294 réponses à ce sujet

[kalasaurus]

MisterJB wrote...

GlassElephant wrote...
At least the Dalish have a reason to dislike the humans,).

Perhaps but you'd think that after 700 years since the Fall of the Dales, one elf or two would have bothered to wonder what part they played in it rather than blame it all on the humans and remain blissfully blind to their own mistakes.

The humans still regularly abuse the elves.  I guess I'm just looking at it more from the City Elf perspective.  That origin story was pretty clear on how poorly the humans treat elves.

True, the Dalish have old grudges (look at Zathrian!).  I find elven distrust in humans more understandable in general.

Modifié par GlassElephant, 09 février 2013 - 08:30 .

[MisterJB]

GlassElephant wrote...
The humans still regularly abuse the elves.  I guess I'm just looking at it more from the City Elf perspective.  That origin story was pretty clear on how poorly the humans treat elves.

We do have more positive outlooks in the game such as the Couslands who treat their servants quite well, be they human or elf, and in Orlais there are elves living better lives than humans; and we are also presented with shows of intolerance by the elves such as them beating a human who was just passing through on his way to work and the City Elves rioting should Soris marry a wealthy human woman rather than celebrating.
Racism, unfortunately, exists amd from both sides but it's not institutionalized in Andrastean society.

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

GlassElephant wrote...

At least the Dalish have a reason to dislike the humans,). 

Perhaps but you'd think that after 700 years since the Fall of the Dales, one elf or two would have bothered to wonder what part they played in it rather than blame it all on the humans and remain blissfully blind to their own mistakes.

The humans claim the elves started it with the attack on Red Crossing; the Dalish claim the humans started it by trying to force them to convert, and sending templars into the Dales as a response to them kicking out their human missionaries (which is the same thing the elven Warden can condemn the Chantry for in Origins). Two sides to the story.

[kalasaurus]

MisterJB wrote...

Racism, unfortunately, exists amd from both sides but it's not institutionalized in Andrastean society.

I agree, there's racism and misunderstanding going back and forth between the humans and elves.  Still, city elves are treated like second class citizens.  Vaughan Urium and his friends and guards thought it was their right to brutally rape/murder elven women because they saw their race as animals.  Lanaya's story was pretty horrible too.  From a City Elf's perspective, humans can be monsters.  Not until the City Elf leaves the alienage does he/she meet humans who treat him/her as an equal (like Duncan and Alistair).

Modifié par GlassElephant, 09 février 2013 - 08:52 .

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
The humans claim the elves started it with the attack on Red Crossing; the Dalish claim the humans started it by trying to force them to convert, and sending templars into the Dales as a response to them kicking out their human missionaries (which is the same thing the elven Warden can condemn the Chantry for in Origins). Two sides to the story.

They don't need to know the truth of who started it to realize that isolation was a poor idea and sacking Val-Royeaux an even worse one.

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The humans claim the elves started it with the attack on Red Crossing; the Dalish claim the humans started it by trying to force them to convert, and sending templars into the Dales as a response to them kicking out their human missionaries (which is the same thing the elven Warden can condemn the Chantry for in Origins). Two sides to the story. 

They don't need to know the truth of who started it to realize that isolation was a poor idea and sacking Val-Royeaux an even worse one. 

The elves wanted to regain their immortality, restore a culture lost because of centuries of slavery and oppression, and regain the glory of Elvhenan; it's why their Emerald Knights keeping guard over their territorial boundaries. If the humans invaded the Dales because the elves refused to capitulate to those who demanded that they worship the Maker and convert to the human religion, then I don't see any reason to blame the elves.

[MisterJB]

GlassElephant wrote...
Not until the City Elf leaves the alienage does he/she meet humans who treat him/her as an equal (like Duncan and Alistair).

Of course but one should take into consideration how the behavior of City Elves contributes to this. The City Elves are not forced to live isolated in the Alienagae, they willingly do so because they prefer to live with their own kin which is quite understandable. Not all humans are tolerant and we can hear many stories of abuse.
But, on the other hand, if you isolate yourself in a quarter of the city and spread rumours of how elves don't want "shems" there and beat any who go near, that ensures the good natured humans will have no interest in cultivating friendly relationships in the Alienage therefore assuring that the only humans who go there are depraved ones like Vaughan who want trouble.

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
The elves wanted to regain their immortality, restore a culture lost because of centuries of slavery and oppression, and regain the glory of Elvhenan; it's why their Emerald Knights keeping guard over their territorial boundaries. If the humans invaded the Dales because the elves refused to capitulate to those who demanded that they worship the Maker and convert to the human religion, then I don't see any reason to blame the elves.

