardenWade wrote...

JWvonGoethe wrote...

It's quite interesting how popular Sten is despite his being a child-murdering bigot. And I mean interesting in a good way - why is someone is so unpleasant also so likeable? And should people feel bad about that, or is it just being tolerant and turning a blind eye to someone's flaws? He's no literary marvel, but it's good that there are games developers not afraid to present these questions.

I was thinking about this recently myself, as a matter of fact...  I wonder if this is in part because Sten is in active atonement for what he did, and recognized immediately that it was a terrible wrong he committed (shown by
 
**POSSIBLE SPOILERS**

allowing himself to be captured and waiting to die in Lothering)?  There is no excuse for what he did, but he was also in confusion and panic at the time of the incident regarding the strangers who had taken him in and the loss of his sword.  Perhaps that makes his situation more relatable?

**END SPOILERS**

Also, as regards some earlier discussion in this thread on overt racism in the series, in the Denerim alienage there are signboards on many of the buildings dictating that elves are not allowed to bear weapons.  Alarith will also mention that he has to keep his shopkeeping quiet as, I presume, elves may not be allowed to own businesses.  It isn't the same as a sign ordering "knife ears" to keep out, but it is I think further visual corroboration with the lore.

Or they don't have the signs because they think elves can't read? It works just as well to yell at someone entering your store, after all. Especially if you're swinging a club at the same time.

And yeah, I'd think a reason for Sten being fairly acceptable is that he knows he's done wrong and is atoning for it in a small way - instead of dying in a cage, he gets to partake in what must seem like a farily suicidal mission.

Regarding the bolded text, that's a good point.  According to Asunder, many people can only read dwarven runes...most city elves would probably be even less likely than humans to know more than this.  And in a similar vein, I believe there is an elven servant in Castle Redcliffe who mentions in ambient dialogue that only a few of his fellow elves can count, as well. 

I agree about Sten, as well.  IIRC in Origins you can basically tell him that he can fight (and very likely die) combatting the Blight to try and make amends, in some way, for what he did. 

Modifié par WardenWade, 08 février 2013 - 06:07 .

[Potato Cat]

I would be interested in having a racist companion, if only to make the world more believeable. Not Vaughn racist, but racist. And I agree that Nathaniel should have at least been a little racist.

[WardenWade]

Faerunner wrote...

I think DA:A is believable in all ways but one. Anders knew what it was like to be discriminated against as a mage and so likely identified with elves (doesn't he say at one point between games that elves and mages should band together?)...

As an aside, this point has always interested me as well in DA2, along with the elven viddethari.  I wonder what would have happened if the city elves and mages had banded together?  Perhaps Act 3 might have been very different..?

Modifié par WardenWade, 08 février 2013 - 06:20 .

[JWvonGoethe]

WardenWade wrote...

I wonder if this is in part because Sten is in active atonement for what he did, and recognized immediately that it was a terrible wrong he committed

Thasinta wrote...
And yeah, I'd think a reason for Sten being fairly acceptable is that he knows he's done wrong and is atoning for it in a small way - instead of dying in a cage, he gets to partake in what must seem like a farily suicidal mission.

Possibly, and there is definitely room for interpretation here, but his words may betray any notion that he feels guilt. Not only does he seem to defer his actions, and therefore his ethical responsibility, to the Qun, he states that he only regrets his actions because of the Qun, as killing the family in Lothering went against it. This may just be a way of trying to emotionally detach himself from his actions, but this emotional detachment precludes ethical responsibility.

He then punishes himself by refusing to break out of the cage when it is apparently within his power to do so. Fine. However, he is fairly quick to accept a new, more enjoyable punishment (for him) which is to follow the Warden as a warrior. Does atonement really include being able to choose the most convenient punishment for yourself? And even if it does, should a child murderer ever really be likeable, even if it is possible for them to atone? But that's what I admire about Sten as a character, there are so many possible ways to read him. (Granted, I haven't played DA:O in a while so my memory might not be entirely reliable.)

Modifié par JWvonGoethe, 08 février 2013 - 06:29 .

[WardenWade]

JWvonGoethe wrote...

WardenWade wrote...

I wonder if this is in part because Sten is in active atonement for what he did, and recognized immediately that it was a terrible wrong he committed

Thasinta wrote...
And yeah, I'd think a reason for Sten being fairly acceptable is that he knows he's done wrong and is atoning for it in a small way - instead of dying in a cage, he gets to partake in what must seem like a farily suicidal mission.

