294 réponses à ce sujet

[CuriousArtemis]

I appreciated the exchange between Leliana and my Warden. She was basically giving evidence of institutionalized racism... she didn't realize she was being racist, and I liked that my Warden could respond so furiously. She was not a bad person, but she was expressing racist views. And she promised to think more about it. (Baby steps, eh, Leliana?)

A truly racist companion would not be enjoyable. Imagine a human character who hates elves as much as Fenris hates mages. S/he would be intolerable.

[legbamel]

I suppose I could get past it and not hate a racist companion so long as they can be influenced by experience and conversation to rethink their position. If they're just an ignorant bigot then why waste the time creating one?

The Alienages were, I thought, a testament to the institutionalized racism of Tedas without necessarily adding conflict for its own sake to party dynamics. I quite liked Fenris and loved that he could be influenced, at least some, by Bethany and a mage Hawke. But I consider his opinion on par with racism or homophobia: hating a group and stereotyping its members rather than believing that people suck, regardless. Sten thought everyone not Qunari was inferior but he, too, was influenced by the PC and other companions to realize that maybe the world wasn't quite so black and white as he'd been taught.

All in all, I think BioWare has included a fair amount of irrational bias in its NPCs and companions. While we haven't had a companion that was overt, Leliana certainly didn't consider elves to be people. Sten was anti-non-Qunari, Fenris was anti-mage, Velanna was anti-human. Morrigan was anti-everyone. Thedas in general considers elves useful chattel. I don't really see why having someone be in-your-face about a prejudice against elves is a desirable addition.

[nightscrawl]

RE elves not reading: I don't know if this is an inconsistency with that view, but in the DAO alienage were several signs prohibiting elves from having weapons, stating that those who carry swords "will die upon them."

[Weltea]

The warden could make some comments towards Zevran that were going in the racist direction...
There's Leliana's speech about elven servants...
And Isabela's "they're just elves"...
(But I found it (npcs racism) was considerably turned down in the second game,where the intolerance of magic became more of a focus.)

Since the racism against elves incame pretty much mirrors rl racism against non-white people I have to say that I actually find this a good thing, people usually don't play games to be reminded of how terrible the world is even now.
You can still enlighten the anti-magic companions about their narrow ways or lecture pro-mage companions on the dangers of magic (which personally I find more interesting anyway because there's a certain amiguity to it that racism obviously lacks).

[The Six Path of Pain]

I agree with this...A companion who discriminates against elves(or other races in general and it doesn't have to be a human)simply because that is how they were raised would really add to the game and party

[Maverick827]

lv12medic wrote...

(Futurama orphanage children voices)

Knife ears, Knife ears, Knife ears, Knife ears, Knife ears, Knife ears...

It'd get old real quick.

If I never hear "knife ears" again I'll be happy.  It always struck me as a lazy racial slur and I always cringed whenever a character said it.

[Allan Schumacher]

Wulfram wrote...

Well, I was saying that having a racist character in a role such as companion would in fact make the game more mature, at least in it's handling of this particular theme.

Even if this character just runs around just screaming knife ears at all elves and in general being a belligerent twit.  As such, I'd argue such a character has taken away from the maturity of the game despite satisfying your criteria.

[JWvonGoethe]

I think there is a legitimate concern here, and that is that prejudice against elves has already been firmly established in previous DA games, particularly in Origins. If this form of racism is then ignored in future games, then it could be interpreted as a whitewash undertaken to avoid offending PC sensibilities. And worrying about causing offence should never put anyone off simply bringing up an issue as important as racism (though they should of course handle the subject with intelligence and maturity so as not to cause undue offence.)

[kalasaurus]

Maverick827 wrote...

lv12medic wrote...

(Futurama orphanage children voices)

Knife ears, Knife ears, Knife ears, Knife ears, Knife ears, Knife ears...

It'd get old real quick.

If I never hear "knife ears" again I'll be happy.  It always struck me as a lazy racial slur and I always cringed whenever a character said it.

