588 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

Finally got curious and read the article.

I agreed with some points.

Others, not so much.

Overall it's an opinion piece. Not much different than mine or anyone else's save this guy likely got paid to write it down.

[Commander Kurt]

Dorrieb wrote...

Commander Kurt wrote...
I'm sorry to see you took two words from my post and ignored the rest (including the whole point of it). It's a bit strange since I repeated myself like silly, but I'll just take it as a cue that you don't really want to discuss the matter. Too bad.

Sincere apologies, Kurt, you are absolutely right. If anything I'm angry at myself for having dragged Richard's name through what I can only describe as a pond of swarming anusfish. Of course I expected some nastiness, but I swear, not this much, and I especially didn't expect it to come from Teacher, if you get my meaning. Mind you, Richard is a big journalist and is used to this kind of thing, but this one is all down to me and well, eww.

But you asked a reasonable question and you deserve a reasonable answer. My answer is that there is meaning not only in the words that we write, but also in the tone and context of those words. I consider Allan clever enough to express what he means and myself clever enough to discern that meaning. He took that article as an attack on Team Bioware (which it was not) and responded as an angry fan would, in a reactionary and thoughtless manner. So no, I don't believe there is any misunderstanding at all.

Fair enough, and thanks for responding. And I can see why you would regret posting the article, but there have been a fair amount of people who have read it thanks to you and taken something positive from it so there's always that. Also, you (and by extension the writer) generated clicks, which is a large part of the job description. You should ask for royalties. 

Okay, I didn't interpret it as such, but I guess you could. It seems we'll have to put it down 
to difference of opinion.

[Dorrieb]

Allan Schumacher wrote...
I took his article as an opinion piece.

I am pretty sure he wrote it the way that he did because it'd help promote discussion (even through controversy... here I am discussing it more!).  Stuff like Loghain's beard was probably because it was hastily written to meet a deadline.


Note that all this started because someone solicited my opinion of it. If you think that my response was unprofessional, that's fine. As long as you aren't holding my opinion to a different standard than Robert's, I have no issue with it.

Allan, I appreciate that you took the trouble to respond and I have no doubt that you're being honest and straightforward, probably even feeling a bit outraged. But you must realise that a post with a Bioware avatar carries more weight than a picture of a city elf. Other people here take their cues from you, whether they realise it or not. Yes, your opinion was asked for, but you could have easily given it without the disparaging tone, and yes, other people have been even more disparaging, but you are not posting as 'Allan the discerning human being', you are posting as 'Allan the BioWare employee'.

For what it's worth, Richard writes the way he does because his witty style is his major selling point, and what distinguishes him from the crowd of gaming journalists. I write this knowing that it will be followed by a number of sullen adolescents telling me that I don't know what witty is and that Richard couldn't wit his way out of a Harry and Paul sketch, but his readership does appreciate it and we have for a very long time, so there's that.

You write with distinct sarcasm that 'if Id prefer, you could add some extra layers of PR speak to your responses,' but actually yes, I would prefer that, if by 'PR speak' you mean an attitude of respect. It's up to you to set the tone for these forums, and if you send the message that it's okay to be malicious don't be surprised when ordinary posters take their cues from that.

So no, I'm afraid that you haven't changed my mind. I was rather hoping to change yours. Not about the article-- your opinion is absolutely your own. And how you choose to express that opinion is also entirely up to you, but it does send a message. Richard (not Robert) has editors to determine whether his copy is appropriate to their publications. If you are aware of the example you're setting and you think it's appropriate to these forums then fine, you are your own editor here.

[Firky]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Just to be clear as I go over the thread again: Firky was spot on:

(I know you weren't replying to me) but I've been paid to write an opinion column on games for 5.5 years. I don't really write things like, "This is childish, boring." etc, most of the time, I tend to make fun of myself rather than others, but that's what an opinion column is/can be. I read my colleagues' opinion columns every month and they can be pretty brutal, at times.