Possibly, and there is definitely room for interpretation here, but his words may betray any notion that he feels guilt. Not only does he seem to defer his actions, and therefore his ethical responsibility, to the Qun, he states that he only regrets his actions because of the Qun, as killing the family in Lothering went against it. This may just be a way of trying to emotionally detach himself from his actions, butthis emotional detachment just further precludes ethical responsibility.

He then punishes himself by refusing to break out of the cage when it is apparently within his power to do so. Fine. However, he is fairly quick to accept a new, more enjoyable punishment (for him) which is to follow the Warden as a warrior. Does atonement really include being able to choose the most convenient punishment for yourself? And even if it does, should a child murderer ever really be likeable, even if it is possible for them to atone? But that's what I like about Sten's character, there are so many possible ways to read him. (Granted, I haven't played DA:O in a while so my memory might not be entriely reliable.)

These are great points you bring up, JWvonGoethe.  I hadn't considered this.  It's a tough call to make...and an extremely tough subject.

Modifié par WardenWade, 08 février 2013 - 06:32 .

[Wulfram]

I cut Sten some slack because it's clear his minds been utterly screwed up by brainwashing.

[animedreamer]

Wulfram wrote...

I cut Sten some slack because it's clear his minds been utterly screwed up by brainwashing.

This sounds like the same excuse a child raised by racist parents use. Not you per say, but if there were one, this would be the kind of reasoning I'd expect others who maybe knew him/her would extend toward them.

[kalasaurus]

JWvonGoethe wrote...

It's quite interesting how popular Sten is despite his being a child-murdering bigot. And I mean interesting in a good way - why is someone is so unpleasant also so likeable? And should people feel bad about that, or is it just being tolerant and turning a blind eye to someone's flaws? He's no literary marvel, but it's good that there are games developers not afraid to present these questions.

I know I dread his, "I don't understand.  You look like a woman," forced chat.

My mage, human, female Warden becomes Kadan to him.  Lol.  I guess he isn't so intolerant.

[Thasinta]

I tend to free him but I don't think I've ever had him in my party. After all, as a Warden, I'm out to save a good chunk of humanity (and I suppose elvity and dwarfity, too) - and that includes some people like Arl Howe - wicked people, people that I've never met and will never meet, but would at least be aware, somehow, that out there in the world is a lot of people I wouldn't hesitate to call evil. I think it's fair to assume that any Warden, no matter what Origin is chosen is aware of two things: Being a Warden is about saving the world, and there's a lot of bad people in the world. By saving the world, we're saving everyone, the evil ones too.

So what's one more murderer saved?

Modifié par Thasinta, 08 février 2013 - 07:31 .

[ReallyRue]

Leliana comes off as patronising about the issue of elves, but you can actually inform her of this if you're an elf, and she will say it's given her a lot to think about.

And on the flipside, Velanna was racist in a very obvious, homicidal way.

Modifié par ReallyRue, 08 février 2013 - 07:00 .

[BouncyFrag]

Judging in-game characters with the same mindset as you would in real life doesn't really sync up with me. Most video games require you to kill a lot of people, so at a basic level we are all killers (talking about in-game, not real life) as are the companions you meet in the game. I'm a big Sten fan, but can't stand Isabella and Merrill. I could site my reasons for or against my preferences and other fans would have reasonable arguments to support theirs but I see no need to persuade others to my opinion or to get upset if others say negative things about the characters that I hold near and dear.

Modifié par BouncyFrag, 08 février 2013 - 07:08 .

[Herr Uhl]

ReallyRue wrote...

And on the flipside, Velanna was racist in a very obvious, homicidal way.

She was harder to rationalize for bringing along than Sten. At least Sten seemed repentant.

[Insaner Robot]

Han Shot First wrote...

I agree with this.

The only way it would work is if the character was midly bigoted at the start, but evolved to be more tolerant as the game progressed. Character development, and all that jazz.

But to just have a companion be an unrepentant bigot from start to finish would also make them very unsympathetic and unlikable.

So would they still have the anger or issues et all that made them "an unrepentant bigot" but merely be able to see another point of view so that the are able to tolerate, or put up,  with something.

Brodoteau wrote...


When I read this, I just think of Keldorn from BG2, one of my favourite companions in Bioware games.  He fought alongside evil characters (but didn't approve of them) and even developed a grudging respect for them (like Korgan).  That's some great character development there.  But I don't think he was any more tolerant at the end of the game... he just wasn't stupid about it.

