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[dragonflight288]

MisterJB wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
IIRC, talking to Alarith in the CE origin and asking him if he sells weapons prompts him to say what amounts to "What are you, nuts? You know Elves can't have weapons."

You are right. I just checked and he say weapons are banned in the Alienage and that possessing one is punishable by...something.
Of course, this doesn't tell us how much the law allows humans the freedom to possess weapons; for instance, can a shopkeeper just buy a greatsword at Wade's and carry it around his shoulder in Denerim, doubtfull; but I concede the point. Elves can't own weapons which does leave them at a disadvantage should trouble arise.

If a shopkeeper is human or dwarven (who are commonly associated as smiths or traders on the surface...and nothing else) can afford it, most likely. It's the elves who have been made special exceptions and are banned from weapons.

There was one origin that, based on the little I know since it was cut before Origins was released (human commoner from Redcliff) where you play a farmer. A farmer who has enough skill to become a warden. So yeah, I'd say humans are allowed weapons when elves are not.

[Sabariel]

Edit: Never mind. My brain shorted out. Thought the original post was about something else.

Modifié par Sabariel, 10 février 2013 - 06:57 .

[In Exile]

dragonflight288 wrote...
There was one origin that, based on the little I know since it was cut before Origins was released (human commoner from Redcliff) where you play a farmer. A farmer who has enough skill to become a warden. So yeah, I'd say humans are allowed weapons when elves are not.

Part of the reason why it was cut was that there was no way to avoid making you look like a chosen one in how pure awesome you were. So I think that's not quite accurate.

And in DA:O, the signs for weapons (as I recall) only show up for the CE origin. And you can imagine why that ban was suddenly in place.

[KiwiQuiche]

In DA2 I found it was the elf in the group that treated everyone else badly lol

[TEWR]

Faerunner wrote...

Said by who?

Iona.

Faerunner wrote...

The Highever elves we see mistreated by the cook with her employers' consent

Come on, be honest. Haven't you ever had a boss that just goes "Get back to work before I can ya!" but really doesn't mean it? Or is just making themselves look like a hard-ass because... well... they have to appear such?

It's just typical employer/employee stuff. It's not like she beats them.

Though I do recall the HN having that option. Can't say if it led to anything. Never picked it.

Faerunner wrote...

every elven servant in Arl Eamon's and the Arl of Denerim's estates terrified of being seen doddling

I think that's due more to how a lot of Elves are kinda lazy out of choice rather then because there's no opportunity, so if it appears like they're dawdling -- even if they're not -- it just sets a bad example and vindicates the already crappy perception of Elves.

And besides, not doing your job is... really bad. You're not hired to chitchat and stand around. You're hired to do your job. If she was cleaning and talking, that'd be different.

That said, we do see more cases of Elves suffering elsewhere.

I think the elves would settle for humans simply not burning their homes and killing the owners every time they try to move out of their socially-imposed ghettos. Humans don't necessarily have to help, but not hindering would be a lovely start.

I agree.

perhaps they have

They don't. The codex on Elves in the human cities, written by one of the Alienage's Hahrens, says "They're not Elves anymore. They're forsaking who they are". in regards to Elves that leave.

Their talk of being a close-knit family ends at the gates. Anyone goes beyond that gate is automatically not an Elf, unless they're recruited into the Wardens. 

but how long could several unarmed elves last against a city or town full of humans who don't want them there? More elves moving into human neighborhoods likely means more aronists, murderers and looters to drive them out, and law enforcement would likely still look the other way.

Depends on how many arsonists appeared. If it's just two, then twenty Elves could easily clean their clocks.

It also depends on the City Guard and who's running it. Kylon probably wouldn't allow it. Aveline wouldn't investigate until much, much later, if at all.

Bah, Aveline's beyond incompetent as a Guard-Captain.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 10 février 2013 - 07:46 .

[nightscrawl]

Faerunner wrote...

I've noticed that the ones who tend to be more accepting are those born outside their respective Dalish clans and/or are treated like outsiders too, like Lanaya and Merrill.

Heh, did you hear the derogatory tone that Merrill uses when she refers to Feynriel as a "half breed"? I was totally floored by that when I first heard it. That kind of rudeness is something I expect from Anders or Fenris, not Merrill.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 10 février 2013 - 08:16 .

[MissOuJ]

I don't know if I'd like to see a racist party memeber because I have to agree, that'd smell a bit too dark and edgy to my tastes, but I do think that the elves' oppression was a bit overlooked in DA2, probably because of the mage-templar issue that took up so much party banter time (and I'm not complaining here, I loved those conversations). What I'd like to see is a banter where a pretty upstanding and nice NPC says something racist "by accident" - as in voicing some of the offensive ideas mainstream Thedas culture has about elves s/he has internalised and so offending an elven partymember, who vocally objects to the things the NPC said or the language they used.