I took his article as an opinion piece.

I am pretty sure he wrote it the way that he did because it'd help promote discussion (even through controversy... here I am discussing it more!).  Stuff like Loghain's beard was probably because it was hastily written to meet a deadline.

<snip>

An old editor was complaining to me one time that he had to cut two instances of "the c word" out of a colleague's opinion column one month. Personally, I think the writer is absolutely brilliant. (But, he's pretty much mastered "tongue in cheek," to my mind.)

(Edit. My colleague is brilliant, IMO. I haven't read much by the writer of this article.)

Modifié par Firky, 12 février 2013 - 08:34 .

[karushna5]

@Dorrieb
I think what he is implying is that you are holding his opinion to have a greater worth than the person who wrote the article. Both gave their opinions, as opinions. The person who wrote the article had mistakes, obvious ones, that bothered him, and that he felt the writing said the same thing as what many people said on the forums. I don't think he mentioned anything that wasn't brought up several times on here. Someone asked his opinion and he said...he made mistakes and said the same things that are said on here, if it was disparaging it was small, and his dislike of these things is there.

The person who wrote the article was much more disparaging in many ways. If you are holding one to professional accountability it only make sense that the other one was as well. Also professionally it was poor because of the mistakes. I know you like the author, which is wonderful. But you are being unfair and a bit biased to hold Allan to such accountability and your author to none of it.

[The Teyrn of Whatever]

Blair Brown wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Zelto wrote...

Allan, since you are posting on the thread I assume your read the artical (sorry if not, but personally think its a good read so would advise it)

Without suggesting in anyway that your responce should be binding, what is your opinion on the suggestion in the artical?
You always seem very franc in your evaluation of any game in discussion (Biowares or not), so would be interested to know whether as a game developer you agree with some or the comments. I am aware you can't be very specific as it may be taken as a suggestion what WILL happen rather than what you would personally like.

The problem I had with the article upon reading it were some of the gaffes.  Loghain's beard, and some of the strange stuff like "bad" British accents (that a genuine British accent is a "bad" accent reminds me of those that thought that an actual french speaking Corinne was a "bad french accent").


IMO it's pretty indiscernable from other fan feedback.  It's just granted an extra degree of authenticity/exposure because it's a PC Gamer editorial.

This.

My problem with it as well was the gaffes, and lack of research. ie. "going forward they should have playable races" (even though its alraedy been stated the game is human only.)

This. I myself get very annoyed with lack of research in articles and internet forum postings alike.

"Hawke added nothing to the game except for a bad British accent"

Which Hawke? Garrett or Marion? Both Nicholas Boulton and Jo Wyatt hail from the U.K. It's possible that neither of the two actors were using their own regional accents when playing Hawke. Some elaboration on what made the male or female Hawke's accent bad, in the author's opinion, would have been nice. Failing to research the voice actors countries of origin is kind of lame.

[The Teyrn of Whatever]

iakus wrote...

Finally got curious and read the article.

I agreed with some points.

Others, not so much.

Overall it's an opinion piece. Not much different than mine or anyone else's save this guy likely got paid to write it down.

I love the fact that the author of the article employs "we" instead of "I". I find it pompous and presumptuous when people on forums, like the BSN, use it when they are in fact expressing their own personal opinion. I find it even worse when so-called journalists and/or opinion writers employ this tactic. Using we instead of I does not lend an article weight or make me fill included just because I might share a few common opinions with the writer.

[Firky]

It may be the media outlet asking for the usage of "we," though, and it may be intended to speak for the media outlet rather than readers. My experience is that I used to have to write opinion columns as "I" and reviews/previews as "we" but that was dropped as they were increasingly considered less of a rigid piece to write.

[Das Tentakel]

The Teryn of Whatever wrote...

iakus wrote...

Finally got curious and read the article.

I agreed with some points.

Others, not so much.

Overall it's an opinion piece. Not much different than mine or anyone else's save this guy likely got paid to write it down.

