18 réponses à ce sujet

[Dorrieb]

Richard Cobbett speaks words of wisdom, and he is also tasty and nutritious.

http://www.pcgamer.c...m-dragon-age-3/

[Allan Schumacher]

The problem stems when someone states that "objectively" something is anything, because people only use it in a way to dismiss the other perspective as being less meaningful.

When you also include the term "steaming pile of trash" any hope of having an "objective" discussion is out.

If you like DA2 then yay for you. If you don't like DA2 then yay for you. Continuing to sidetrack discussions by making obviously fruitless claims that people consistently disagree with is not productive. Insanity is doing the same thing repeatedly and expecting different results.

[Allan Schumacher]

I wasn't trying to have an objective discussion I was merely attempting to support fellow poster birdman hero!

If you weren't trying to have an objective discussion, then from what it looks like you were trying to stir the pot by antagonizing those that you know that post would bother.

Unless your purpose is to make posts that are also steaming piles of trash, I suggest you stop making posts that are objectively steaming piles of trash that will serve little else but antagonize those that you know it will disagree with.

You failed at your support, and you're in denial that people like the game m8. Sooner you realize that, the better off you'll be.



Huh!  Isn't it FUN unilaterally deciding the quality of someone else's contributions? Since I'm not particularly convinced you'll understand the irony, and this goes for everyone regardless of whether you enjoyed DA2 or not, don't waste anyone's time attempting to critique a game and then substantiate your subjective opinion as being anything resembling objectivity. Even if you DO want to make a genuine objective breakdown to show how people are wrong, it's not going to be productive, and it's just going to cause bickering to happen and ultimately leave me increasingly ornery.

Furthermore, and again for everybody, if someone IS going around saying "Uh, objectively this game is bad/good," stop taking the bait.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 10 février 2013 - 01:50 .

[Allan Schumacher]

Despite the underhanded insult (wont understand the irony? so cruel) I will attempt to comply with your desires.

You are correct, that actually was uncalled for. I was in a bit of a cranky mood as it is and I do apologize for that. I used it as a lead in for a segue to everyone, but didn't need to call out whether you'd understand it specifically. I could have just as easily said "And just for everyone's benefit" or something similar.

Cheers.

[Allan Schumacher]

I don't think I said anything about a "steaming pile of trash," Allan. But if you're trying to illustrate how not to have a constructive discussion, made up quotes are a good start.

You didn't. Someone else did.

[Allan Schumacher]

Zelto wrote...

Allan, since you are posting on the thread I assume your read the artical (sorry if not, but personally think its a good read so would advise it)

Without suggesting in anyway that your responce should be binding, what is your opinion on the suggestion in the artical?
You always seem very franc in your evaluation of any game in discussion (Biowares or not), so would be interested to know whether as a game developer you agree with some or the comments. I am aware you can't be very specific as it may be taken as a suggestion what WILL happen rather than what you would personally like.

The problem I had with the article upon reading it were some of the gaffes.  Loghain's beard, and some of the strange stuff like "bad" British accents (that a genuine British accent is a "bad" accent reminds me of those that thought that an actual french speaking Corinne was a "bad french accent").


IMO it's pretty indiscernable from other fan feedback.  It's just granted an extra degree of authenticity/exposure because it's a PC Gamer editorial.

[Fiddzz]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Zelto wrote...

Allan, since you are posting on the thread I assume your read the artical (sorry if not, but personally think its a good read so would advise it)

Without suggesting in anyway that your responce should be binding, what is your opinion on the suggestion in the artical?
You always seem very franc in your evaluation of any game in discussion (Biowares or not), so would be interested to know whether as a game developer you agree with some or the comments. I am aware you can't be very specific as it may be taken as a suggestion what WILL happen rather than what you would personally like.

The problem I had with the article upon reading it were some of the gaffes.  Loghain's beard, and some of the strange stuff like "bad" British accents (that a genuine British accent is a "bad" accent reminds me of those that thought that an actual french speaking Corinne was a "bad french accent").


IMO it's pretty indiscernable from other fan feedback.  It's just granted an extra degree of authenticity/exposure because it's a PC Gamer editorial.

This.

My problem with it as well was the gaffes, and lack of research. ie. "going forward they should have playable races" (even though its alraedy been stated the game is human only.)