I cringed whenever the Dalish said "flat ears", whether to my City elf or mage elf or just other elves in general.  They really learned a lot from the humans <_<

[Neoleviathan]

I could see such a companion being in Inquisition, simply for the Dalish unrestrained practice of magic. You have the M/T conflict going on & your an Inquisitor. I would guess companions would reflect that conflict & that theme on a smaller scale, so a companion who hates magic & elves by association would be a good fit. Probably wont be too much elf hate from the character, but you can guess a character like that would voice their disapproval similar to how companions have always played their part in the narrative. DA is a party game, so such a character would likely be a foil to another companion, if not a partial antagonist to the player character. With all the conflicts we'll be experiancing you'd expect there to be a great many demons to have found easier access out of the fade, theres much they could exploit. Racism close to being chief among them.

Modifié par Neoleviathan, 09 février 2013 - 09:16 .

[RUDAL]

I can't see the point of making companions angry at themselves because someone is Dwarf or Elf.
They travel together, they get to know each other and I think it would be better for the story and the game if they had issues with others point of view or actions and not with their race.

Imagine if you're living in the same room with two other blokes from different parts of world.
After month you will be angry at them because one picks his nose all the time and the other leaves dirty cloths everywhere and not because of their race...

There are people who will attach some race/country issues to that but is that really the cause that you are angry at them or is it more about what they do?

Modifié par RUDAL, 09 février 2013 - 12:26 .

[Androme]

I think people need to learn what racism is before using the word in a discussion such as this one.

Hint: The belief that your race is genetically superior to other races.

Acknowledging the existence of races (irl humanity is a species with several races), is called racial awareness.Not racism.

Just wanted to drop by and add this to the discussion because there's bound to be people screaming racist at someone suggesting elves are not as contributing to Thedosian society as humans or whatever.

[Harle Cerulean]

Androme wrote...

I think people need to learn what racism is before using the word in a discussion such as this one.

Hint: The belief that your race is genetically superior to other races.

Acknowledging the existence of races (irl humanity is a species with several races), is called racial awareness.Not racism.

Just wanted to drop by and add this to the discussion because there's bound to be people screaming racist at someone suggesting elves are not as contributing to Thedosian society as humans or whatever.

Funny, because your definition of racism is not, in fact, the definition used by anyone else on this planet. That's a racist belief, yes, and someone who holds that belief is almost certainly going to behave in a very racist manner, but that is not the be-all and end-all "this and nothing else" of racism.

[Nashimura]

I dont really care how mature people think it is, id like it just because it would be interesting story-wise and character development-wise. If they have some hurt and turmoil caused by elves in there past then some hate towards the race while not right, is kind of understandable. Honestly it sounds a lot like what they did with Fenris and mages.

[Medhia Nox]

@Schumacher: I believe what you've provided is a writer's immature handling of a topic that can possess a deep and thought provoking impact on my experience.

You said it yourself - it's not exactly what you're writing about - but how you do it.

But let's at least concede that exploring sex and violence in a video game is certainly not treading any new ground since we left the Pong era.

Concepts like freedom vs. slavery, racisim vs. tolerance - those are new ground - and more "mature" possibly because sexuality and violence are two of the most basic themes a human deals with... again, they've been done to death and explored even by children a plenty.

I'd consider an actual relationship or romance to be more mature than how video games (not just Bioware games) treat sexuality. Again - a child becomes sexual at puberty - I'm not shocking anyone there I hope. But building healthy relationships and romance are rarely childhood themes.

Bioware has the courage to explore them in the background - but I think it would only strengthen the material by bringing them to the forefront.  Make me deal with racism on a deeper ground than - "That Pietrice lady was a psycho." or "Yeah - death to the Qunari!" 

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 09 février 2013 - 05:18 .

[MisterJB]

GlassElephant wrote...
I cringed whenever the Dalish said "flat ears", whether to my City elf or mage elf or just other elves in general.  They really learned a lot from the humans <_<

Hey, the elves have a racial slur that stretches back to the time of Arlathan: "Shemlen".