I love the fact that the author of the article employs "we" instead of "I". I find it pompous and presumptuous when people on forums, like the BSN, use it when they are in fact expressing their own personal opinion. I find it even worse when so-called journalists and/or opinion writers employ this tactic. Using we instead of I does not lend an article weight or make me fill included just because I might share a few common opinions with the writer.

It may have been as simple as the writer making notes of what the PC Gamer staff, or at least those members who like and / or review RPG’s, would like to see. Or maybe he got that list from the PC Gamer staff. The opinion in the article may very well be not just the writer’s opinion but a summary of existing opinions / hopes / expectations at PC Gamer.

A lot of what’s in the piece is what I see constantly repeated, not just among critical fans on BSN, but on a lot of forums as well as in the more critical professional reviews (in four languages). In the latter case the criticisms are usually (not always…) more systematic and reasoned, of course.

But hey, at least it’s publicity. Outside BSN and some BioWare or RPG oriented forums (RPG Codex, * cough * ) there hasn’t been that much interest in DA3 on the various gaming forums I visit.
So far, what’s there hasn’t been, erm, very positive. Mostly ranting about DA2, the ‘death’ (or ‘decline’) of BioWare etc. And not even much of that.

[Sutekh]

Firky wrote...

It may be the media outlet asking for the usage of "we," though, and it may be intended to speak for the media outlet rather than readers. My experience is that I used to have to write opinion columns as "I" and reviews/previews as "we" but that was dropped as they were increasingly considered less of a rigid piece to write.

Then maybe he could have used "PCGamers" or something similar instead of "we" for clarity purpose. The more I think of it, the more I realize that it's the "we" in the title that's problematic . Had he used "I", I would have had absolutely no problem with the piece (except for the research part, maybe).

One single little word, and everything's changed...

[Nomadiac]

Firky wrote...

It may be the media outlet asking for the usage of "we," though, and it may be intended to speak for the media outlet rather than readers. My experience is that I used to have to write opinion columns as "I" and reviews/previews as "we" but that was dropped as they were increasingly considered less of a rigid piece to write.

Didn't PC Gamer call DA2 the 'RPG of the decade' and give it a 94/100, though? I doubt that the outlet would ask Richard Corbett to represent their opinion while he's trashing DA2. 

I just think he's a douche. And I actually agree with most of what he said in that article - it's just that he comes across as an immense wanker in his attitude. 

[nightscrawl]

imbs wrote...

From my extremely limited experiences listening to the male Hawke I'd say people are not articulating the right problems with the voice there. I don't think his accent is too bad, I do however think the guy doing the voices does a shoddy job sometimes. He emphasises the wrong/weird words a lot and comes off as just wooden sometimes as well.

Once again just saying I've only ever played FemHawke (who i had no complaints with voice actor wise, I thought she was 20*better than Femshephard) so take this opinion with a grain of salt.

I find this amusing as I had the reverse opinion. In general I prefer Nicholas Boulton because of his word emphasis and emotiveness, whereas I think that Jo Wyatt occasionally sounds like a robot. I've played a maleHawke three times and femHawke about eight since I prefer a female character. I don't think one is vastly superior to the other.

Also, I had a huge fangirl squee when I heard Nic Boulton also voice Malcolm in Legacy, but in a more serious/mature tone. Even though it seems the obvious choice, I thought that was fantastic.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 12 février 2013 - 11:54 .

[Gibb_Shepard]

Dorrieb wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...
I took his article as an opinion piece.

I am pretty sure he wrote it the way that he did because it'd help promote discussion (even through controversy... here I am discussing it more!).  Stuff like Loghain's beard was probably because it was hastily written to meet a deadline.


Note that all this started because someone solicited my opinion of it. If you think that my response was unprofessional, that's fine. As long as you aren't holding my opinion to a different standard than Robert's, I have no issue with it.

