294 réponses à ce sujet

[TEWR]

[quote]Faerunner wrote...

Iona is also an elf in the service of a family friend who worships the ground the Couslands walk on, and she's talking to a Cousland him/herself. I've said before that I don't consider her a fully credible source in this situation because she's made it clear she needs her job and she's nervous about saying or doing anything that might jeopardize it. 

If she saw mistreatment of the elves (or no better treatment than anywhere), she's not going to say anything that might be construed as insulting or critical because she's not going to risk Cousland getting her in trouble with her lady for speaking out of turn. [/quote]

I see no reason to immediately discount what she's saying out of hand because you don't believe it. Apparently, it's not possible for there to be one noble family out there that isn't complete jackasses towards the Elves? No, there must be some other reason for her to say that.

Lady Landra isn't just a friend to the Couslands. She's also a kind person to Elves -- mostly seen in Iona being her lady-in-waiting. That's a presigious position for any woman of a lesser noble family to hold to higher nobles -- as was the case historically in our world. That Iona was given to it speaks volumes to how Landra treats her Elves, letting them ascend to positions that most of Thedosian society wouldn't let them. Indeed, Iona's earned that position.

But back to the Couslands, they're a good family that treats Elves well. There's nothing to dispute this. Rumors that another family has heard don't amount to much, because they're just that: rumors. I don't count the rumors of the Dalish having sacrificed people in the past as having any validity, due to two things: 

1) To take a rumor and say "It must be true!" is foolish.
2) Dalish Elves don't do that today.

Besides, what you seem to be using is the whole "skin both of you useless elves" remark as your evidence. That's not very strong evidence, as Nan is angry. People say things when they're angry, sometimes even to get people to do what they need to be done.

Doesn't mean that what they said when they're angry is something they're going to actually do. Case in point, Nan's threat to quit. She's not actually going to quit, but she's angry and she's making remarks that stem from it.

Again, however, as I've never picked the option "Seems like these Elves should be disciplined a bit" option, I can't say what her response to that is. That happens well after her initial remarks about the Elves.


[quote]People also tend to be more honest and open with their peers than authorative figures who can get them in trouble. To compare, Nessa's family in the CE Origin mention how they've heard the Highever Alienage is worse than the one in Denerim. Since elves constantly intermarry between the Highever and Denerim Alienages, I think it's safe to say they had reliable sources. [/quote]

"We've heard X is worse then Y" is not reliable at all. Not unless they give specifics. Have they heard of routine beatings? Rapes? Murder? Theft? Arson?



[quote]Not to mention if the Female City Elf asks Nelaros about Highever, he'll actually say the Denerim Alienage seems better because there are more elves, so you can get lost in the crowd. In Highever, the fewer elves stand out more, and so get picked on more. I'm inclined to believe them over Iona.[/quote]

And Nelaros is an accomplished smith, apparently. Cyrion says that in Highever, he managed to become good at that craft.

Compare that to Denerim where Elves can't even own weapons. Nelaros can craft them. He had to have been apprenticed, which speaks to either a Human or a Dwarf having taken him in. Or maybe an Elf, who would've been apprenticed to someone of either race who would've also been apprenticed to someone of either race.

Either way, Highever is a lot more progressive for Elves then Denerim. Nesiara says that it was hard for her to leave Highever, but did so because her future spouse was described a great deal. If Highever was so bad, would she have been hesitant to leave? I would think not. Family's all well and good, but if the place you're living in is a cesspool rife with crime then I'd think your family would be like "Get the **** out of here!"


[quote]The elves were physically cowaring, wincing, and hanging their heads as she was screaming. They clearly weren't just laughing or rolling their eyes at her antics as you seem to suggest the situation was.[/quote]
I didn't suggest that. I said bosses tend to take that tone with people. Doesn't mean they're actual abusive douchebags to their employees, necessarily. I never said the employee and employer were engaging in comical banter.

Only that Nan, the employer, would be saying things that bosses usually say but she's not actually going to act on it.

[quote]Are you seriously using the hasty generalization of "elves are lazy"?[/quote]Pardons, but I meant to say that's the perception the Elves receive. 

Actually, I did say that. At the very end. 

and vindicates the already crappy perception of Elves.

[quote] Kylon's city guards,[/quote]

The ones that fight off a mercenary's group? The ones that are in the Market District keeping the peace under Kylon's orders, while Kylon asks the Warden to take care of other matters in the city?

[quote]the women gossipping about Queen Anora at Arl Eamon's Denerim Estate.[/quote]

They're cleaning and gossiping, because one of them's actually scrubbing the floors IIRC. If you've never talked and worked at the same time, well....



[quote]

Again though, they're allowed to come back. More reception than I can say for humans.[/quote]

....

Denouncing someone who seeks a different path by choice as a non-Elf and then welcoming them back with open arms saying "Hey, you're an Elf again!" is not a good mindset to employ. And I'd scorn such a welcome before accepting it.

"You accept me when I come crawling back like a mewling babe, but won't help me keep my home? My property? My family!? **** all of you."


[quote]And then the elves would be arrested by the guards for attacking humans.[/quote]

Again, depends on the Guards themselves. 

[quote] In DA2, Aveline reveals to Merrill that villages like Lothering have elves sleep in abandoned barns and sheds because they're too small to fit an alienage; because heaven forbid elves live in actual houses.[/quote]

She does not, at any point, utter the word "abandoned" in that dialogue. She says "stables and outbuildings". That means property of the villagers. 

Which means the villagers are opening their doors to the Elves, as much as possible. Not everyone has a luxury mansion complete with beds galore. You don't hear about there being abandoned property until the Blight has begun. And building homes requires money. And trees/stones. Money which Ferelden has precious little of prior to the Blight, as they have only just recently recovered from near economic bankruptcy after Loghain almost emptied the nation's coffers in a 2 year search for King Maric.