[Meatbaggins]

Androme wrote...

I think people need to learn what racism is before using the word in a discussion such as this one.

Hint: The belief that your race is genetically superior to other races.

You might want to educate yourself on the various forms of racism before coming in to a thread to educate others. Of course merely stating that races exist isn't inherently racist, but it's not  By your defintion, someone who says "I don't believe I'm genetically superior to (insert race) I just can't stand them/think they don't deserve the same rights/think they should be separated" isn't racist. Also, your narrow, simplistic definition doesn't even begin to address institutionalized racism and it's connection to racial stereotypes and social disparity.

Androme wrote...
Acknowledging the existence of races (irl humanity is a species with several races), is called racial awareness.Not racism.

Many scientists dispute the notion that humans are biologically divided into clearly-defined "races", but it's true that believing so isn't inherently racist.

Modifié par Meatbaggins, 09 février 2013 - 06:28 .

[kalasaurus]

MisterJB wrote...

GlassElephant wrote...
I cringed whenever the Dalish said "flat ears", whether to my City elf or mage elf or just other elves in general.  They really learned a lot from the humans <_<

Hey, the elves have a racial slur that stretches back to the time of Arlathan: "Shemlen".

I'm more bothered by how the Dalish consider themselves superior to other elves, and are so arrogant to believe they're the only real ones.  I can understand their dislike of humans, but a lot of their feelings towards City Elves is crap.  My elf wanted to slap Mithra...

[MisterJB]

GlassElephant wrote...
I'm more bothered by how the Dalish consider themselves superior to other elves, and are so arrogant to believe they're the only real ones.  I can understand their dislike of humans, but a lot of their feelings towards City Elves is crap.  My elf wanted to slap Mithra...

I'm bothered by both.

[kalasaurus]

Fair enough. I just find their attitude towards other elves annoying- like when Mithra told my city elf that "Flat Ears are no different than their Shemlen masters". Not all the Dalish are as *****y as Mithra, at least, but they all feel the same superiority. At least the Dalish have a reason to dislike the humans, not to so much for the city elves (who face discrimination far more than they do).

I liked how Fenris reacted to Merrill trying to "convert" him.  I share his opinion on the Dalish.

Modifié par GlassElephant, 09 février 2013 - 07:32 .

[animedreamer]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Well, I was saying that having a racist character in a role such as companion would in fact make the game more mature, at least in it's handling of this particular theme.

Even if this character just runs around just screaming knife ears at all elves and in general being a belligerent twit.  As such, I'd argue such a character has taken away from the maturity of the game despite satisfying your criteria.

I don't see myself recruiting openly antagonising people in my party anyway so if by the off chance said character appeared and i knew i was recruiting or dealing with elves, i'd pass on that person. I think most people would.

[kalasaurus]

Faerunner wrote...

To be fair, most city elves consider themselves superior to the Dalish too. Most city elves think of the Dalish as savages and heathans, even though they more thoroughly live the ancient elvish lifestyle and culture that they claim to want to preserve. (And this coming from someone who loves city elves more than any part of Thedas.)

With that said, Dalish arrogance annoys me too. I've noticed that the ones who tend to be more accepting are those born outside their respective Dalish clans and/or are treated like outsiders too, like Lanaya and Merrill.

That's true.  I guess there is a lot of misunderstanding going on.  Some city elves even doubt they exist, though, and can only judge based on legends and hearsay (likely from the humans).  The Dalish seem to have more interaction and knowledge of other elves since they regularly bring runaways into their clans.

Modifié par GlassElephant, 09 février 2013 - 07:52 .

[MisterJB]

GlassElephant wrote...
At least the Dalish have a reason to dislike the humans,).

Perhaps but you'd think that after 700 years since the Fall of the Dales, one elf or two would have bothered to wonder what part they played in it rather than blame it all on the humans and remain blissfully blind to their own mistakes.