Allan, I appreciate that you took the trouble to respond and I have no doubt that you're being honest and straightforward, probably even feeling a bit outraged. But you must realise that a post with a Bioware avatar carries more weight than a picture of a city elf. Other people here take their cues from you, whether they realise it or not. Yes, your opinion was asked for, but you could have easily given it without the disparaging tone, and yes, other people have been even more disparaging, but you are not posting as 'Allan the discerning human being', you are posting as 'Allan the BioWare employee'.

Oh go away. He can post whatever he wants. Company employees that can come right out with their opinion without all the PR bull**** get my support instantly. The man's not a corporate drone, and that's why i like reading his posts.

[Withidread]

When a poster on BSN uses the phrase "fix the DA2 problems" that's one thing. I personally just disregard it and move on. I find myself having a bit of a problem when this is done by a supposedly professional journalist who gets paid for it. The way this article was written, it could just as easily been written by a random poster here on BSN. There's nothing to differentiate it as a piece of professional journalism rather than a rant of recycled complaints that have been repeated again and again by people who didn't like one or both of the first two games. Admittedly, it's been awhile since I've held any gaming publication with any regard at all, but articles like this, ones written with not even an attempt at objectivity, or originality, are a major reason I no longer respect them.

[Thetford]

Travie wrote...

Have we really got to the point that even developers don't take gaming journalists very seriously?

I think society has moved on where hardly anyone takes any journalist seriously.

[imbs]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Dorrieb wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...
I took his article as an opinion piece.

I am pretty sure he wrote it the way that he did because it'd help promote discussion (even through controversy... here I am discussing it more!).  Stuff like Loghain's beard was probably because it was hastily written to meet a deadline.


Note that all this started because someone solicited my opinion of it. If you think that my response was unprofessional, that's fine. As long as you aren't holding my opinion to a different standard than Robert's, I have no issue with it.

Allan, I appreciate that you took the trouble to respond and I have no doubt that you're being honest and straightforward, probably even feeling a bit outraged. But you must realise that a post with a Bioware avatar carries more weight than a picture of a city elf. Other people here take their cues from you, whether they realise it or not. Yes, your opinion was asked for, but you could have easily given it without the disparaging tone, and yes, other people have been even more disparaging, but you are not posting as 'Allan the discerning human being', you are posting as 'Allan the BioWare employee'.

Oh go away. He can post whatever he wants. Company employees that can come right out with their opinion without all the PR bull**** get my support instantly. The man's not a corporate drone, and that's why i like reading his posts.

So true. It's actually a joke that these video game company employees are expected to have twice the standard of anyone else when it comes to posting, and it usually just means they cannot say anything interesting due to morons who just love to jump on controversy

[sycophanticchallenger]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Travie wrote...

Have we really got to the point that even developers don't take gaming journalists very seriously?

Eh, my dislike of gaming journalism is probably more tied to "Allan the discerning human being" than "Allan the BioWare employee."

THere are aspects of it, such as the gratuitous chain linking (that often help to only spread rumors) as well as the recent article outlying how easy it is to get them to run with something (which is exacerbated by the chain linking) despite the "leak" later demonstrating that it was all just a ruse.  Though that's symptomatic of an audience that wants to just gobble it all up and it's a race for clicks.

But that's neither here nor there for this thread.

Yes, But I'm sure there are aspects of gaming journalism you don't mind so much, such as a gaming journo's only loyalty being to their paycheck... How the **** else could someone write "A pinnacle of role-playing games with well-designed mechanics and excellent story-telling, Dragon Age II is what videogames are meant to be." - 10/10 escapist magazine. Their lack of integrity certainly helps Bioware's post release goal of achieving a certain metacritic score for a payout from your publisher...

Thankfully there is Zero Punctuation to balance out the equation. http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/2978-Dragon-Age-II  From 4:07 on is very relevant. Also from 0:30 to 0:42.

