294 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

Velanna's issues are tied wholly to one major event in her life that sent her into a spiral of despair, and they don't really last that long if you take the time to get to know her. She's really not all that bad.

[Medhia Nox]

Because genuine mature themes aren't actually welcome in video games - so they sit on the fringe where irrelevant NPCs partake in uncomfortable actions.

Blood and underwear sex are as "mature" as the gaming crowd is usually willing to get.

[Thasinta]

Addai67 wrote...
Many players evidently react badly when someone questions the worth of their special snowflake. Gaider said they changed Alistair's character because in focus testing, male players especially didn't like that he questioned their decisions, etc. I appreciate an NPC who doesn't bow and scrape, but a lot of games are written to stroke the player ego.

Well, boo to that. I might very well not have reacted any better than these focus testers (so boo to me, too) - still, I like to think I wouldn't have minded a few more companions who voiced their disapproval with my chosen course more fiercely than "Character disapproves -5" (or however it was phrased).

Medhia Nox wrote...

Because genuine mature themes aren't actually welcome in video games - so they sit on the fringe where irrelevant NPCs partake in uncomfortable actions. 

Blood and underwear sex are as "mature" as the gaming crowd is usually willing to get.

Which I guess is kind of funny, seeing as neither sex (underwear or not) nor violence, by themselves, make works any more mature. Less suitable for minors, maybe, but not necessarily more mature.

Modifié par Thasinta, 08 février 2013 - 09:45 .

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...

Velanna's issues are tied wholly to one major event in her life that sent her into a spiral of despair, and they don't really last that long if you take the time to get to know her. She's really not all that bad.

Her dialogue about how the elves have lost they stories indicates a deeply ingrained hatred caused by historical racial tensions between elves and humans. Her clan's confrontation with the nearby human city village was simply the straw that broke the camel's back so to speak.
Her unrepentance over the murder of innocent merchants bothered me but I enjoyed the topics she brought up as well as the varied number of responses and the epilogue makes mention of her changing her ways and saving a human village from darkspaw so...her presence was not all that bad, I suppose.

[Wulfram]

Addai67 wrote...

Many players evidently react badly when someone questions the worth of their special snowflake. Gaider said they changed Alistair's character because in focus testing, male players especially didn't like that he questioned their decisions, etc. I appreciate an NPC who doesn't bow and scrape, but a lot of games are written to stroke the player ego.

To be fair, I think Alistair is an odd case because he really should be in charge.  If he'd stuck my Warden with the job and then started carping from the sidelines I'd be fairly annoyed.

[Teddie Sage]

Why should they, really? I mean, everyone is free to believe what they want. Just because they don't show some expressions or thoughts doesn't mean they aren't thinking them -- the contrary also applicable here.

[Johnny Shepard]

Well, so far none of the companions have had any reason to hate Elves. Their character haven't been right for it.
None of the others have had the chance. In DA:O you could play an Elf and it would just be wrong if one of your companions hated Elves (or Dwarves) and treated you badly. (OK, Shale hates every living thing but she is a special case) Same with Awakening.
In DA2, sure they could have done it. Fenris hates mages and slavers but it's because it was right for the character. But Varric cares for Merril like she was his little sister (in truth, he takes care of all of them to ceap them safe) so he can't hate Elves. Isabela could slee with the Warden if he/she was an Elf so not her. Anders didn't in Awakening so he's out.
Avaline could, I guess, but would she still be our Avaline if she hated Elves? She sort of are the morale in the gang.
That leaves Bethany and Carver. I myself have a hard time seing Bethany hating Elves (even her hating Qunari feel strange) and Carver I haven't played with yet so I don't know. But he sort of hates Mages so maybe it would just make him too hatefull?

So, they could have made a character for DA2 just to have someone hate Elves but why? What would be the point?

But still, I would welcome it in DA3 if it makes sense for the character. But not just because we should have a companion that hates Elves and treat them bad.

[Allan Schumacher]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Because genuine mature themes aren't actually welcome in video games - so they sit on the fringe where irrelevant NPCs partake in uncomfortable actions.

Blood and underwear sex are as "mature" as the gaming crowd is usually willing to get.

Having a racist party member can just as easily come across less like a "genuine mature theme" and more along the lines of "look we're trying to be edgy and dark."

I disagree with the notion that having a racist party member would make for a genuine mature theme, and certainly disagree with the notion that to have genuine mature themes you need a racist party member (or even racism in general).


Take a movie like Showgirls, and a movie like The Shawshank Redemption.  I don't consider Showgirls to be the more mature movie.