He didn't like evil but was willing to work with and even respect evil characters. That sounds like the definition of tolerance to me.
The other side of the coin, deciding evil would be ok as a choice would be acceptance, which would have been out of character for him.

Sorry if I come of as an idiot or some such. But to plagarise a Peter Griffinism it really "grinds my gears" when people confuse tolerance with acceptance, which is most times tolerance is mentioned.

[Foolsfolly]

Brodoteau wrote...

 Thedas is supposed to be pretty stratified in the way the society is organized.  Elves are supposed to viewed as sub-human.  And yet, our companions have been a pretty enlightened bunch.  Despite Sten making a few comments, and Sebastien trying to move people to the Maker, there haven't really been a lot of intolerant companions in the DA universe.  

Not that this is a bad thing.  But would you like to have a companion that has "normal" Thedosian views of elves? 

I know that in ME, people were upset with Ashley's attitudes towards the aliens, but that helped to flesh out the character.  There are still people that are upset over Keldorn killing Viconia in BG2.  But that helped to flesh out the setting and the character. 

So what say you, more "Ashleys" in DA3?  

I think they've avoided it because that character would lose sympathy with the player. You bring up Ashley from Mass Effect so let's look at that. Remember all the hate she got back when ME1 dropped? Remember all the comments about her being racist?

Did she ever act on her opinions? No. She tells Shepard she doesn't like aliens and doesn't trust them to ever have huamnity's interests at heart. Which are pretty reasonable opinions for a human to have 20 years after first contact with dozens of alien species.

People hated her for that.

[JWvonGoethe]

Faerunner wrote...

I don't know. I think it's humiliating for a Qunari to follow a non-Qunari (who they literally refer to as "bas" or "things"), especially the equivalent of a general following some rookie who just got their credentials a few days/weeks ago. I don't think he'd consider it "more enjoyable" since his pride is wounded.

Not to mention that you can look at it as Sten wanting to do more good with his atonement. Dying in a cage doesn't really help anyone. By saving the world from the Blight, Sten can try to save millions to make up for the handful he killed. If he dies trying (which he knows is a possibility), then his death will serve as atonement as much as dying in a cage. Sten acknowledges too that nothing can make up for the family he killed (he doesn't act like, "Oh, I saved x many people, that cancels out my crime!"), but he still tries to do as much as he can with the life he knows is forfeit.

Yeah it was just really one, fairly harsh and unforgiving interpretation of Sten that I was trying to convey - it doesn't necessarily reflect how I see him. In truth, I'm not entirely sure where I stand when it comes to Sten. I suppose as I said, I like him, but I feel quite uncomfortable that I do.

And you're right that "more enjoyable" was a poor choice of words.  "More suited to Sten's disposition" is probably a better phrase when it comes to describing his decision to accept adventuring with the Warden as his punishment.

[LinksOcarina]

Herr Uhl wrote...

ReallyRue wrote...

And on the flipside, Velanna was racist in a very obvious, homicidal way.

She was harder to rationalize for bringing along than Sten. At least Sten seemed repentant.

Sten was a fish out of water. He was technically not racist at all because he was following his beliefs. 

Velanna...well...she was for me one of the weaker characters in Awakening because I couldn't see a reason for her to be there or be liked...frankly.

[Addai]

Well Leliana did say that she was pleasantly surprised my Dalish Warden hadn't kidnapped any children.

Many players evidently react badly when someone questions the worth of their special snowflake. Gaider said they changed Alistair's character because in focus testing, male players especially didn't like that he questioned their decisions, etc. I appreciate an NPC who doesn't bow and scrape, but a lot of games are written to stroke the player ego.

[Foolsfolly]

Addai67 wrote...

Well Leliana did say that she was pleasantly surprised my Dalish Warden hadn't kidnapped any children.

Many players evidently react badly when someone questions the worth of their special snowflake. Gaider said they changed Alistair's character because in focus testing, male players especially didn't like that he questioned their decisions, etc. I appreciate an NPC who doesn't bow and scrape, but a lot of games are written to stroke the player ego.

Heh, that reminds me of the audio commentary for Half-Life 2 (why don't more games have those?). In testing they found gamers disliked Alex if she told them what to do. Instead she follows and never repeats "Hurry to the X!" so gamers would like her.