What really bothers me is that Bioware Pre-EA WOULD NOT HAVE RELEASED DRAGON AGE 2 in that state. It was an obvious rushed cash in, who's short development cycle and flawed release was mandated by the money that now owns Bioware.

I almost feel bad that Bioware has to deal with the backlash for such a flawed game when it was EA that made the decisions.

[kingjezza]

I'm sure the Dragon Age devs weren't half as quick to jump on PC Gamer or Rich Mccormick when they/he gave DA2 a gushing review making the game sound almost perfect. Obviously dishonest reviews like the one in PC Gamer are the real bane of gaming journalism.

[DaringMoosejaw]

kingjezza wrote...

I'm sure the Dragon Age devs weren't half as quick to jump on PC Gamer or Rich Mccormick when they/he gave DA2 a gushing review making the game sound almost perfect. Obviously dishonest reviews like the one in PC Gamer are the real bane of gaming journalism.

So you're only allowed to point out shoddy journalism if you attack people who are nice to you? That's very silly.

It's also only one guy.

Modifié par DaringMoosejaw, 12 février 2013 - 03:51 .

[Vilegrim]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Travie wrote...

Have we really got to the point that even developers don't take gaming journalists very seriously?

Eh, my dislike of gaming journalism is probably more tied to "Allan the discerning human being" than "Allan the BioWare employee."

THere are aspects of it, such as the gratuitous chain linking (that often help to only spread rumors) as well as the recent article outlying how easy it is to get them to run with something (which is exacerbated by the chain linking) despite the "leak" later demonstrating that it was all just a ruse.  Though that's symptomatic of an audience that wants to just gobble it all up and it's a race for clicks.

But that's neither here nor there for this thread.

That is before we get to the reviews of 'professionals' which seem to have more to do with how much advertising revenue they are getting from the game, and if they think that the backlash for a review is worth it (especially given the extra traffic such controvesy generates) , than the actually quality of the game in front of them.

I agree with Richard Cobbett in this case (and he is right, male Hawke does sound like he is playing ot a stereotype of a British accent, hamming it up alot)  but I do not trust his publication or any gaming media for any more than news pieces.  Not since ME3/DA2, (not the only games that got a way better review that it deserved, but the straw that broke the camels back.) 

Modifié par Vilegrim, 12 février 2013 - 04:55 .

[Firky]

Nomadiac wrote...

Didn't PC Gamer call DA2 the 'RPG of the decade' and give it a 94/100, though? I doubt that the outlet would ask Richard Corbett to represent their opinion while he's trashing DA2. 

*shrug*  My guess would be that it might just be the way they use the word, "we." (Not necessarily, but might.) In this article there's also some "everyone" and "nobody." That just sounds like opinion piece flavour to me.

I reviewed games as "we" for, probably, 2.5 years without ever discussing the review with a single other person, just because that's the way "we" did it. (And there's plenty of disagreement on reviews and scores amoung reviewers I know - but I've never heard a colleague trash another's review or score.)

Not having to use "we" works better for me for reviews, and within our criteria, which is really about the reviewer's experience with the game. I know nothing about the mag's advertising or anything, either. It's a just way of reviewing that is flexible and allows for individual interpretation. But, outlets are different in approach. I haven't really looked into it, but I think Polygon does score collaboration, or whatever. I think the golden rule is always just to find an outlet that matches what you want to read and method.

(Edit: PS. And although I see myself as a freelance reviewer with an independant approach and opinion, there is the fact that I will be representing the outlet, too. If I get quoted anywhere, it's not quoted as me, it's as the outlet. So it's never absolutely clear cut. It's just the nature of things.)

Modifié par Firky, 12 février 2013 - 08:38 .

[stormhit]

Dorrieb wrote...

So no, I'm afraid that you haven't changed my mind. I was rather hoping to change yours. Not about the article-- your opinion is absolutely your own. And how you choose to express that opinion is also entirely up to you, but it does send a message. Richard (not Robert) has editors to determine whether his copy is appropriate to their publications. If you are aware of the example you're setting and you think it's appropriate to these forums then fine, you are your own editor here.