Lothering has very few trees. Yes, it'd be nice for them to own homes there. But given what we know -- Ferelden's economic well being and Lothering's treatment of Elves -- I'd say it's better then Denerim still. At least there the villagers open their doors to the Elves.

[quote]In DA2, a Hawke who lets Merrill move in pisses off the neighbors for letting an elf move in without making her a servant. (Though the fact that they didn't act on it seems iffy to me.)[/quote]

That codex always seemed wonky to me. Kirkwall doesn't even bring up how Hawke's with Merrill save for there. 

However, it seems that the nobility were more horrified that Hawke, a human, fell in love with an Elf. Which is no different from the Elves taking issue with those Elves that fall in love with humans. They're not going to riot over it, but it does make them go "WTF?". Most Humans will only be with Elves "discreetly" -- whether it be through consent or rape. 

Either way, they rarely actually take an Elf for their spouse/lover. When it happens, it faces condemnation from both sides of the fence.

The nobles of Kirkwall really only have a problem with how she acts, but not with her presence itself. Taking their flowers, not being afraid of their attack dogs, walking around without shoes. They probably view the first and third as being "uncivilized" -- whereas it's normal for her, given Dalish culture -- and view the second as just strange.

The extent of it seemed to be letters saying what I can only guess amounted to "Champion, PLEASE tell your Elven woman to stop being so uncivilized!"

Not that Kirkwall's particularly Elf-friendly elsewhere. But there? There it doesn't seem to be much of a problem compared to Vaughan, Kelder/his dad, etc.

[quote]Don't forget that one Origins epilogue slide reveals that, if the CE Warden becomes the Bann, humans lead huge race riots in protest of the influx of elven immigrants in the Denerim Alienage, who moved in because they were desperate for real hope. Humans feel threatened when the elven population rises in the privacy of their own alienages; how would they react to elves moving into their own neighborhoods?[/quote]

I won't justify a riot happening there, but Ferelden's Alienage is ****ty. Really ****ty. An influx of Elven immigrants means that there's going to be less and less room in the city by default. It'd take massive renovations on the Alienage to get it to be a place where the Elves can have a shot at hope and not be like the Elves in Val Royeaux's Alienage.

The riot was uncalled for. But Elves shouldn't also think that they can just move to a new area and things will be peachy right from the get-go. Politics is not that easy.

A steady/slow influx would've been better, as opposed to an immediate one. I understand their reasons for going there and agree that it gives them a better shot at hope and change, but they actually hindered progress by moving there en masse.

And yes, so too did the humans.

[quote]
I have to agree about Aveline. "There are rumors. I'll investigate, but they broke the law," still makes my blood boil. I always want to ask, "Would you have investigated if they hadn't broke the law?" Her guard attacking someone is just a rumor that she can look into when she feels like it, elves attacking a guard gets cracked down on like a ton of bricks... Yeah, no corruption in the city at all, Arishok.
[/quote]

Thankfully, she's progressive in regards to Lia. And we can take from that fact that maybe she's recruited other Elves. But that happens afterwards.

What's really bad is that she'll investigate things that relate to her based on a suspicion -- Act 1 -- but won't investigate other things based on "rumors" until confronted about it. Worse still, when facts are presented to her face she blithely ignores them -- hello Quentin arc.

[quote]Faerunner wrote....

We're talking about little farming villages that poor humans manage to live in each day. This isn't exactly Hightown. For example, Malcolm and Leandra Hawke lived as poor apostates with practically nothing and managed to make their little farm in Lothering. If they could do it, any elf could. The Alienage Codex Entry, coupled with Aveline's comment about there being "no room.. for elves to live" implies that elves simply aren't allowed to live there.[/quote]

Incorrect. Malcolm had at least 75 sovereigns on his person thanks to his aiding the Wardens. He had money to build a life. As did the Elves that left the Alienage, because they had earned enough money to move out.

[quote]Faerunner wrote...

yet they're on the side of the road in their underclothes[/quote]

They're wearing normal clothes like anyone else.

[quote]Faerunner wrote...

Yeah, far away from her daughter because it's the only well-paying job she can get to provide her daughter with the life she wants for her and Lady Landra's estate is supposedly "too small" to house one elven child. (Which I believe about as far as I can throw these characters.)[/quote]

Lady Landra is Bann Loren's wife. A bann is not a particularly wealthy noble. Their home would probably not be very big.

[quote]Faerunner wrote...

If you're going to use the arguement that the Highever elves aren't afraid of Nan because they know she won't hit them (which I doubt[/quote]

As jillabender said below, she will not ever actually harm the Elves.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 11 février 2013 - 05:23 .

[jillabender]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Come on, be honest. Haven't you ever had a boss that just goes "Get back to work before I can ya!" but really doesn't mean it? Or is just making themselves look like a hard-ass because... well... they have to appear such?

It's just typical employer/employee stuff. It's not like she beats them.

With complete respect, I don't think there's any question that Nan is being racist when she says "I'll skin both of you useless elves!" To her credit, she does reject beating them if the player Cousland suggests it, but referring to them solely by their race in a context in which she's both insulting them and in a position of power over them is incredibly demeaning, even if she doesn't realize it.

What makes that situation especially unpleasant is that not only are the elves being yelled at because the Cousland PC let his or her mabari get out of hand, but Cousland never apologizes to them, or even acknowledges them at all! While that's partly an issue of classism as well as racism, it can't really be separated from racism, because elves, with fewer opportunities, are more likely than humans to find themselves in those kinds of situations.

Modifié par jillabender, 09 mars 2013 - 01:06 .

[TEWR]

jillabender wrote...

With complete respect, I don't think there's any question that Nan is being racist when she says "I'll skin both of you useless elves!" To her credit, she does reject beating them if the player Cousland suggests it, but referring to them solely by their race in a context in which she's both insulting them and in a position of power over them is incredibly demeaning, even if she doesn't realize it.

Okay, fair point. But I wouldn't necessarily label that as racism. Disrespectful, certainly. But racism? Seems a bit much.