Maturity has more to do with the way topics (any topic) is treated and approached in a game, rather than the specifics of the what the topic itself is.

[Wulfram]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Maturity has more to do with the way topics (any topic) is treated and approached in a game, rather than the specifics of the what the topic itself is.

I don't think including racism as a major setting element - which it is - and then shuffling it off to minor characters and the real outright one dimensional villains (Howe, Vaughan) is a particularly mature way of approaching the topic of racism.

Though it may be the only way of approaching the topic without making the game a lot less fun, and I'd probably prioritise fun over maturity in my computer games.

[mousestalker]

Allan Schumacher wrote..
Take a movie like Showgirls, and a movie like The Shawshank Redemption.  I don't consider Showgirls to be the more mature movie.

Maturity has more to do with the way topics (any topic) is treated and approached in a game, rather than the specifics of the what the topic itself is.

The problem with Showgirls is Paul Verhoeven did not sell his soul to the devil. He only leased it. The lease having run out, he was reduced to making movies like Showgirls.

[Allan Schumacher]

I don't think including racism as a major setting element - which it is - and then shuffling it off to minor characters and the real outright one dimensional villains (Howe, Vaughan) is a particularly mature way of approaching the topic of racism.

Fine. More to the point of my post that you quoted I'm not sure how your response relates to it. At best I see you as implicitly agreeing that the maturity has more to do with the way the topic is presented (and that we failed)....

[Fast Jimmy]

The fact that you had companions who were anti-Mage, a group of people with no control over the circumstances of their birth, could have been edgy or dark. But it wound up just being Fenris.

So I'm not sure having a companion who was anti-Elves, or Dwarves, or even Kossith would be a target for good content. More like one-dimensional content, as it would almost dictate that everything about that facet of the character be part of their story arc. At least in video game writing.

[Wulfram]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Fine. More to the point of my post that you quoted I'm not sure how your response relates to it. At best I see you as implicitly agreeing that the maturity has more to do with the way the topic is presented (and that we failed)....

Well now I'm not sure how your response related to the post you were replying to.  Since it seemed like it was intended as a refutation.

Maybe I should go to bed before I get more confused.

Modifié par Wulfram, 08 février 2013 - 11:54 .

[Allan Schumacher]

My point was that simply including a racist companion character does not make for genuine mature themes, and rather that genuine mature themes have more to do with how a particular topic is approached and presented, rather than the specifics of the content.

So it was something of a refutation (I disagree that not having a racist companion character undermines any of the maturity in the DA games. If our games are not sufficiently mature, it's for other reasons), with a counterpoint.

[Wulfram]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

My point was that simply including a racist companion character does not make for genuine mature themes, and rather that genuine mature themes have more to do with how a particular topic is approached and presented, rather than the specifics of the content.

So it was something of a refutation (I disagree that not having a racist companion character undermines any of the maturity in the DA games. If our games are not sufficiently mature, it's for other reasons), with a counterpoint.

Well, I was saying that having a racist character in a role such as companion would in fact make the game more mature, at least in it's handling of this particular theme.

[Darth Krytie]

Wulfram wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

My point was that simply including a racist companion character does not make for genuine mature themes, and rather that genuine mature themes have more to do with how a particular topic is approached and presented, rather than the specifics of the content.

So it was something of a refutation (I disagree that not having a racist companion character undermines any of the maturity in the DA games. If our games are not sufficiently mature, it's for other reasons), with a counterpoint.

Well, I was saying that having a racist character in a role such as companion would in fact make the game more mature, at least in it's handling of this particular theme.

Kind of ironic, from a roleplaying perspective, as I'd find a companion who is racist to be immature, like I was dealing with a child.

[Masha Potato]

Simple inclusion of sensitive themes doesn't make anything more "mature", only careful and thorough handling of those sensitive issues does. Like including a whole bunch of racist imperials in SWTOR doesn't make the game mature. It actually achieves exactly the opposite.

[Thasinta]

Wulfram wrote...
Well, I was saying that having a racist character in a role such as companion would in fact make the game more mature, at least in it's handling of this particular theme.

But it's more than just having a racist companion, it's also in how that companion is shown to be racist. I mean, you could have a companion who's racist just because ("Elves suck because having ears like that means they're inferior") and is basically like that guy in City Elf Origin, or a slightly more intricate racist  ("Look at how they live, no rational self-respecting being would choose to live like that, so obviously there's something wrong with them") and so resembles whoever it was that wondered why elves in the Alienage didn't try to improve their lot in life, or something beyond that, something my imagination can't conjure right now.

