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[Fiddzz]

Renmiri1 wrote...

But it does give me an idea on what BW should include on DAI: A mud wrestling match between DAI developers and TW3 developers <_<

It seems a lot of the press and posters here are dying to see it 

We would win with pure numbers I think.  

But thats a common misconception, were all fans of each others games.  And TW3's release info got passed around the office pretty quick, looks awesome, I hope they make it like what my head is thinking it'll be from that list. 

[Potato Cat]

About the "bad British accents", I am English and I'm afraid I have to agree with the author. Not that the accent itself was badly done, like the Kendra's accent from Buffy The Vampire Slayer, (though it is supposed to be from an obscure Jamaican region, it still sounds like a dodgy attempt), it's more that the accent doesn't fit the character, someone from a rural farming community. That accent is found more among the wealthy, not from someone from a village such as Lothering. I think it's just my opposition to the only English accents people seem to be aware of are the posh accents and the cockney accents, (typically used only if the character is uneducated and or a thief). We have like seventy other great accents, please use them!

[Sir George Parr]

With regards to Hawke's accent, i always thought that Hawke took after the mother with her upper class background, so thats how i rationalised the upper class voice. But for someone born and raised in Lothering i would have imagined something more like an Worcestershire accent or a Carrot Cruncher from Somerset, but it depends how it sounds to an audience in North American.

[Fiddzz]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

^

Blair, I agree with the vast majority of your post, but saying that people would never say "I think you should go die" if they were face to face... well, I'm not sure if you've ever worked retail (like the poster who you were replying to said they do), especially during the holidays, but people are downright HOSTILE if you tick them off on any given day.

I think the difference may be that when you see someone going off on an employee, they are A) usually yelling at an employee who has no control over what issue the person is having and/or even if you agree with what the person is yelling about, you usually sympathize with the employee being berated. On the Internet, though, people are more likely to chime in, which introduces some serious issues of escalation, which where I think the majority of the problems stem from.

People aren't seen as yelling at a low-level cashier, but as yelling at the company in general, or the head developers who made it the way it is. They now HAVE the person responsible (or so they think, anyway) and they can vent at them and they will learn their lesson (again, or so they think).

Anyway, like I said, I agree with almost all of your post. But an angry retail customer can be just as crazy and rage-filled as any forumite I've seen.

I did McDonalds for 4 years, EVERYONE should have to work retail at some point, you learn to be nice 

Angry people can be anywhere, but the anomitiy of the internet leads to far more of the EXTREME hate, which is where I was going on that.  But I agree with you.

[Daerog]

I understand wanting the game to be more easily immersed in with the how accents are in the real world, but this could just be argued that the accents, the posh and such, are just how they developed in those regions... What would really be bizarre/bad is if everyone who grew up in the same region and time all had various, unrelated accents...

Although, I don't know all the science and philosophy behind language, so I can give it a pass like that, but if it contradicts what language philosophers and scientists say, then nevermind! Just a passing thought.

[Swagger7]

Blair Brown wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

^

Blair, I agree with the vast majority of your post, but saying that people would never say "I think you should go die" if they were face to face... well, I'm not sure if you've ever worked retail (like the poster who you were replying to said they do), especially during the holidays, but people are downright HOSTILE if you tick them off on any given day.

I think the difference may be that when you see someone going off on an employee, they are A) usually yelling at an employee who has no control over what issue the person is having and/or even if you agree with what the person is yelling about, you usually sympathize with the employee being berated. On the Internet, though, people are more likely to chime in, which introduces some serious issues of escalation, which where I think the majority of the problems stem from.

People aren't seen as yelling at a low-level cashier, but as yelling at the company in general, or the head developers who made it the way it is. They now HAVE the person responsible (or so they think, anyway) and they can vent at them and they will learn their lesson (again, or so they think).

Anyway, like I said, I agree with almost all of your post. But an angry retail customer can be just as crazy and rage-filled as any forumite I've seen.

I did McDonalds for 4 years, EVERYONE should have to work retail at some point, you learn to be nice 

Angry people can be anywhere, but the anomitiy of the internet leads to far more of the EXTREME hate, which is where I was going on that.  But I agree with you.

Or public sector customer service.  The public are even more entitled, and ther managers actually have even less leeway in dealing with them.

[rapscallioness]

Yeah, ppl will say anything they want to your face. They really will. Lol.

I work in casino. Craps dealer, and BlackJack. Nothing like dealing w/drunk ppl, w/anger mgmt issues that are losing their money. Ha! Good times! But casino is a bit different than say, bank teller. I've definitely got more leeway.

As far as this article...meh. "This is what We want"? Uh, no. I want to see the Deep Roads. And I like a voiced PC.

This article reads more like an old BSN forum post than sum good journo. Maybe he's a guest writer? Providing a fan op-ed?

smh.

[Commander Kurt]

Dorrieb wrote...

Commander Kurt wrote...
...I'm curious about what you think made it professional.