It was a bad decision. The elves were no longer the only race living in the surface of Thedas. There was now the much more numerous humanity to deal with and pretending otherwise is not going to calm racial tensions.
They should have cultivated peaceful trading and diplomatic relationships with neighboring  human nations so as to dissuate any from invading, if that is what really happened.
And even if it was, sacking the very heart of the Chantry was just the worst thing they could have done. What were they trying to do? ****** off every human on the surface of Thedas.

"History of the Dales: Chapter the Last: Pissing off everyone!"

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

Plus they have big necks.

Modifié par DinoSteve, 09 février 2013 - 09:19 .

[Sutekh]

MisterJB wrote...

Of course but one should take into consideration how the behavior of City Elves contributes to this. The City Elves are not forced to live isolated in the Alienagae, they willingly do so because they prefer to live with their own kin which is quite understandable. Not all humans are tolerant and we can hear many stories of abuse.

Are you familiar with the concept of ghetto? That's exactly what the Alienages are.

But, on the other hand, if you isolate yourself in a quarter of the city and spread rumours of how elves don't want "shems" there and beat any who go near, that ensures the good natured humans will have no interest in cultivating friendly relationships in the Alienage therefore assuring that the only humans who go there are depraved ones like Vaughan who want trouble.

The beating of shems in Denerim only started after Howe decided to "cull the herd" [SIC], a thing he did with the Regent's (i.e. the government) blessing (difficult to be more institutionalized than that). Before that, humans weren't welcome, but they weren't beaten either.

Also, regarding the Dalish, the obvious response to being accused of Blood Magic and every possible sacrificing atrocities, and have a whole Exalted March sent against you while you're only minding your own business in your own territory is not to trade peacefully and enhance diplomacy with the very neighbours that just attacked you. The only fault of the Dalish is that they lost, and history is written by the victor.

[MisterJB]

Faerunner wrote...
Oh no, I didn't see any of that. Nan screaming, hurling abuse and threatening violence against the elven staff for something they had little control over (the dog getting into the larder), trying to force them to restrain a dangerous animal that could easily rip an arms off (when she's not willing to do the same), and said behavior being laughed off by the nobles (Gilmore and Cousland) a daily occurance is not an example of humans treating their servants well. I don't care what anyone says.

You're being disingenuous. That's how Nan treats everyone; she yells at both Roland and the Younger Cousland, threatens to leave, etc. She is a grumpy old woman but she is a good person; just try to suggest her whiping them, she refuses. The elves feel free enough to call her a  miserable old bat, I would like to see them try that at Howe's estate.

Elves are legally forbidden from bearing arms, forming their own militias, trading among humans, and are allowed to be purged whenever their human overlords feel like it. Humans overall deny them decent paying jobs, refuse to let them rise in society by buying houses or joining respected institutes like the army, Chantry or nobility, look the other way when crimes are committed against elves, and crack down harder on elves when they commit crimes. Even if they aren't legally slaves, there are enough de jure and de facto practices in place that make racism against elves as good as institutionalized.

False, there is not a law that forbids the elves from doing anything that other humans can do be it owning a business or joining the priesthood or army. They were forbidden to use weapons because they rioted.
There is racism from both sides but since the humans have all the power, the elves suffer more.

Faerunner wrote...
Hate crimes drive them back to the alienage when they try to leave.

And what do the other elves do? They look on with scorn and contempt at those elves who pushed for a better life.
Is that helping?

Modifié par MisterJB, 09 février 2013 - 09:43 .

[MisterJB]

Sutekh wrote...
Also, regarding the Dalish, the obvious response to being accused of Blood Magic and every possible sacrificing atrocities, and have a whole Exalted March sent against you while you're only minding your own business in your own territory is not to trade peacefully and enhance diplomacy with the very neighbours that just attacked you. The only fault of the Dalish is that they lost, and history is written by the victor.

The Exhalted March was called only after the elves had victories against the orlesians and were on the very doorstep of Val-Royeaux; which they sacked. They were not minding their business.
Losers can tell as many stories so long as they survive which the dalish did. We do not know who struck the first blow; chances are the truth is somewhere in the middle; but we do know that humans sent missionaries, yes, but also traders and diplomats to the Dales in an attempt to co-exist.

[ReallyRue]

I find it more interesting to have tidbits of this sort of thing from various sources to add flavour to the setting, not slap-in-your-face-mwahaha-evil characters like Vaughn in our party.

For instance, there were offhand comments from NPCs in DAO about an elf Warden, and the fracture between City Elves and Dalish was interesting to see if you played a Tabris or Surana in the Dalish quest. There was the conversation with Leliana, who was spouting stereotypes/racist comments without even realising. You get to react, and she has a think about it.Then in DA2, there's a random dialogue in Hightown where Fenris says something like "why are the guards all looking at me like I'm going to steal something?" and Isabela replies "because you're an elf, and it's a perfect distraction for those of us who are actually stealing." I think there's another comment too in MotA, where Fenris grumbles about being refered to as a servant.