Maybe the NPC would become defensive and say something along the lines of "hey I didn't mean it like that" or "you now I'm a good gal/guy - you're an elf and you're my friend!" so the elven character could - well, tell them to **** off, basically - and later the NPC could apologize / s/he and the elven character could have further party banter on why whatever the NPC said was offensive/racist etc. Or the NPC could just not care about any of this and that's how we know s/he's a racist a**hole - it doesn't have to be the be all and end all of his/her character (think Ashley from ME).

So, in my (very white, very western, female) opinion a character doesn't have to be a "full-time racist" who spouts crap about the elven inferiority every five minutes. I don't think that would be a very realistic portrayal of how racism/sexism/homophobia works in small social circles (although it is pretty realistic portrayal of how it works in the mass media): it's not the WBC that hurts the most, it's the people around you who you know and work with saying something hurtful and not even realizing it.

[MissOuJ]

nightscrawl wrote...

Heh, did you hear the derogatory tone that Merrill uses when she refers to Feynriel as a "half breed"? I was totally floored by that when I first heard it. That kind of rudeness is something I expect from Anders or Fenris, not Merrill.

Pretty much everyone in DA2 has their own hangups - for Fenris it's mages (and for a good reason), for Anders it's blood mages and templars (again, for a good reason). If you think about it, for pretty much everyone else their hangups are mainly social: Aveline's and Sebastian's fear of magic is social (unlike Fenris', who has seen first hand what mages with unlimited social power can do), Merrill's feelinds on "elven purity" are very much social (and become a difficult personal question for her in her friendship romance), etc. etc.

I actually find it a bit telling that pretty much the only people who do not have any apparent hangups are Varric and Isabela: the backstabber and the picklock.

[dragonflight288]

MissOuJ wrote...

nightscrawl wrote...

Heh, did you hear the derogatory tone that Merrill uses when she refers to Feynriel as a "half breed"? I was totally floored by that when I first heard it. That kind of rudeness is something I expect from Anders or Fenris, not Merrill.

Pretty much everyone in DA2 has their own hangups - for Fenris it's mages (and for a good reason), for Anders it's blood mages and templars (again, for a good reason). If you think about it, for pretty much everyone else their hangups are mainly social: Aveline's and Sebastian's fear of magic is social (unlike Fenris', who has seen first hand what mages with unlimited social power can do), Merrill's feelinds on "elven purity" are very much social (and become a difficult personal question for her in her friendship romance), etc. etc.

I actually find it a bit telling that pretty much the only people who do not have any apparent hangups are Varric and Isabela: the backstabber and the picklock.

The only ones without apparent hangups are the pirate and the compulsive liar?

[dragonflight288]

In Exile wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
There was one origin that, based on the little I know since it was cut before Origins was released (human commoner from Redcliff) where you play a farmer. A farmer who has enough skill to become a warden. So yeah, I'd say humans are allowed weapons when elves are not.

Part of the reason why it was cut was that there was no way to avoid making you look like a chosen one in how pure awesome you were. So I think that's not quite accurate.

And in DA:O, the signs for weapons (as I recall) only show up for the CE origin. And you can imagine why that ban was suddenly in place.

Hatred of elves? Keep them from defending themselves if they set up shop outside of an alienage? Make it easier to purge them? Force them to wear dresses and dance the Remigold?

[Sejborg]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Well, I was saying that having a racist character in a role such as companion would in fact make the game more mature, at least in it's handling of this particular theme.

Even if this character just runs around just screaming knife ears at all elves and in general being a belligerent twit.  As such, I'd argue such a character has taken away from the maturity of the game despite satisfying your criteria.

I think it was handled rather well in ME1 with Ashley, Pressley, that random gathering on the citadel and other minor stuff.

[LobselVith8]

BlueMagitek wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Except plenty of elves in Zathrian's own clan aren't racist, including his First Lanaya. So it's more than a little silly for you to disregard the Dalish codex entries simply because Zathrian is angry that humans brutally murdered his son and raped his daughter.

Centuries ago.  And then he turned said humans into werewolves.  So.... no sympathy there?

For people who participated in rape? Take a wild guess.

BlueMagitek wrote...

And it's hilarious to discount a codex written by a Chantry brother or sister just because they're affiliated with the Chantry.  Or to disregard a codex from a First Enchanter because they're a part of the Circle.  Seriously, get over it.

People point out the accounts can be biased, especially given the Chantry's symbiotic tie to an imperialistic nation. No one contests that a war transpired, however.

[BlueMagitek]

dragonflight288 wrote...