EDIT: Out of curiosity, what does she say exactly in that scenario?

What makes that situation especially unpleasant is that not only are the elves being yelled at because the Cousland PC let his or her mabari get out of hand, but Cousland never apologizes to them, or even acknowledges them at all! While that's partly an issue of classism as well as racism, it can't really be separated from racism, because elves, with fewer opportunities, are more likely than humans to find themselves in those kinds of situations.

See, I never really took the lack of that as indicative of making the Cousland be racist/classist. Mainly because my Human Noble could be kind to the Elves and the Casteless Dwarves and everything else. 

Does the HN origin suffer from its lack? Arguably so, but then it also suffers from a few other things that are sorely lacking. Does that make it automatically a racist/classist origin? No, I wouldn't say that. Does that portray the Couslands negatively? No, I wouldn't say that either.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 11 février 2013 - 05:23 .

[jillabender]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

jillabender wrote...

With complete respect, I don't think there's any question that Nan is being racist when she says "I'll skin both of you useless elves!" To her credit, she does reject beating them if the player Cousland suggests it, but referring to them solely by their race in a context in which she's both insulting them and in a position of power over them is incredibly demeaning, even if she doesn't realize it.

Okay, fair point. But I wouldn't necessarily label that as racism. Disrespectful, certainly. But racism? Seems a bit much.

EDIT: Out of curiosity, what does she say exactly in that scenario?

It might seem a bit much, but I would consider it racism because there is an inequality based on race at work there. Humans, while they might occasionally be called "shems" by elves, are far less likely than elves to be referred to by their race in a demeaning way by someone in a position of power over them.

To answer your question, the full line is "If I can't get into that larder, I'll skin both of you useless elves, I swear it!"

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

jillabender wrote...

What makes that situation especially unpleasant is that not only are the elves being yelled at because the Cousland PC let his or her mabari get out of hand, but Cousland never apologizes to them, or even acknowledges them at all! While that's partly an issue of classism as well as racism, it can't really be separated from racism, because elves, with fewer opportunities, are more likely than humans to find themselves in those kinds of situations.

See, I never really took the lack of that as indicative of making the Cousland be racist/classist. Mainly because my Human Noble could be kind to the Elves and the Casteless Dwarves and everything else. 

Does the HN origin suffer from its lack? Arguably so, but then it also suffers from a few other things that are sorely lacking. Does that make it automatically a racist/classist origin? No, I wouldn't say that. Does that portray the Couslands negatively? No, I wouldn't say that either.

I certainly agree that the HN origin isn't racist or classist as such. I would say that it portrays racism and classism, but I think it portrays it in a thought-provoking way.

As for whether it portrays the Couslands negatively, the writing certainly gives me the impression that the Couslands see disrespectful treatment of elves as normal, at least in certain contexts - something that's problematic even if it's rooted more in class attitudes than in racial attitudes as such.

For example, even Eleanor and Lady Landra tease Iona in a way that's closer to how one would talk to a young girl than to a woman. They certainly mean it affectionately, but they don't consider that being teased in such a familiar way by her employer, in front of other people, might put Iona in an uncomfortable position.

But I definitely don't see the Couslands as villains or as bad people - as I see it, the writing in the HN origin illustrates that even otherwise decent people can have offensive social prejudices.

My only real problem with the writing for a human noble is that the story seems to me to demand an opportunity for the Cousland PC to recognize his or her prejudiced attitudes, like the moment Leliana can have when an elven PC tells her off. However, I wouldn't necessarily say that the origin suffers greatly for it - it just feels like a bit of a missed opportunity.

Modifié par jillabender, 11 février 2013 - 06:22 .

[TEWR]

jillabender wrote...

To answer your question, the full line is "If I can't get into that larder, I'll skin both of you useless elves, I swear it!

No no haha, I meant when the Cousland says "Maybe you should whip them".

[MisterJB]

Faerunner wrote...
No, they don't. Nan's behavior is deplorable and the Cousland does not have the option to stand up for the elven staff, which reveals a distinct lack of kindly treatment. Notice that when Nan hurls verbal abuse toward Young Cousland, the Dog and the elven staff, Cousland can defend the first two but not the third? Which was, as I said, intentional.

Nan is not mistreating anyone. She yells and threatens the elves, sure, right before turning around, yell at the sixth or seventh most important person in the country; Cailan-Loghain-Anora-Bryce-Leandra(?)-Fergus-Cousland Warden; threatens to put down a purebred mabari, the very simbol of Ferelden; right before feeding him; threatens to leave; which she doesn't; and refuses to beat the elves if suggested.
She's a gumpry but good old woman.

No he doesn't, he whispers it behind her back. Maybe he didn't expect her to hear him, maybe he was so fed up that he felt a beating would be worth letting off a little steam, maybe she already whaled on them enough that he felt he might as well go all the way, maybe the words slipped out before he could stop himself.

Pick the right dialogue options and the elves actually feel free to berate Nan three times, obviously indicator of this being a usual scene and them not being at all afraid of being beaten.
There is nothing that indicates any of the Couslands or their staff being violent towards their servants at all with multiple sources telling us they are, in fact, well treated.

By that logic, and by your previous argument, the Cousland Castle elves should never have uttered a word around Nan because they know they could have been beaten senseless in another castle. If you're going to use the arguement that the Highever elves aren't afraid of Nan because they know she won't hit them (which I doubt), then the same should apply to all elves in every other part of Ferelden. The fact that they are scared witless of the whip implies it is a reality for them.

A reality for some, certainly but also a reality for many humans. In Medieval times, many lords felt free to whip their servants which doesn't mean happens to all or even that people need to be actually be whipped in order to fear it.
Clearly, the Cousland's elves were accostumed to Nan and knew she would never actually lay a hand on them unless they commited some serious crime.