[Allan Schumacher]

Which I don't see in the article? It looks like the author edited that and fixed that if you look in the comments section, he acknowledged that was a mistake.

It's still something I expect better of. It's easy to edit it after the fact when the throngs of hatemail start coming in pointing out your error.

As others have said, Richard Cobbett being British , maybe has a
better ear for that sort of thing. My issue with male Hawke was with how
exaggerated and over the top he always seemed to be. And the British
accent kind of accentuated that where regardless of how authentic his
British accent, it felt very theatrical more often than not.

If Richard Cobbet is British, then I hold his chastizing of a "bad British accent" even more against him.

Sure, but it doesn't invalidate the feedback either.

No, it just means I didn't get much out of it that I haven't already heard. In terms of its overall contribution, he's basically a fan that didn't care for DAO, prefers TW2, and just as the advantage of having a PC Gamer article to attach his views on to. Should I take his concerns any more than yours because he can post it with a PC Gamer sticker?

Just because some feedback has the occassional factual gaffe doesn't invalidate the entire thing.

No it doesn't, but it's going to make me lose interest really quickly.

Try giving a presentation in front of professionals and have your power point slides containing errors in it. People start toning out because they don't believe you know what you're talking about anymore.

I'm sorry if my feedback to the article offended you, but it's the gist of what I got from the article (which is, nothing I didn't already know). I'm not going to give it any additional consideration simply because he writes for PC Gamer and you're just a BSN poster.

It's a fan piece and it's what he would like to see in DA3.  I'll collate it with the other stuff other fans have put in as feedback.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 11 février 2013 - 04:44 .

[Allan Schumacher]

In another note:

Cleaned up some spam. Lets not have another thread derail into "The Witcher 2 is so awesome and I hate Bioware"

[Fiddzz]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Allan Schumacher: Since you're discussing expectations - being the owner of a retail business, I would have expected better customer service responses from nearly all gaming companies. Yet - I find their responses to most criticism reactionary and emotive.

If I stood in front of one of the people that keep my business open - and spoke to them the way I've seen many gaming company representatives speak to their customers - I'd be closing my doors.

It would seem - it is the nature of the industry to promote behavior which is otherwise unacceptable in the "real world". It is certainly the nature of the internet.

As a note - I'm not talking about your opinion on his opinion. Your commentary about expecting better simply seemed an apt segue in something that has personally surprised (and shocked and irritated me) about the gaming industry for some years.

That the target audience seems willing to accept it is equally fascinating - because I'm positive they'd react very different if the things I've read (Blizzard is particularly bad) as responses were said face to face.

This is kind of off topic but thought I would chime in, I thought Allans response was apt, not negative not inciting anything, I felt the same when I read it, "this is an opinion piece that is right in line with what i've already been reading and hearing about on our forums/twitter for the last 5 months."  I added it to my list of pages/articles about "what people want" for DA3.  (I REALLY agree with Allan about when people miss facts, they tend to start loseing me)

As for your point, I see it kind of the other way, if people had to talk in person I don't think there would be "you should go die" bullying posts from people on the forums because they don't like a game.  (using Blizzard as the example, google Jay Wilson)

But alas that is niether here nor there.  Back on topic -> we listen to articles like this and put just as much weight into them as forum posts (well most.)  (the face that journalists and average gamers are all saying the same thing is actually pretty cool)  

We're listening, keep it coming.

[Fiddzz]

Renmiri1 wrote...

But it does give me an idea on what BW should include on DAI: A mud wrestling match between DAI developers and TW3 developers <_<

It seems a lot of the press and posters here are dying to see it 

We would win with pure numbers I think.  

But thats a common misconception, were all fans of each others games.  And TW3's release info got passed around the office pretty quick, looks awesome, I hope they make it like what my head is thinking it'll be from that list. 

[Fiddzz]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

^

Blair, I agree with the vast majority of your post, but saying that people would never say "I think you should go die" if they were face to face... well, I'm not sure if you've ever worked retail (like the poster who you were replying to said they do), especially during the holidays, but people are downright HOSTILE if you tick them off on any given day.

I think the difference may be that when you see someone going off on an employee, they are A) usually yelling at an employee who has no control over what issue the person is having and/or even if you agree with what the person is yelling about, you usually sympathize with the employee being berated. On the Internet, though, people are more likely to chime in, which introduces some serious issues of escalation, which where I think the majority of the problems stem from.