If a shopkeeper is human or dwarven (who are commonly associated as smiths or traders on the surface...and nothing else) can afford it, most likely. It's the elves who have been made special exceptions and are banned from weapons.

There was one origin that, based on the little I know since it was cut before Origins was released (human commoner from Redcliff) where you play a farmer. A farmer who has enough skill to become a warden. So yeah, I'd say humans are allowed weapons when elves are not.

I was under the impression it was a Human Barbarian (Chasind) origin.  But, you know, if a City Elf (who as you note, cannot possess or train with weapons) and a fresh Mage with no experience outside the tower can be Wardens, I think your disingenous assertions about farmers is kind of low.

LobselVith8 wrote...

For people who participated in rape? Take a wild guess.

People
point out the accounts can be biased, especially given the Chantry's
symbiotic tie to an imperialistic nation. No one contests that a war
transpired, however.

Who he then turned into werewolves.  Sorry, but no, binding a demon (or spirit) and creating a centuries long curse is crossing the line.

No, but for some reason the Chantry gets a lot more flak than basically any other group for Codex Bias, and it is really a bit unfounded.

[LobselVith8]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Faerunner wrote...

The Highever elves we see mistreated by the cook with her employers' consent

Come on, be honest. Haven't you ever had a boss that just goes "Get back to work before I can ya!" but really doesn't mean it? Or is just making themselves look like a hard-ass because... well... they have to appear such?

It's just typical employer/employee stuff. It's not like she beats them.

Though I do recall the HN having that option. Can't say if it led to anything. Never picked it.

I think Faerunner is addressing that specific scene with the devs stated intent of putting the player on the other side of racism, which came up a while back in the Fenris thread. It's partly why I see the "human only" approach for the post-Origins protagonists as problematic.

[MisterJB]

Faerunner wrote...

Said by who?

Iona who is an elf herself and is quite pleased with working for Lady Landra
because she also treats her elven servants kindly.

So the small handful of examples you cobbled together cancels out virtually
every other instance over the games?

No but if you want to claim that every single human is just out to get the
elves, that they go to bed planning on how much they'll screw the elves
tomorrow and wake up wondering how they'll screw the elves today, I'll point
out how innacurate you're being by presenting cases where no elf is being
abused.

The Highever elves we see mistreated by the cook with her employers'
consent,

They were joking. The elves felt so confident that nothing would happen to them
that they insulted her where she could hear. Because they knew that she is a
good woman and so are the lord of the household.

every elven messenger and laborer in Ostagar scrambling because they're
afraid of getting the switch, every elven servant in Arl Eamon's and the Arl of
Denerim's estates terrified of being seen doddling,

Does your employer pay you to be standing around chatting? Because mine
doesn't.

the elven family in Lothering who couldn't get any help after they were
robbed by bandits,

Everyone was robbed by those bandits, elven and human alike, it's a bloody
refugee camp! Those humans were as much in a ****** poor situation as the elves.

the serial murders who couldn't get any justice because no one cared
about the deaths of elven children,

And you think that a human would have had more luck condemning the son of the
Magistrate? Good luck with that.

? I think the elves would settle for humans simply not burning their
homes and killing the owners every time they try to move out of their
socially-imposed ghettos. Humans don't necessarily have to help, but not
hindering would be a lovely start.

There will always be intolerance. The elves will just have to face it.

Perhaps they could, perhaps they have,

No, the author of the codex
entry clearly disapproves of their actions; going so far as to denounce them as
non-elves and we know that City Elves follow the words of the Elders; and most
elves we meet are more likely to cower that fight back.

 

but how long could
several unarmed elves last against a city or town full of humans who don't want
them there? More elves moving into human neighborhoods likely means more
aronists, murderers and looters to drive them out, and law enforcement would
likely still look the other way.

Assuming that someone is going
to be racist because of their race IS racist. Denerim is a city of thousands
and not every human is just looking for ways to hurt elves.

There are some who would feel
threatened, of course, and some conflicts are inevitable but if you’re just
content to sit in your squalor filled quarter, don’t complain if things don’t
improve.

[MisterJB]

Faerunner wrote...
Don't forget that one Origins epilogue slide reveals that, if the CE Warden becomes the Bann, humans lead huge race riots in protest of the influx of elven immigrants in the Denerim Alienage, who moved in because they were desperate for real hope. Humans feel threatened when the elven population rises in the privacy of their own alienages; how would they react to elves moving into their own neighborhoods?

And if Soris becomes the bann and marries a wealthy human woman, the elves rather than seeing this an an opportunity yo better integrate with the humans, choose to riot proving, once again, that intolerance exists in both races.