Except for the part where all elven homes the alienage get burned, looted and lynched in human neighborhoods. How many times do I have to bring it up? (Also, you assume all elves are too poor too buy or fix up little cottages in in every farming village, even though the above codex entry makes it clear not all of them are? I'm basing my view off Aveline: "[Lothering] wasn't a big enough village to have a wall around it, let alone a place for elves." Merrill: "Where did the elves live, then?" Aveline: Stables and outbuildings, mostly." Why would elves need a designated place to live in a human village, and why would they have to settle for lesser, separate structures humans didn't want, if they could live freely among humans if they wished?)

They are living amongst humans. That is what living in stables and outbuildings mean. Humans could be offering it to them or they could be renting it because they don't have enough money to afford an actual house. Those elves wealthy enough to buy houses did not earn that money working in small villages like Lothering, they earn it in large cities such as Denerim or Highever where there are more opportunities

Modifié par MisterJB, 11 février 2013 - 06:33 .

[jillabender]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

jillabender wrote...

To answer your question, the full line is "If I can't get into that larder, I'll skin both of you useless elves, I swear it!

No no haha, I meant when the Cousland says "Maybe you should whip them".

Haha, sorry! XD

I'm afraid I don't know exactly what Nan says in response to that line - I've never actually played a character who was ruthless enough to suggest whipping the servants! I do remember that the last time this scene came up, it was mentioned that Nan rejects the idea of whipping them.

[MisterJB]

Faerunner wrote...
Yeah, far away from her daughter because it's the only well-paying job she can get to provide her daughter with the life she wants for her and Lady Landra's estate is supposedly "too small" to house one elven child. (Which I believe about as far as I can throw these characters.)

So basically, we are going to assume that someone is lying if human, correct? Regardless of past behavior, personality.
Lady Landra treats elves well but clearly she MUST be lying if she says her household is not large enough to accomodate a child.

I'm not saying that. I'm saying abuse is very commonplace because the humans who do it don't think anything of it, know that they can get away with it, and humans who don't do it either don't notice or don't try to stop it,

What you said was that no matter where one goes, we see humans mistreating elves which, as I pointed out with examples, is not true. Simple as that.
It's true that some will mistreat elves but not all and certainly not all households. I expect Empress Celene's elven servants live better than some nobles.

And yet humans can go into the Chantry and get help from the priests and templars (like the little red-headed kid who's mom is missing, and I think the Warden), yet they're on the side of the road in their underclothes, unable to get any assistence from anyone, because "no one cares about a few elves like us."

First, they are dressed as everyone else. Second, just because an elf claims that no one there will care about them because they are elves, doesn't make it necessarely true. Third, the place was overflowing with refugees, Chantry included.

If the humans of Kirkwall had found out that a serial killer was targetting human children (and therefore could potentially target their children) and the Magistrate was letting him get away with it, you bet your buttons there would be an outcry and, if the son didn't end up in jail, at the very least the Magistrate would have to take much more effective measures to keep his son under control, rather than continuing to enable his murders.

You have no basis to claim that. If humas from lowtown or ferelden refugees were having their children killed by the son's magistrate, the situations would be exactly the same.
The elf whose daugther survives was a wealthy merchant and if his money couldn't get him justice; it's not going to be our beautiful round ears who will accomplish it.

Like I said, humans in a CE epilogue led race riots against the influx of elven immigrants into the Denerim Alienage (and no mention of the monarch cracking down on the human rioters, whereas the monarch never fails to crack down on elven riots).

And like I said, the elves will riot if Soris, their bann, marries a wealthy human woman which is a perfect example of both intolerance and self inflicted injury

While I would agree, when every attempt at change is met with violent resistence from some humans and said violence is ignored (and thus condoned) by other humans, no amount of progress from the elves is going to last. I'm not asking humans to roll out the red carpet or do it for the elves, but I would settle for them not hindering every attempt at progress.

Some humans are always going to fear elves and want them out of their sight and some humans will always not care one way or the other. There is always going to be violence and there will always be guards willing to look the other way. Social change is hard but it does not happens by isolating yourselves which is something the great majority of elves whether it be dalish or citizens seems to believe.

[Lurklen]

jillabender wrote...

I certainly agree that the HN origin isn't racist or classist as such. I would certainly say that it portrays racism and classism, but I think it portrays it in a thought-provoking way.

As for whether it portrays the Couslands negatively, the writing certainly gives me the impression that the Couslands see disrespectful treatment of elves as normal, at least in certain contexts - something that's problematic even if it's rooted more in class attitudes than in racial attitudes as such. For example, even Eleanor and Lady Landra tease Iona in a way that's closer to how one would talk to a young girl than to a woman. They certainly mean it affectionately, but they don't consider that being teased in such a familiar way by her employer in front of other people might put Iona in an uncomfortable position.

But I definitely don't see them as villains or as bad people as a result - as I see it, the writing in the HN origin illustrates that even otherwise decent people can have offensive social prejudices.

My only real problem with the writing in the HN origin is that the story seems to me to demand an opportunity for the Cousland PC to recognize his or her prejudiced attitudes, like the moment Leliana can have when an elven PC tells her off.

 I agree with this, and I think it was smart of the writers to establish. It's a funny thing about fantasy as a genre, we forget that usually our heroes are either part of or on the side of a class system that most of civilisation has done away with. Monarchies even ones of a slightly more democratic bent like Fereldan are hardly the best enviroment for racial equality, or really any equality. In fact they almost depend on inequality to continue to function.  The fact is the Couslands live in a world where they see themselves above other people and even those people below them are above elves, the reason they don't treat their elves badly is because they aren't nasty people not because they're particularly enlightened

 Even if the Couslands are indulgent to the elves in their territory, the fact that if they weren't no one would care is a problem. It sounds like life for Elves in the Highever Alienage is a rough place, and the Bann who runs the city at the very least doesn't do much to stop it. It's also entirely possible that even if a noble wanted to allow an elf more rights they would not be allowed to. Some laws cross entire cultures, like the laws around mages.