People aren't seen as yelling at a low-level cashier, but as yelling at the company in general, or the head developers who made it the way it is. They now HAVE the person responsible (or so they think, anyway) and they can vent at them and they will learn their lesson (again, or so they think).

Anyway, like I said, I agree with almost all of your post. But an angry retail customer can be just as crazy and rage-filled as any forumite I've seen.

I did McDonalds for 4 years, EVERYONE should have to work retail at some point, you learn to be nice 

Angry people can be anywhere, but the anomitiy of the internet leads to far more of the EXTREME hate, which is where I was going on that.  But I agree with you.

[Fiddzz]

No i was refering to that when you work retail type jobs, you tend to get yelled at a lot for no reason. Working at one as a kid made me NEVER get mad as an adult at a place like that. "sir your big mac will be 5min sorry for the wait" me: "no problem"

[Allan Schumacher]

I consider Allan clever enough to express what he means and myself clever enough to discern that meaning. He took that article as an attack on Team Bioware (which it was not) and responded as an angry fan would, in a reactionary and thoughtless manner. So no, I don't believe there is any misunderstanding at all.

I didn't take the article as an attack on Team BioWare. I took it as a fan that happens to write for PC Gamer. I'm curious if it would have been cited had he stated that he loved DA2 and would love for it to be more like DA2 than any other game.


I haven't read the whole thread (although my curiosity is piqued now, so I likely well), so I'm sure there's a post somewhere where you outline that I am responding in a reactionary and thoughtless manner. If you'd prefer, I could add some extra layers of PR speak to my responses. /shrug

The only person here, IMO, that has some valid retort to my being snarky is probably Brockololly.


EDIT:  Found it

Also, there is such a thing as respect for one's profession. Forum
posters being rude and disrespectful is nothing new, but when someone
with an official Bioware avatar dismisses a professional piece as
'indiscernable from other fan feedback' it probably goes a long way
toward explaining why these forums are often such a horrible place. You
don't have to like the article, but I'm very disappointed to see you
join in the stoning.

Wasn't a stoning.

You can take it as a diss all you want.  I have no doubt I cannot change your mind.

His article is indiscernable in that he's literally just gone and said the exact same things that I have read on these forums (and others) hundreds of times.

Now, if you wish to grant him additional credibility because he's writing an editorial for PC Gamer (why is his word stronger than yours, given the content of the article) that's your prerogative.  As it is, however, it's an editorial written by a fan that says the same things as other fans.  He just has the advantage of having a podium by which to speak from.

Should I think less of the article had it been posted on a blog somewhere, instead of PC Gamer?  Is it any more ore less valid if that were the case?  If an internet poster posted that as a thread on the BSN, should I treat him any different than Robert because he's not writing for PC gamer, and sharing his opinion while not getting paid to do so?

If the author had said "Dorrieb" and it was posted on Tumblr I'd consider the feedback just as valued and just as relevant.


I *do* have qualms with gaming journalism in general, but this article is just an editorial which I have learned are writers that share their thoughts.  I'm not about to go off onto that tangent on this thread, however.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 12 février 2013 - 05:38 .

[Allan Schumacher]

Just to be clear as I go over the thread again: Firky was spot on:

(I know you weren't replying to me) but I've been paid to write an opinion column on games for 5.5 years. I don't really write things like, "This is childish, boring." etc, most of the time, I tend to make fun of myself rather than others, but that's what an opinion column is/can be. I read my colleagues' opinion columns every month and they can be pretty brutal, at times.

I took his article as an opinion piece.

I am pretty sure he wrote it the way that he did because it'd help promote discussion (even through controversy... here I am discussing it more!).  Stuff like Loghain's beard was probably because it was hastily written to meet a deadline.


Note that all this started because someone solicited my opinion of it. If you think that my response was unprofessional, that's fine. As long as you aren't holding my opinion to a different standard than Robert's, I have no issue with it.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 12 février 2013 - 06:09 .

[Allan Schumacher]

Travie wrote...

Have we really got to the point that even developers don't take gaming journalists very seriously?

Eh, my dislike of gaming journalism is probably more tied to "Allan the discerning human being" than "Allan the BioWare employee."