Kurt, the definition of a professional is someone who gets paid to do what he does. For example, if you make your living as a mechanic, then you are a 'professional mechanic', but if you just like to tinker with engines then you are an 'amateur mechanic'.

Even if the article was, in your mind AND the dev's, akin to Shakespeare...

Sigh... 'Shakespeare' is a slang epithet for 'writer', especially in smart-alecky old-brooklin-y type speech that might include a 'Whaddaya' in it. For example:

(3:32)

I am not comparing Richard  to Shakespeare, or 'What we Want to See from Dragon Age 3' to 'Coriolanus'. The fact that I even have to explain this...

I'm sorry to see you took two words from my post and ignored the rest (including the whole point of it). It's a bit strange since I repeated myself like silly, but I'll just take it as a cue that you don't really want to discuss the matter. Too bad.

[Thetford]

As a Brit, I had no qualms with the accent used, the only issue I had was that it didn't seem to suit the default Hawke, but once I tweaked him in Character Creation, I was content. I'd find it odd if they had given Hawke and family a rural accent, on account that nobody in Lothering in DAO had one. I guess maybe it is the stressing of the words, as it would be something I am less likely to notice.

[Kidd]

Blair Brown wrote...

I did McDonalds for 4 years, EVERYONE should have to work retail at some point, you learn to be nice 

Clearly, Canadian and Swedish McDonalds are not the same. Suppose Canadian McDonalds is a lot closer to the American one? They were really nice when I was abroad the other year.

[LPPrince]

Some American Mickey D's have kind and considerate employees. I can remember my fair share of coolio people working there.

And then. THEN. Then you have the douche canoes that work there. Those people. THEM. The OTHER breed.

But whatever, Big Macs and Filet O Fishes are worth it.

[Dorrieb]

Commander Kurt wrote...
I'm sorry to see you took two words from my post and ignored the rest (including the whole point of it). It's a bit strange since I repeated myself like silly, but I'll just take it as a cue that you don't really want to discuss the matter. Too bad.

Sincere apologies, Kurt, you are absolutely right. If anything I'm angry at myself for having dragged Richard's name through what I can only describe as a pond of swarming anusfish. Of course I expected some nastiness, but I swear, not this much, and I especially didn't expect it to come from Teacher, if you get my meaning. Mind you, Richard is a big journalist and is used to this kind of thing, but this one is all down to me and well, eww.

But you asked a reasonable question and you deserve a reasonable answer. My answer is that there is meaning not only in the words that we write, but also in the tone and context of those words. I consider Allan clever enough to express what he means and myself clever enough to discern that meaning. He took that article as an attack on Team Bioware (which it was not) and responded as an angry fan would, in a reactionary and thoughtless manner. So no, I don't believe there is any misunderstanding at all.

[Fiddzz]

No i was refering to that when you work retail type jobs, you tend to get yelled at a lot for no reason. Working at one as a kid made me NEVER get mad as an adult at a place like that. "sir your big mac will be 5min sorry for the wait" me: "no problem"

[Cimeas]

I don't want some uneducated slang accent for my character. The Queen's English will suffice. Also, Hawke was hardly Prince Charles was he? Perhaps he went to private school, but he didn't go to Eton.

Also, it makes sense for someone from a rich family to have a posh accent.

[CyberMurph]

I'm sorry, but after playing DA2, ME2&3 and SW:TOR, I cannot got back to a silent character. It feels like something is missing, not to mention a little creepy.

[Medhia Nox]

@Blair Brown: I did mention that it was not specifically about Allen's opinion of some PC Gamer's opinion that I was talking about.

It was simply something that he had said - that he was surprised by the behavior of a professional - which made me think of something that was admittedly off topic.

That being said - I have diffused many volatile situations where people treated my workers like total garbage.

A rare few HAVE been in a fashion that in no uncertain terms ensured they would not be returning to my store - but those were the most extreme cases.

Anyway - I won't continue to derail - I just thought it important to state that I was in no way singling out Mr. Schumacher for something I think is endemic to the gaming industry as a whole.

[Kidd]

Blair Brown wrote...

No i was refering to that when you work retail type jobs, you tend to get yelled at a lot for no reason. Working at one as a kid made me NEVER get mad as an adult at a place like that. "sir your big mac will be 5min sorry for the wait" me: "no problem"

Oh. Is this the part where I point to my Merrill avatar and claim I was pretending to be aloof? =)

Thanks for explaining though, this makes more sense in context =) Feel a little silly now that I misread it the way I did originally at all.

[Renmiri1]

Dorrieb wrote...
.... If anything I'm angry at myself for having dragged Richard's name through what I can only describe as a pond of swarming anusfish. Of course I expected some nastiness, but I swear, not this much, and I especially didn't expect it to come from Teacher, if you get my meanin....

 My answer is that there is meaning not only in the words that we write, but also in the tone and context of those words. I consider Allan clever enough to express what he means and myself clever enough to discern that meaning. He took that article as an attack on Team Bioware (which it was not) and responded as an angry fan would, in a reactionary and thoughtless manner. So no, I don't believe there is any misunderstanding at all.