Modifié par Lurklen, 11 février 2013 - 07:29 .

[jillabender]

Lurklen wrote...

jillabender wrote...

I certainly agree that the HN origin isn't racist or classist as such. I would certainly say that it portrays racism and classism, but I think it portrays it in a thought-provoking way.

As for whether it portrays the Couslands negatively, the writing certainly gives me the impression that the Couslands see disrespectful treatment of elves as normal, at least in certain contexts - something that's problematic even if it's rooted more in class attitudes than in racial attitudes as such. For example, even Eleanor and Lady Landra tease Iona in a way that's closer to how one would talk to a young girl than to a woman. They certainly mean it affectionately, but they don't consider that being teased in such a familiar way by her employer in front of other people might put Iona in an uncomfortable position.

But I definitely don't see them as villains or as bad people as a result - as I see it, the writing in the HN origin illustrates that even otherwise decent people can have offensive social prejudices.

My only real problem with the writing in the HN origin is that the story seems to me to demand an opportunity for the Cousland PC to recognize his or her prejudiced attitudes, like the moment Leliana can have when an elven PC tells her off.

 I agree with this, and I think it was smart of the writers to establish. It's a funny thing about fantasy as a genre, we forget that usually our heroes are either part of or on the side of a class system that most of civilisation has done away with. Monarchies even ones of a slightly more democratic bent like Fereldan are hardly the best enviroment for racial equality, or really any equality. In fact they almost depend on inequality to continue to function.  The fact is the Couslands live in a world where they see themselves above other people and even those people below them are above elves, the reason they don't treat their elves badly is because they aren't nasty people not because they're particularly enlightened

Even if the Couslands are indulgent to the elves in their territory, the fact that if they weren't no one would care is a problem. It sounds like life for Elves in the Highever Alienage is a rough place, and the Bann who runs the city at the very least doesn't do much to stop it. It's also entirely possible that even if a noble wanted to allow an elf more rights they would not be allowed to. Some laws cross entire cultures, like the laws around mages.

That's pretty much how I see it as well. The Couslands are certainly decent people, but they do seem to view elves differently than humans, and it doesn't say much for the social situation of elves in general when any decent treatment they get is subject to the indulgence of Humans in authority.

As for the question of whether a noble could get away with allowing elves more rights and freedoms in Thedas, I don't get the impression that any law would prevent them from doing so, but based on what happens to elves who leave their Alienages, and based on what happens in our world to oppressed people when they begin to assert their rights, I would imagine that ordinary humans would become resentful, and would probably make things very difficult for elves who tried to take advantage of their new freedoms.

Modifié par jillabender, 11 février 2013 - 03:48 .

[jillabender]

phone home ASAP

[jillabender]

or email

[mousestalker]

Would everyone be happier if there were a 'kick Fenris' option for the companions in DA2? Is that the consensus?

[TheBlackBaron]

mousestalker wrote...

Would everyone be happier if there were a 'kick Fenris' option for the companions in DA2? Is that the consensus?

We are building consensus. 

[Medhia Nox]

Now I'm upset at the scene in Origins when you first enter Lothering and meet the elven family who had their things taken by the bandits.

The father mentioned that they took his little girls pet lamb.

Why didn't I have a response: "Where did you filthy knife ears steal a lamb from, eh?"

Then kill the father - and sell the daughter and mother to that scummy merchant who argues with the priestess.

+1000 grimdark points from Morrigan to be sure.

[Wolfva2]

I'd have to wonder at your PC, if his choice of friends includes someone who hates his other choice of friends based solely upon their 'race'. Even in DA2 certain party members didn't like a group as a whole, yet respected the companion. Even to the point of questioning their own beliefs. This was also true in the ME series, where even Ashely has second thoughts about how she originally felt about aliens. And, if you got the revisiting Normandy's crash site DLC, you could see how Presley's negative views of other species (and let's be accurate here, hating aliens isn't RACISM, it's SPECIESM) completely reversed by the time of his death. Personally, I seriously disliked him in ME1. But reading his data chits, and how his beliefs had evolved? It made me genuinely sad I didn't get to know him better. Kudos to the guys who wrote that DLC.

Anyways, racism or specism is generally a learned trait which often falls apart once you're exposed to positive members of that race/species. I think DA and ME both did a mildly decent job of showing that. But to have an overtly hateful person in your party? Why would your PC even want that person to be around?

[TEWR]

[quote]Faerunner wrote...

Nan.[/quote]

Who refuses to actually lay a hand on the Elves, if it's suggested by her sworn lord's child. Which means she was making empty threats against the Elves.

Meaning they know she's not actually going to do it.

Meaning they're not subject to abuse as you're trying to paint the situation they're in as.

Meaning that once again, Highever is more progressive to Elves then elsewhere. Contrast this to the City Elf origin where a servant hit the cook over the head because he deserved it. Where Elves are routinely abused in Denerim.

So point mine.

[quote]Rumors created by people from that alienage and confirmed by Nelaros when you ask him.[/quote]

No. That Nessa's family has heard rumors about Highever being worse does not mean diddly without proof that the rumors are true. And that means more then Nelaros going "Well, it's bigger here so that's a plus".

The City Elf also hears rumors that the Dalish are savages. Alarith, one of the few to have actually seen them, regales his Elven brethren with how they aren't savages.

People still don't believe him.

[quote]Like physically restraining a potentially dangerous animal that she knows they have absolutely no control over and who can bite off an arm if they come too near? An animal that she won't try to restrain herself? If she has to threaten to skin them to get them to go near an animal that can take off an arm (basically putting them in a position to chose one of two forms of terrible mutilation), then she's not exactly the picture of harmless anger.[/quote]

The Cousland Warden can say that his Mabari knows better then to hurt anyone. I highly doubt the Mabari is going to go rabid and attack anyone that isn't his master. Nan knows this. Everyone in the castle knows this. That he hasn't let the Elves near him -- assuming he was indeed intimidating them, and the Elves weren't just scared by his actions -- doesn't mean he's going to attack them.