Unless the focus of the games (or one of the focuses) is race relations, I'd rather not be continuously slapped in the face with it on an exagerrated level.

If we have a 'racist' party member, I'd rather it be on a level, where they don't really realise much about the elves and learn through interacting with elven party members. More benign ignorance, not where they actively hate other races.

[Sutekh]

MisterJB wrote...

The Exhalted March was called only after the elves had victories against the orlesians and were on the very doorstep of Val-Royeaux; which they sacked. They were not minding their business.
Losers can tell as many stories so long as they survive which the dalish did. We do not know who struck the first blow; chances are the truth is somewhere in the middle; but we do know that humans sent missionaries, yes, but also traders and diplomats to the Dales in an attempt to co-exist.

That is the Chantry version. The Dalish one is quite different, especially on who started first, which is quite important as to who was minding their own business. It's also said that while missionaries where sent (to convert them), when it failed, they were replaced by Templars, who are not quite the same thing as traders and diplomats.

All this to say that yes, the truth is probably in the middle, but you can't deny there were faults from the human side as well, especially Orlais and the Chantry. Seeing Dalish holding a grudge and choosing to isolate themselves after what they consider to be a majot betrayal is no less understandable than some real world conflicts originating in thousand years old tribal quarrels.

ETA:

[City Elves] were forbidden to use weapons because they rioted.

They were always forbidden to use weapons, at least in Denerim. It's already the case during the CE origin, and the riots happen after the CE future Warden leave for Ostagar. The Warden's mother taught them to use weapons and fight clandestinely. The Warden's father makes it very clear they shouldn't give the slightest hint to a shem that they know how to fight.

Modifié par Sutekh, 09 février 2013 - 10:23 .

[Brodoteau]

I don't think the focus on the game needs to race relations but it does need to continue to be reflected. Honestly, wouldn't a human who thought that elves were equal to other humans be the one with the "odd" ideas in Thedas? I haven't seen many human "elf-rights" activists in my play-throughs.

Again, though, as I've said earlier in the thread, it doesn't (shouldn't?) need to define the character. And I think it is unfair the Ashley's "racism" has defined her to some players. I wouldn't want the character who screams "knife-ears" either. But a character who openly disapproved of me recruiting an elf companion simply because they were an elf would be a more honest reflection of the setting (e.g. how many people warned the PC when he recruited Viconia in BG2).

And, to those who think this would hurt party dynamics, I would say: 1. Good. Did have a pro-mage and anti-mage companion really hurt your overall party dynamics? and 2. I think the could be room for a character that supports institutionalized discrimination (e.g. we can't let those elves vote, what will society come to) but still likes someone on a personal level (e.g. Fenris is a good sort -- for an elf).

[kalasaurus]

MisterJB wrote...

But, on the other hand, if you isolate yourself in a quarter of the city and spread rumours of how elves don't want "shems" there and beat any who go near, that ensures the good natured humans will have no interest in cultivating friendly relationships in the Alienage therefore assuring that the only humans who go there are depraved ones like Vaughan who want trouble.

And Vaughan gets away with his behavior, something that's inferred to be a regular occurance (at least until the City Elf knifes him).  The elves are too scared to step in, and not even Duncan wants to risk contempt with the nobility to maintain the GW "neutrality".  If the elves were equal, they could have reported the incident to someone and not just want to "wait for the best" while Vaughan and his friends rape the brides and bridesmaids.  The PC/Nelaros and Soris are forced to go alone on a risky rescue mission at the horror of their fellow elves because of the backlash they risk from the humans.

There is a lot of back and forth.  Humans abuse the elves, and elves hold the humans in contempt only escalating the tension.  The elves scare humans in the alienage (like when the CE can threaten Duncan), and humans in turn are likely to hold them in contempt.

[MisterJB]

Sutekh wrote...
That is the Chantry version. The Dalish one is quite different, especially on who started first, which is quite important as to who was minding their own business. It's also said that while missionaries where sent (to convert them), when it failed, they were replaced by Templars, who are not quite the same thing as traders and diplomats.

No, that is an historical fact corroborated by every human nation who would see the evidence of elven brutality in Val-Royeaux. The elves claim that what instigated the war was the Chantry sending templars into the Dales; which is possible; while the humans claim that the elves butchered the town of Red Crossing; which is also possible.
The mention of trader and diplomats comes from the Codex: "They became increasingly isolationist, posting Emerald Knights who
guarded their borders with jealousy, rebuking all efforts at trade or
civilized discourse." which is consistent with elven behavior.
The way the war progressed, on the other hand, is not a matter of discussion. Orlesian forces lost battles against dalish and many cities, including Val-Royeaux fell. That was when the March was called. We even have a date of when this happened. Year 10 of the Second Age: Glory.

but you can't deny there were faults from the human side as well, especially Orlais and the Chantry.