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

Faerunner wrote...
Don't forget that one Origins epilogue slide reveals that, if the CE Warden becomes the Bann, humans lead huge race riots in protest of the influx of elven immigrants in the Denerim Alienage, who moved in because they were desperate for real hope. Humans feel threatened when the elven population rises in the privacy of their own alienages; how would they react to elves moving into their own neighborhoods? 

And if Soris becomes the bann and marries a wealthy human woman, the elves rather than seeing this an an opportunity yo better integrate with the humans, choose to riot proving, once again, that intolerance exists in both races. 

The different reactions for the Elven Warden, Shianni, and Soris as Bann illustrated the schism between elves and humans in Thedas. I wish we got some reaction from human noble Hawke being in a publicly known relationship with Merrill or Fenris (outside the brief mention in their codex entry).

[MisterJB]

Faerunner wrote...
Iona is also an elf in the service of a family friend who worships the ground the Couslands walk on, and she's talking to a Cousland him/herself. I've said before that I don't consider her a fully credible source in this situation because she's made it clear she needs her job and she's nervous about saying or doing anything that might jeopardize it. 

If she saw mistreatment of the elves (or no better treatment than anywhere), she's not going to say anything that might be construed as insulting or critical because she's not going to risk Cousland getting her in trouble with her lady for speaking out of turn. 

People also tend to be more honest and open with their peers than authorative figures who can get them in trouble. To compare, Nessa's family in the CE Origin mention how they've heard the Highever Alienage is worse than the one in Denerim. Since elves constantly intermarry between the Highever and Denerim Alienages, I think it's safe to say they had reliable sources. Not to mention if the Female City Elf asks Nelaros about Highever, he'll actually say the Denerim Alienage seems better because there are more elves, so you can get lost in the crowd. In Highever, the fewer elves stand out more, and so get picked on more. I'm inclined to believe them over Iona.

You know, I could scrounge up reasons to discredit Nelaros just as easily. Maybe he just didn't want to say anything bad about the home of his soon to be wife.
But the point here is not whether Highever is a safe haven for elves everywhere. Iona readily admits that elves don't stand out as much in Denerim because there are more of them.
The point is whether the Couslands treat kindly elves who work in their household which we are told and see that they do. Obviously, the Couslands can't prevent any and all attacks from happening.

The elves were physically cowaring, wincing, and hanging their heads as she was screaming. They clearly weren't just laughing or rolling their eyes at her antics as you seem to suggest the situation was.

If they were scared at all, they wouldn't call her a miserable old bat to her face.
And it's worth nothing that Nan didn't do them a thing for that.

The difference between human and elven employees you talk to is that humans have a very calm manner. "Are you done? I need to get back to work." Or "I don't have time for this now." Whereas virtually every elf you try to talk to gives very nervous and fearful responses. "Please, I have to finish this before I get in trouble!" "Please don't talk to me, I can't be seen dawdling." "I have to get this over there before I get the switch." I don't think they'd be that fearful if they didn't think they'd actually get punished.

There are many households in Thedas that do not treat their elven servants kindly. Therefore, the other elves, even if they are not themselve beaten for standing around, will be more careful than humans because they know that it does happen in other places.

In DA2, Aveline reveals to Merrill that villages like Lothering have elves sleep in abandoned barns and sheds because they're too small to fit an alienage; because heaven forbid elves live in actual houses.

There is zero evidence of that being due to discrimination. Elves exceed at poverty; thank you, Sten; and Lothering is not just offering free houses.

[MrCousland99]

This is very true, this is one of the things The Witcher 2 did very well. Both of the optional companions are racist.
Roche is racist against elves and dwarves and Iorveth was racist against humans.
Both of them were ****s but they did have good things in their personalities also so it would be a very good idea to make a "not-perfect" companion to add some realism that not all people you meet or even start to like are perfect...some of them could be slime, but that's how people are in the real world.

[Thasinta]

Faerunner wrote...
Why would elves need a designated place to live in a human village, and why would they have to settle for lesser, separate structures humans didn't want, if they could live freely among humans if they wished?)

Don't know about the first, but the second: Well, their wages are too low for them to be able to buy/rent a proper house to live in. So it's either the elves that are too lazy to work as much as humans, therefore getting paid less; or they are deemed less worthy by human employers, and therefore get paid less. Another question then - why don't they start their own businesses? Are the not allowed to, or can't they be bothered to?

[Zkyire]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Well, I was saying that having a racist character in a role such as companion would in fact make the game more mature, at least in it's handling of this particular theme.

Even if this character just runs around just screaming knife ears at all elves and in general being a belligerent twit.  As such, I'd argue such a character has taken away from the maturity of the game despite satisfying your criteria.

Anders and Fenris.