[quote]Doesn't mean he's allowed to own one either, or handle it without supervision.[/quote]

Considering Soris described him as a savage fighter, I'd say he's experienced with them.

And even then using them under supervision is still more progressive then Denerim, so thank you for proving my point that Highever's Elves have more rights then Denerim's.


[quote]Your bosses regularly throw conniption fits that involve screaming, yelling, throwing things, banging things against walls, flailing at you, threatening bodily harm, and trying to force you to do things that could cause you serious damage like restraining dangerous animals that you know can take off a limb?[/quote]

Screaming and yelling into the air -- as you overhear throughout the castle -- and screaming and yelling at your employees are not the same thing. Nan does not do the latter. She angrily and sternly tells the Elves to do something, but she's not yelling at the top of her lungs at them.

And she's not throwing things or banging things either. Or flailing either.



[quote]Yes, Ser Kylon asks the Warden to take care of "other matters in the city" because most of his guards are "illegitimate, untrained moronic whelps," and "If I asked my men to apprehend you, they'd all run and cry big, sobby tears in their courtesan's bosoms," and "If I send my boys in, someone might get- Maker forbid- hurt. And I'll have to explain to their noble fathers that being a guard is actually dangerous."[/quote]

I didn't say they were perfect guardsmen. Only that your claim that they're lounging about on the job is erroneous.

[quote]And yet every elf we encounter is never shown to be talking and working at the same time, and that's my point.[/quote]

So wrong.

MotA showed Elven servants that Hawke interacted with doing their job and interacting well with the guests, as if they weren't even scared. 

They even tell the other servants that they need more wines from the cellars.


[quote]
I didn't say it was welcoming them back with open arms, I was saying it was more reception than a burned down home and murdered inhabitents. When I move to a new neighborhood, I'd rather my neighbors give me the silent treatment than try to kill me. [/quote] 

Except that's exactly what the Alienage Elves do to those who return. They say "Hey, man! You're an Elf again!" and go "You're lucky. See what leaving here does to you? Should never do that, amigo."


[quote]What could they have done? Human neighborhoods have arsonists, looters, murderers, lynch mobs, and race riots against influxes in elven population both within alienages (as told in the epilogue) and within human neighborhoods (as told in the codex entry), and humans crack down on elves with guards and purges when they fight back whereas they're much more lenient toward humans. What could they have done?
[/quote]

Show that they're not meek little cowards, for one. Part of why the Elves are treated like **** so much is because they don't try to fight back against it. It just allows it to be strengthened.

Granted, fighting back also continues the cycle of violence. So it is a conundrum. But they could still do a lot more. Even having the Elves standing outside their friends' houses in large groups would be enough in some instances. If they outnumber the Humans, the humans might just leave because they're scared that they might not get away with it.

Remember what Velanna tells her City Elf brethren? That's how the Elves need to truly act.

[quote]Okay, I concede on the word "abandoned," but after that you're just arguing semantics. How many humans live in stables and outbuildings? How many humans have to live in separate structures from the rest of the population because it's, "not a big enough village for walls, let alone a place for [x group]." Why would they need a wall or a place for elves if they were opening their doors for them as much as possible? That's what I thought.[/quote]

The Humans own the stables and outbuildings. The Elves would be sleeping in a place without any way for them to know what time it is -- stables and outbuildings tend to not have windows. So the humans would find them in the morning.

Yet Aveline doesn't say the Elves were unwanted in those buildings, which suggests that the people of Lothering let the Elves sleep there. Indeed, the codex entry on the city elves penned by Sister Petrine -- who wants to find the truth regarding anything -- notes that Elves were hired as farmhands as well as servants. 

So it makes perfect sense for the Elves to be resting in the stables/outbuildings of human farmers. Because they work for them. How well such a job pays, I don't know. I'd wager not much.

And now you're just arguing poorly. You're saying "Well if they're opening their stables to them, so the Elves should be able to get a home!"

That completely ignores what it takes to actually build a home. Money, lumber, etc. Money is something the Elves do not have enough of to warrant building their own home, as the codex on the Alienages says that the Elves who make enough coin get their own homes -- homes that have already been built, one should note.

It takes far more coin to build your own home.

You can't say "They should get their own homes" as if that's some easy thing to hand out. It requires time and money and all manner of things.

Farms are not luxurious mansions that anyone can rest in. They vary in size, but stables are certainly larger buildings. The homes the farmers rest in probably only have enough room for their families. If the Elves managed to get enough coin to build their own homes, then they certainly would be welcomed there.

But it's not going to be a handout or something easily earned. That's just delusional.


[quote]

Read. The. Codex.
[/quote]

You mean the one that says the Elves with enough coin buy their own pre-built homes outside the walls of the city or around the dockside areas?

I don't see how that refutes my point of the Elves of Lothering being welcomed by the Humans into their own property to rest, since it's know the Elves work as farmhands, but don't have enough coin to build their own homes.


[quote]Now you're just arguing for the sake of arguing. I was saying more elves moving into human neighborhoods most likely would create more violent backlashes because we see the larger violent reaction from humans to larger numbers of elves moving into their own alienage, and now you're trying to contradict that too?[/quote]

Da ****?

Yes, I recognized your point. I said that there'd be less room in the city, and that's true. For one thing, Denerim has just now fended off the Darkspawn, so the city needs to be repaired first and foremost. For another, goods are going to be scarce due to the majority of the Bannorn -- which is farmland, mostly -- being tainted. That means that the more citizens there are in the city the harder it's going to be to deal with everything. 

The new citizens would need to find new shelter if the Alienage was to be repaired. The humans would as well. Foods would have to be distributed differently, which would create strife on both sides of the fence. 

I am not contradicting anything. You're just seeing what you want to see. 