It's also a question of having a majority of the players being able to stand the companion. I guess it would feel like a waste for the developers, to spend the required time on making a companion, writing lines and drawing armour and finding a voice, only to have a good chunk of the players not ever including that character unless when forced to (that "Player Feedback" thing gives, among other things, feedback on how much time each party member spends in a party, right?).

I only speak for myself, but the first kind of companion mentioned above wouldn't last very long in my party. There's no challenge to my views or opinions, no arguments given for thinking of the elves as inferiors - there's just being obnoxious. A racist character with something that could be called a compelling argument (or excuse) for the attitude - well, that's closer to being what I'd call a more mature treatment of the subject.

Modifié par Thasinta, 09 février 2013 - 12:42 .

[Siegdrifa]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

My point was that simply including a racist companion character does not make for genuine mature themes, and rather that genuine mature themes have more to do with how a particular topic is approached and presented, rather than the specifics of the content.

So it was something of a refutation (I disagree that not having a racist companion character undermines any of the maturity in the DA games. If our games are not sufficiently mature, it's for other reasons), with a counterpoint.

And you are not the only one to desagree.
Thanks for your statement.

[Brodoteau]

WardenWade wrote...

As an aside, this point has always interested me as well in DA2, along with the elven viddethari.  I wonder what would have happened if the city elves and mages had banded together?  Perhaps Act 3 might have been very different..?

The potential was actually there to build on actually, especially if they had done more with the "poison gas" plot.  And, Orsino was an elf too (granted a Circle elf, but an elf nonetheless), so that would have allowed some collusion there.  

[WardenWade]

Faerunner wrote...

WardenWade wrote...

As an aside, this point has always interested me as well in DA2, along with the elven viddethari.  I wonder what would have happened if the city elves and mages had banded together?  Perhaps Act 3 might have been very different..?

Sorry, didn't see this before. >< I think if the elves and mages had banded together, it would have been glorious chaos. Not only would the game be more interesting as a whole (there's only so many ways human mages and templars can say, "The Maker thinks magic is evil!" "No He doesn't!" before it just gets repetitive), but it would have  really given the Chantry reason to fret. (Imagine city elves rebelling worldwide against their human overlords as well as mages rebelling against the Circles and templars against the Chantry. It would be the Chantry's worst nightmare.)

No worries!   I agree it would have been unprecedented.  The city elves for example might have been a sort of "x factor," as many are Andrastians and may not be as anti-Chantry as many (thought certainly not all) mages.  Whether working together or separately, I agree that elves and mages in revolt would have been hard cheese indeed for the status quo. 

Ultimately it may be debatable how long an alliance might have lasted, however, as the injustices driving mages and (city) elves in general differ a bit, but maybe they could have made a difference in one another's struggles and lightened each other's burdens some?  I like to think so, anyway   Both seem, to me, to have their origins in perceived innate "wrongness."

Modifié par WardenWade, 09 février 2013 - 01:00 .

[WardenWade]

Brodoteau wrote...

WardenWade wrote...

As an aside, this point has always interested me as well in DA2, along with the elven viddethari.  I wonder what would have happened if the city elves and mages had banded together?  Perhaps Act 3 might have been very different..?

The potential was actually there to build on actually, especially if they had done more with the "poison gas" plot.  And, Orsino was an elf too (granted a Circle elf, but an elf nonetheless), so that would have allowed some collusion there.  

Yes, the elven zealot highlighted a major fissure in the elven community.  I wanted very much to learn more about the "they run to the Qun for purpose" statement, as well, and the growing disaffected population.  It seemed like a real cry for help to me.

And it would have been interesting to see Orsino involved with his kin in the alienage as well.  As you mentioned, that could have been an opportunity for these disenfranchised groups to unite...though he had his hands full, Orsino might have rallied both, maybe, as Hawke united the mages and/or templars?  It's a lot of might-have-beens, but it's intriguing food for thought, as you noted

Modifié par WardenWade, 09 février 2013 - 01:09 .

[Thasinta]

Well, who knows? Maybe the elves, seeing the Chantry (or the humans in general) unable to contain the Templar-Circle troubles, they might start thinking "Now wait a minute. Chaos on the left, societal upheaval on the right - why don't we make a bid for improvement ourselves, now?" Or, if the humans manage to contain everything and maintain a mostly unchanged society in DA:I, the elves go back to quietly seething in the Alienages.

Or a third option, I suppose - the elves make a bid for freedom and there are uprisings in Alienages all over Thedas, but are thwarted (indirectly) by the PC's actions and things end up even worse than before. Gosh, I hope that won't happen - even if it would probably make a terrific story, it would still be like seeing Captain Carrot (or Arya Stark) casually murdered.