You seem to be taking criticism to the article rather personally. Why is that ?

When  you post a link to a badly researched opinion piece, you should expect people disagreeing with it and pointing out it's flaws. What were you expecting ? Praise for getting the game details wrong ? Admiration for calling things "Childish. Boring" ? Kudos for bringing up another game developer to compare and proceeding to not compare anything relevant to both games ?

Next time, I suggest you try to put your own wish list in your own words and as you have seen from the Bioware people's response here, they will give you the same respect they gave the opinion piece. More even, since you own the game. 

[Kidd]

A writer should be able to separate criticism of their work and their self. If you get too attached to what you write, you and your texts will both suffer from it.

Just some lessons I've learnt.

[EpicBoot2daFace]

Blair Brown wrote...

No i was refering to that when you work retail type jobs, you tend to get yelled at a lot for no reason. Working at one as a kid made me NEVER get mad as an adult at a place like that. "sir your big mac will be 5min sorry for the wait" me: "no problem"

I was always nice to the people preparing my food before working at a job like that. The only difference now is that I dislike the general public more as a result.

[Travie]

I'm glad they talked about the core problem of DA2, it felt unpolished and rushed.

[Allan Schumacher]

I consider Allan clever enough to express what he means and myself clever enough to discern that meaning. He took that article as an attack on Team Bioware (which it was not) and responded as an angry fan would, in a reactionary and thoughtless manner. So no, I don't believe there is any misunderstanding at all.

I didn't take the article as an attack on Team BioWare. I took it as a fan that happens to write for PC Gamer. I'm curious if it would have been cited had he stated that he loved DA2 and would love for it to be more like DA2 than any other game.


I haven't read the whole thread (although my curiosity is piqued now, so I likely well), so I'm sure there's a post somewhere where you outline that I am responding in a reactionary and thoughtless manner. If you'd prefer, I could add some extra layers of PR speak to my responses. /shrug

The only person here, IMO, that has some valid retort to my being snarky is probably Brockololly.


EDIT:  Found it

Also, there is such a thing as respect for one's profession. Forum
posters being rude and disrespectful is nothing new, but when someone
with an official Bioware avatar dismisses a professional piece as
'indiscernable from other fan feedback' it probably goes a long way
toward explaining why these forums are often such a horrible place. You
don't have to like the article, but I'm very disappointed to see you
join in the stoning.

Wasn't a stoning.

You can take it as a diss all you want.  I have no doubt I cannot change your mind.

His article is indiscernable in that he's literally just gone and said the exact same things that I have read on these forums (and others) hundreds of times.

Now, if you wish to grant him additional credibility because he's writing an editorial for PC Gamer (why is his word stronger than yours, given the content of the article) that's your prerogative.  As it is, however, it's an editorial written by a fan that says the same things as other fans.  He just has the advantage of having a podium by which to speak from.

Should I think less of the article had it been posted on a blog somewhere, instead of PC Gamer?  Is it any more ore less valid if that were the case?  If an internet poster posted that as a thread on the BSN, should I treat him any different than Robert because he's not writing for PC gamer, and sharing his opinion while not getting paid to do so?

If the author had said "Dorrieb" and it was posted on Tumblr I'd consider the feedback just as valued and just as relevant.


I *do* have qualms with gaming journalism in general, but this article is just an editorial which I have learned are writers that share their thoughts.  I'm not about to go off onto that tangent on this thread, however.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 12 février 2013 - 05:38 .

[Travie]

Have we really got to the point that even developers don't take gaming journalists very seriously?

[Allan Schumacher]

Just to be clear as I go over the thread again: Firky was spot on:

(I know you weren't replying to me) but I've been paid to write an opinion column on games for 5.5 years. I don't really write things like, "This is childish, boring." etc, most of the time, I tend to make fun of myself rather than others, but that's what an opinion column is/can be. I read my colleagues' opinion columns every month and they can be pretty brutal, at times.

I took his article as an opinion piece.

I am pretty sure he wrote it the way that he did because it'd help promote discussion (even through controversy... here I am discussing it more!).  Stuff like Loghain's beard was probably because it was hastily written to meet a deadline.


Note that all this started because someone solicited my opinion of it. If you think that my response was unprofessional, that's fine. As long as you aren't holding my opinion to a different standard than Robert's, I have no issue with it.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 12 février 2013 - 06:09 .

[Allan Schumacher]

Travie wrote...

Have we really got to the point that even developers don't take gaming journalists very seriously?

Eh, my dislike of gaming journalism is probably more tied to "Allan the discerning human being" than "Allan the BioWare employee."

THere are aspects of it, such as the gratuitous chain linking (that often help to only spread rumors) as well as the recent article outlying how easy it is to get them to run with something (which is exacerbated by the chain linking) despite the "leak" later demonstrating that it was all just a ruse.  Though that's symptomatic of an audience that wants to just gobble it all up and it's a race for clicks.

But that's neither here nor there for this thread.