[quote]
And yet you seem to think that elves moving en masse into human neighborhoods (rather than a few elves at a time) can somehow protect themselves and each other from violent backlashes from humans, rather than creating even bigger backlashes that would still overpower them. Okay, whatever.[/quote]

Way to completely create a strawman! I said the Elves should pretect their own kind that earn a decent living. That could include, I dunno, forays out of the Alienage into those areas to help them. The Elves are not restricted to staying in the Alienage. They can freely explore the city. They just need to take residence in the Alienage.



[quote]Elves move in only a few at a time? It's their own fault they got lynched because 20 or so could have stopped the supposedly small handfull of arsonists (right, because the same number of people would attack a crowd of elves as a small handful). Elves move en masse? It's their own fault they got such a violent backlash because humans would have been fine with a gradual increase in the elven population. Okay, whatever.
[/quote]

You just have a wonderful knack for missing points, creating strawmen arguments, and seeing what you want to see.

The Elves bear part of the blame for why their own kind who make a decent living face such horrific fates. They denounce those Elves as forsaking who they are and abandon them to their fate to the looters and arsonist, and if those Elves return welcome them back as Elves again.

Whereas if they actually helped their brethren move their things into their new home and stayed there for a bit, they could make it so that the looters might not have the courage to go through with such a thing. The arsonists' actions are taking advantage of the Elves inability and lack of desire to stand up for themselves so as to further the rift between the two races while also plundering the goods for themselves.

If the arsonists see that it won't be something easy for them to do, then chances are they'll back off. By allowing these injustices to occur to their own people, they're exacerbating the problem. By denouncing their own people who try to eke out a better life -- a life the Elves should be able to get -- or have relations with humans which might bridge the gap between the two races, then they are not helping the situation.

Note that I never once said the Elves bear the full share of the blame anywhere. I said they are part of the problem. Anyone with an objective outlook on things could see that much. 

The gargantuan influx of Elves to Denerim's Alienage means less room in the Alienage, which means less room in the city potentially as the Elves might need to be housed elsewhere. That in turn leads to a harder way to disperse goods equally, which creates strife and discontent between the impoverished who suffer on both sides.

The Elves simply see one of their own as a Bann and think their future is set and begin a long walk to the Alienage. They are deluding themselves if they think change will happen so easily. First, the Elven Bann has to meet with other banns and arls and even the royalty and talk about these things that will improve the lives of not only the Elves, but the humans as well. They then have to find the necessary funds. They then need to find the necessary people. 

And so many other things that will take weeks or months, if not years, to see to fruition after the Blight.

They are part of why the rioting happened. They are part of the problem. Just as much as the humans who performed the riot in the first place are.

Both sides are to blame, each for their own reasons. But you conveniently ignored the part of my post where I labeled the humans as part of the problem and decided I must be saying the Elves are at fault entirely. Which means that any further discussion of this topic with you is pointless.

But sure, the Elves should just receive handouts. They should receive everything and damn how the world must realistically operate to achieve such things!

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 12 février 2013 - 07:00 .

[Xilizhra]

If the arsonists see that it won't be something easy for them to do, then chances are they'll back off. By allowing these injustices to occur to their own people, they're exacerbating the problem. By denouncing their own people who try to eke out a better life -- a life the Elves should be able to get -- or have relations with humans which might bridge the gap between the two races, then they are not helping the situation.

Actually, it's far more likely they'd just escalate the violence and kill more elves in the process. If there's one thing racists really hate, it's being challenged, especially when they have power, and historically in our own nation, upward mobility for oppressed races was very definitely life-threatening. If you wish to extend this to partially blame black people in the 1890s or Native Americans earlier on for allegedly not helping their attemptedly-upwardly-mobile brethren (and then getting killed for it because the powers-that-be didn't give a ****), feel free.

They are part of why the rioting happened. They are part of the problem.
Just as much as the humans who performed the riot in the first place
are.

Ah, victim-blaming at its finest. It's as though you think that every single elf suddenly decided to coordinate to move to Denerim, as opposed to it being a spontaneous migration. No single elf bears the blame for any of the other elves showing up, beyond familial ties, and hence none of them are at fault for any logistical issues that'd come from all of the elves being there at once. Moreover, it is completely the fault of the rioters for initiating violence to begin with; the fault here only comes in one direction.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 12 février 2013 - 05:34 .

[TEWR]

Xilizhra wrote...

Actually, it's far more likely they'd just escalate the violence and kill more elves in the process. If there's one thing racists really hate, it's being challenged, especially when they have power, and historically in our own nation, upward mobility for oppressed races was very definitely life-threatening. 

If you wish to extend this to partially blame black people in the 1890s or Native Americans earlier on for allegedly not helping their attemptedly-upwardly-mobile brethren (and then getting killed for it because the powers-that-be didn't give a ****), feel free.

I would do no such thing. Though I dislike mentioning it more from a sense that it makes me sound like I'm saying "Hey, I'm this!" as opposed to any other reason, I'm Native American in part. I know a fair deal of how Native Americans suffered. More then I do about the Elves, for sure.

But it's also different in that the Native Americans were the original people in America and they continuously made deals with the government to try and keep whatever land they could. In the end, those deals were broken by the government more and more. 

The Elves, however, haven't done such a thing -- though some elements of Native American culture play a part in the Elven culture. They were the original people on Thedas, certainly. But they haven't made many deals with humans for them to keep their land which Thedosian government then broke.

The only one there is for a fact is the Dales, but that's not an entirely apt comparison and the circumstances of that breaking are murky -- though I err on the side of Orlais/the Chantry being the ones at fault entirely.

At the very least, I'd concede that fringe elements of the Elves may have created the problems, but I'm more convinced the Orlesians hired Elves to give cause to a war to further their expansionism which backfired.

And then succeeded.

Anyway, while historically oppressed races have suffered violently it also took much for the influential people of said race to begin to have an impact on that. Martin Luther King, Jr. for instance, is one of the most well-known figures in the equal treatment of black people. Rosa Parks as well. But my knowledge of what happened prior is limited. Schools tend to omit important facts relating to anything in history, so I can't speak of much prior to MLK Jr. aside from "Lincoln freed the slaves". And one of the few things I do know is that in every war African Americans played a part in it. 