THere are aspects of it, such as the gratuitous chain linking (that often help to only spread rumors) as well as the recent article outlying how easy it is to get them to run with something (which is exacerbated by the chain linking) despite the "leak" later demonstrating that it was all just a ruse.  Though that's symptomatic of an audience that wants to just gobble it all up and it's a race for clicks.

But that's neither here nor there for this thread.

[Fiddzz]

Dorrieb wrote...

stormhit13 wrote...
Every single opinion journalist on the planet has thicker skin than you're giving them credit for. You might not have the stomach for it, but I assure you that you're defending someone who most certainly would not feel wronged by anything in this thread.

True, Richard is a big boy writer.

But think. In this thread, Richard has been called a hack, an idiot, a douche, a wanker, and worse. Does Allan Schumacher endorse talk like that? I'm going to guess that no, he does not. But his response seems to signal that he does. It tells them that he's okay with it, that he is on their side, that their behaviour has his stamp of approval -- his official stamp of approval, because it comes with 'BioWare' on it.

And they love him for it, because it means that 'he is not a corporate drone', he 'tells it like it is', he is not afraid to 'call 'em as he sees 'em' and if that offends you, 'too bad'.

Now flash forward to the release of DA3 and, god forbid, it falls short of fans' expectations and the forums explode like a septic tank in summer. Hundreds of posters are rude and abusive to BioWare and its employees. In vain, moderators try to explain to them that it is okay to express negative opinions, but not by being abusive and disrespectful. Only they don't think they are being abusive, do they? They're only telling it like it is and calling it as they see it, and who taught them that?

That's all the point I wanted to make.

No it doesn't.  He made his own opinion, one that I share, and that is all.  He did not endorse anything else.  To make the conjecture that because he is not going through each post in this thread and saying what you want, which is to tell everyone who posts something against the article that they are wrong, he is endorsing what others say is a bit of a leap.

Then using your made up example to project the future of how people will act and that they learned it from the dev's.... going a bit far.

---if you actually read what me and Allan posted too... non of it was negative towards the writer or article, besides wanting to get facts correct and doing a little research.  Which is a fair critisism.

When we say we consider it in the same vien as forum posts its because it is. I collect all the articles like this, as well as the forum posts "lets talk about..." "top 5 things" as well as this thread, internal studies, play tests etc etc. collegate it and filter out the information for the senior leads as part of a side project I like to do.  So they can stay up with what people are talking about and wanting.  It is not a negitive thing.

[Fiddzz]

Firky wrote...

I jumped into the thread several pages back because the dev comments irked me slightly - the one about it being indistinguishable from fan feedback.

I think because,
a) Some fan feedback can be really good - fans are knowledgeable.
Writing about games can be quite a time consuming and thankless task, generally (even with the money.) It's really nice to be complimented on good writing. (When it's good.)
c) They're obviously employing the guy because he has professional qualities they want, which includes all that stuff like making deadlines, knowing the audience etc.
d) People tend to tar all of games commentary with the same brush when, IMO, it's radically different between people, outlets, genres, criteria, kind of pieces, etc etc.

But, that's the "person who writes about games'" perspective. Allan's perspective is the dev's and, if he read it looking for useful feedback, like a dev might do, I'm guessing, then it's probably fairly easy to see that it really wasn't any more useful than all the rest of the fan feedback he's read. It just genuinely wasn't much use to him.

If you kept reading you would have seen that both Allan and I do not equate "fan/forum feedback" as a bad thing.  Go back and review both mine and his comments about it, mine specifically, as I collegate this article WITH fan feedback, as it is all useful.

[Allan Schumacher]

No, they don't use the same format. That's what I tried to show by presenting viedos which, IMO, can't be replicated by a Wheel. That's my evidence. If you want to refute my evidence, you can either dismiss it out of hand, which doesn't help your case, or watch it, & address it.

Structurally, the conversations in DA2 are done the same way as DAO. Given DAO had a response restriction of 5 lines, it would actually be not be all that difficult to use the wheel to display each of the 5 options without even using an investigate hub, since the wheel innately supports 6 options (5 if you remove one for the investigate).

So the issue you have isn't with the wheel itself, but rather how we use the wheel and what type of information we wish to present to the player to help inform their responses.