Every single opinion journalist on the planet has thicker skin than you're giving them credit for. You might not have the stomach for it, but I assure you that you're defending someone who most certainly would not feel wronged by anything in this thread.

[Medhia Nox]

@imbs and Gibbs_Shepard: Just remember what you're saying here when you're talking face to face in a retail store please.

When the cashier says something snarky to you - because you didn't read the sign two feet away from you about where the canned peaches are, or missed the expiration date on something because you were too lazy to read - don't be a hypocrite.

Let's them tell you all about yourself.

[Dorrieb]

stormhit13 wrote...
Every single opinion journalist on the planet has thicker skin than you're giving them credit for. You might not have the stomach for it, but I assure you that you're defending someone who most certainly would not feel wronged by anything in this thread.

True, Richard is a big boy writer.

But think. In this thread, Richard has been called a hack, an idiot, a douche, a wanker, and worse. Does Allan Schumacher endorse talk like that? I'm going to guess that no, he does not. But his response seems to signal that he does. It tells them that he's okay with it, that he is on their side, that their behaviour has his stamp of approval -- his official stamp of approval, because it comes with 'BioWare' on it.

And they love him for it, because it means that 'he is not a corporate drone', he 'tells it like it is', he is not afraid to 'call 'em as he sees 'em' and if that offends you, 'too bad'.

Now flash forward to the release of DA3 and, god forbid, it falls short of fans' expectations and the forums explode like a septic tank in summer. Hundreds of posters are rude and abusive to BioWare and its employees. In vain, moderators try to explain to them that it is okay to express negative opinions, but not by being abusive and disrespectful. Only they don't think they are being abusive, do they? They're only telling it like it is and calling it as they see it, and who taught them that?

That's all the point I wanted to make.

[Fiddzz]

Dorrieb wrote...

stormhit13 wrote...
Every single opinion journalist on the planet has thicker skin than you're giving them credit for. You might not have the stomach for it, but I assure you that you're defending someone who most certainly would not feel wronged by anything in this thread.

True, Richard is a big boy writer.

But think. In this thread, Richard has been called a hack, an idiot, a douche, a wanker, and worse. Does Allan Schumacher endorse talk like that? I'm going to guess that no, he does not. But his response seems to signal that he does. It tells them that he's okay with it, that he is on their side, that their behaviour has his stamp of approval -- his official stamp of approval, because it comes with 'BioWare' on it.

And they love him for it, because it means that 'he is not a corporate drone', he 'tells it like it is', he is not afraid to 'call 'em as he sees 'em' and if that offends you, 'too bad'.

Now flash forward to the release of DA3 and, god forbid, it falls short of fans' expectations and the forums explode like a septic tank in summer. Hundreds of posters are rude and abusive to BioWare and its employees. In vain, moderators try to explain to them that it is okay to express negative opinions, but not by being abusive and disrespectful. Only they don't think they are being abusive, do they? They're only telling it like it is and calling it as they see it, and who taught them that?

That's all the point I wanted to make.

No it doesn't.  He made his own opinion, one that I share, and that is all.  He did not endorse anything else.  To make the conjecture that because he is not going through each post in this thread and saying what you want, which is to tell everyone who posts something against the article that they are wrong, he is endorsing what others say is a bit of a leap.

Then using your made up example to project the future of how people will act and that they learned it from the dev's.... going a bit far.

---if you actually read what me and Allan posted too... non of it was negative towards the writer or article, besides wanting to get facts correct and doing a little research.  Which is a fair critisism.

When we say we consider it in the same vien as forum posts its because it is. I collect all the articles like this, as well as the forum posts "lets talk about..." "top 5 things" as well as this thread, internal studies, play tests etc etc. collegate it and filter out the information for the senior leads as part of a side project I like to do.  So they can stay up with what people are talking about and wanting.  It is not a negitive thing.