Nor did I ever. My opposition of the elven isolationism is based more on practicality rather than morality.

[MisterJB]

GlassElephant wrote...
And Vaughan gets away with his behavior, something that's inferred to be a regular occurance (at least until the City Elf knifes him).  The elves are too scared to step in, and not even Duncan wants to risk contempt with the nobility to maintain the GW "neutrality".  If the elves were equal, they could have reported the incident to someone and not just want to "wait for the best" while Vaughan and his friends rape the brides and bridesmaids.  The PC/Nelaros and Soris are forced to go alone on a risky rescue mission at the horror of their fellow elves because of the backlash they risk from the humans.

There is a lot of back and forth.  Humans abuse the elves, and elves hold the humans in contempt only escalating the tension.  The elves scare humans in the alienage (like when the CE can threaten Duncan), and humans in turn are likely to hold them in contempt.

To be fair, Vaughan is a noble and the greatest authority figure in Denerim; besides Anora; while Cailan, his father and the Grand Cleric were in Ostagar. Had human peasants attempted to report him, they would have no better luck.
I will not, however, deny the fact that being elven works against them more often than not.

Like you said, both sides have elements who are more than happy to contribute to the escalating violence.

[MisterJB]

Sutekh wrote...
They were always forbidden to use weapons, at least in Denerim. It's already the case during the CE origin, and the riots happen after the CE future Warden leave for Ostagar. The Warden's mother taught them to use weapons and fight clandestinely. The Warden's father makes it very clear they shouldn't give the slightest hint to a shem that they know how to fight.

Which could be interpreted as precaution against provoking humans who would not like the idea of elves being able to defend themselves. The CE also warns a child to be careful where he says that "humans are lazy" which doesn't mean that elves don't have free speech.
The official notice forbidding elves from bearing arms only appears on the Alienage after the riots.

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

Sutekh wrote...

That is the Chantry version. The Dalish one is quite different, especially on who started first, which is quite important as to who was minding their own business. It's also said that while missionaries where sent (to convert them), when it failed, they were replaced by Templars, who are not quite the same thing as traders and diplomats.

No, that is an historical fact corroborated by every human nation who would see the evidence of elven brutality in Val-Royeaux. The elves claim that what instigated the war was the Chantry sending templars into the Dales; which is possible; while the humans claim that the elves butchered the town of Red Crossing; which is also possible.
The mention of trader and diplomats comes from the Codex: "They became increasingly isolationist, posting Emerald Knights who guarded their borders with jealousy, rebuking all efforts at trade or civilized discourse." which is consistent with elven behavior.
The way the war progressed, on the other hand, is not a matter of discussion. Orlesian forces lost battles against dalish and many cities, including Val-Royeaux fell. That was when the March was called. We even have a date of when this happened. Year 10 of the Second Age: Glory.

You mean it's a claim by an imperialistic society that conquered other nations since its inception, and continues to do so (as Fereldens who liberated the nation from Orlesian occupation can attest to).

[Sutekh]

MisterJB wrote...

Sutekh wrote...
They were always forbidden to use weapons, at least in Denerim. It's already the case during the CE origin, and the riots happen after the CE future Warden leave for Ostagar. The Warden's mother taught them to use weapons and fight clandestinely. The Warden's father makes it very clear they shouldn't give the slightest hint to a shem that they know how to fight.

Which could be interpreted as precaution against provoking humans who would not like the idea of elves being able to defend themselves. The CE also warns a child to be careful where he says that "humans are lazy" which doesn't mean that elves don't have free speech.
The official notice forbidding elves from bearing arms only appears on the Alienage after the riots.

There's little difference between not having a right by law, and not having it de facto. The result is the same. Whether it's written or not, if an elf says humans are lazy and is heard by a human, there will be retaliation. And the human will not be punished for beating the elf, even though I'm pretty sure Fereldan laws forbid the random beating of citizens.

On the same note, having the right to buy a house outside the Alienage means little if it will be burned or its occupants killed. In practice, it's the exact equivalent of not being allowed to buy a house. I'd even say it's even worse, because it gives the illusion of right, and you cant' even complain because then people (and governments) will use the exact same argument you're using: "What are you complaining about? You're free to buy a house wherever you want."

re Dalish: the codex you mention was written by Sister Petrine, i.e. straight from the Chantry.

[MisterJB]

Who should we believe in? Every Andrastean nation in Thedas who have little reason to love orlesian and yet no entry in the codex contests the Sack of Val-Royeaux or the elves who don't actually contest it, just refuse to acknowledge it?
As if imperialistic societies can't be invaded.