And the things involving MLK  were not without their violence as well, but peaceful demonstrations on the part of the two figures helped demonstrate and influence the growing movement. 

It was also helped by technologically where we were, financially where we were, agriculturally where we were, and how we didn't have Darkspawn to contend with. And how we could review history in more detail then what a game limits us to. 

At any rate, whether the violence would continue, escalate, or diminish all depends on the mindset of the Elves and Humans. A craven human just looking for a means to seem powerful might back off if his power was confronted. A douchebag human who doesn't care for the Elves might just gather some of his buddies and things would get bad.

I'd also say that if the Elves could bear their own arms, things would also improve on their part. Which is why I continue to say Highever is more progressive. The Elves there can defend themselves and even craft weapons.

But with all this quote separating and how my posts span the previous pages, I'm beginning to lose track of what I was originally arguing aside from that Highever's more progressive for Elves then elsewhere. 

Ah, victim-blaming at its finest. It's as though you think that every single elf suddenly decided to coordinate to move to Denerim, as opposed to it being a spontaneous migration.

No single elf bears the blame for any of the other elves showing up, beyond familial ties, and hence none of them are at fault for any logistical issues that'd come from all of the elves being there at once. Moreover, it is completely the fault of the rioters for initiating violence to begin with; the fault here only comes in one direction.

I am not saying any lone Elf is responsible for the circumstances, but rather that the influx of Elves itself was responsible.

The slide itself says that the Warden's work as Bann made Elves from the land move towards Denerim. The Warden was apparently doing some good and the word of this spread to the other Elves outside of Denerim's walls. Elves would spread it to other Elves and possibly talk of how X was heading to Denerim. Word like that would spread like wildfire.

Assuming of course, that's what happened. It all depends on just how the Elves did indeed move to Denerim. Did word of Elves going there spread to other Elves, prompting them to do the same? If so, then the Elves do bear blame because if they knew about other Elves moving there and went, I'd say they do bear some partial blame. They would've known about other Elves moving there and gone anyway because "Hell, it sucks here and it's going to be better there!"

And if so the Elves saw was one of their own as a Bann and nothing more. That's all they saw, because they were so desperate for a better life. They and the humans hindered progress and kept things the same. Who's more at fault? The Humans, certainly.

However, perhaps I am engaging in victim blaming. If I knew more of the circumstances other then a vague slide that goes "The Warden did good, Elves came to here, **** happened" I could form a better idea of everything. With only that lone slide to go off of, I can only surmise that word spread from Elf to Elf and the major influx occurred as a result, with disregard to how hard change truly would be. 

I won't concede my belief on the matter, but I will say that based on what I do know and based on what I am trying to glean from it that it could be victim blaming when they weren't to blame to begin with, if they indeed weren't so -- again, it depends on the exact details of the move to Denerim. 

So I choose to assume that the Elves knew of other Elves going there and moved anyway, and thus bought part of the blame. That's the most likely thing I can see from The Warden doing some minor good, word of it spreading, Elves moving there, and **** hitting the fan.

Although it's not like we can really count the epilogue slides any more. 

Still, I maintain that a slow influx would've been better. There'd probably still be tensions, but nothing so violent. And it could've been better handled.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 12 février 2013 - 06:53 .

[Xilizhra]

Still, I maintain that a slow influx would've been better. There'd probably still be tensions, but nothing so violent. And it could've been better handled.

From an ideal point of view, perhaps. But how do you ask anyone to stay in crappy circumstances for longer because they happened to draw a short straw? Especially when there aren't, in fact, any bodies of oversight trying to regulate this? Moreover, this is all almost irrelevant because the true problem was with human conduct.

[TEWR]

Xilizhra wrote...

Still, I maintain that a slow influx would've been better. There'd probably still be tensions, but nothing so violent. And it could've been better handled.

From an ideal point of view, perhaps. But how do you ask anyone to stay in crappy circumstances for longer because they happened to draw a short straw? Especially when there aren't, in fact, any bodies of oversight trying to regulate this? Moreover, this is all almost irrelevant because the true problem was with human conduct.

Perhaps if the Bann himself sent word of this to the other Elves in other places? If they truly valued the opportunity for change, maybe they'd listen to the Bann's words. I'd send word out to Highever's Alienage -- which is more progressive -- that the Elves should remain there for the time being. 

I might even work on getting Banns named in Gwaren's Alienage and Highever's. That way, it'd lessen the burden the Bann would have to deal with in regards to other Elves coming to Denerim, but would also increase the chance of change for the better. 

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 12 février 2013 - 06:23 .

[Xilizhra]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Still, I maintain that a slow influx would've been better. There'd probably still be tensions, but nothing so violent. And it could've been better handled.

From an ideal point of view, perhaps. But how do you ask anyone to stay in crappy circumstances for longer because they happened to draw a short straw? Especially when there aren't, in fact, any bodies of oversight trying to regulate this? Moreover, this is all almost irrelevant because the true problem was with human conduct.

Perhaps if the Bann himself sent word of this to the other Elves in other places? If they truly valued the opportunity for change, maybe they'd listen to the Bann's words. I'd send word out to Highever's Alienage -- which is more progressive -- that the Elves should remain there for the time being. 

I might even work on getting Banns named in Gwaren's Alienage and Highever's. That way, it'd lessen the burden the Bann would have to deal with in regards to other Elves coming to Denerim, but would also increase the chance of change for the better. 

I've gone against one of my principles by butting into an argument between two other people, so I'll wait to continue this until Faerunner catches up with the discussion.

[HiroVoid]

One thing I'll mention about Nan on that day is she was under incredible stress and frustration trying to get everything ready for all the soldiers. She's much more forthcoming after you threaten to cut her tongue out.