588 réponses à ce sujet

[Brockololly]

Twisted Path wrote...

Yeah, didn't PC Gamer call Dragon Age 2 the "RPG of the Decade"? If it was so perfect what is there to fix? Hmm...

Except for the part where the reviewer of DA2 for PC Gamer was not RIchard Cobbett. He actually wrote some decent criticism of DA2.


As for the article I agree with most of it. I don't agree that the Deep Roads intrinsically suck. They're basically a giant underground cave/tunnel network. With a robust lighting system, that should be goddamn amazing to explore. Its more a failure of BioWare's level designers/artists/engine in DA:O and DA2 that they've been seen as boring, which could also be due to their grindy nature in Origins.

Character Customisation. Commander Shepard was a great  character, and there’s no reason that she couldn’t have a fantasy  equivalent. Dragon Age isn’t the game to do that in though, and Hawke  added nothing to the game except for a bad British accent, some  forgettable family members, and even less reason to care about what was  going on in Kirkwall if you weren’t (sssh!) a mage.

I completelt agree here but obviously tied with the next point, it seems this ship has sailed. Not every game needs to shamelessly ape Mass Effect. It would be nice if Dragon Age could have had its own identity.

No Main Character Voice. For the above reasons, really. A fixed character having a voice is one thing – it would be silly for  instance if Geralt didn’t. When it’s your own creation, the immersion  lost by having them be a heroic mime is more than made up for by them  not sounding like a complete ****/****ette. Once again, Hawke, looking  at you. Over a whole RPG though, you soon get used to silence.

Completely agree here. And the whole "mime" aspect could easily be alleviated by altering the presentation style of the dialogue.

This made me think of a similarly interesting quote from Gaider in the ask a developer thread:

Sometimes, once a voice is in-game and we see it being used by an in-game model, we don't like it and start the process over.

This is one of my big issues with a voiced PC- sometimes the fixed voice just doesn't fit the look of the in game, player created character model. Yet, while BioWare can nix the voice actor and start over, as the player you're forced to ditch your created PC since you're stuck with the one voice. While I'd always prefer a non voiced PC, if there was some way to customize the voice, that would help immensely.

Its a pretty damn good list that Cobbett made though, overall.

Modifié par Brockololly, 10 février 2013 - 03:38 .

[Darth Krytie]

Beerfish wrote...

Another make it like the Witcher 2 bent to a story. Meh.

Every single time someone puts down DA in favour of TW2, my desire to play TW2 lessens. Right now, I'd have to increase my desire to play it by forty percent just to hit zero.


The dude mades some fair points, but most of it is just a matter of taste.  I prefer voiced to silent, found DA:O and DA:2 to be enjoyable over all, and don't have a problem with the Deep Roads.

I don't care one whit whether my characters get fully nude for their sex scenes. If I want to see nekkid boobies, I'll turn on my favourite porn.

More customization, fewer recycled areas, and a compelling ending would be nice. I'd rather not end up with the whole Orsino fiasco again. (Which is frustrating since I mostly always side with the Mages.)

[dheer]

Sopa de Gato wrote...
So they praise Shepard for being a great character..then immediately want no VA? Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

Different style of game, different desired features. Shepard was great for Mass Effect but he doesn't want a set Shepard type character (Hawke) in the next Dragon Age game. I would prefer racial choice and a silent protagonist as well but we all know neither are going to be in the next game. His article is just a list of things he wants in the next game, not what has to be in it.

If I were to start a similar list to the article, number one would be expanded camera options. Please allow for full use of a camera similar in style to DA:O's or in some other way allow the player to zoom out and unlock the view from a character. I don't think that is asking too much.

[Steppenwolf]

Darth Krytie wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

Another make it like the Witcher 2 bent to a story. Meh.

Every single time someone puts down DA in favour of TW2, my desire to play TW2 lessens.

TW2 is really overrated IMO. It tries so hard to be mature and intense but it feels like teenagers made it IMO. The tone is so... horny teenager/pseudo-cool, like a Paul W. S. Anderson movie.

[Renmiri1]

BasilKarlo wrote...

Darth Krytie wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

Another make it like the Witcher 2 bent to a story. Meh.

Every single time someone puts down DA in favour of TW2, my desire to play TW2 lessens.

TW2 is really overrated IMO. It tries so hard to be mature and intense but it feels like teenagers made it IMO. The tone is so... horny teenager/pseudo-cool, like a Paul W. S. Anderson movie.

Yup

[Steppenwolf]

krul2k wrote...

opinion opinion opinion

DA2 was a great game, i bought it, i installed it, it kept me entertained for as long as i played it, result a GAME did its job, like every other GAME in existence it has problems, like every other GAME ive enjoyed playing i laugh at the problems and continue to enjoy the game, if i buy a game and dont like it for what ever reason you know what i do, i put it aside an move on with a big fat lol

Opinion, opinion, opinion

all mine an the only one who cares or gives a toss is me because thats all that matters

"Ha ha ha! I just spent $60 on this game that I don't enjoy in the slightest. Ha ha ha! Time for something else!"

Really, dude?

[H. Birdman]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

The problem stems when someone states that "objectively" something is anything, because people only use it in a way to dismiss the other perspective as being less meaningful.

When you also include the term "steaming pile of trash" any hope of having an "objective" discussion is out.

If you like DA2 then yay for you. If you don't like DA2 then yay for you. Continuing to sidetrack discussions by making obviously fruitless claims that people consistently disagree with is not productive. Insanity is doing the same thing repeatedly and expecting different results.

I don't think I said anything about a "steaming pile of trash," Allan.  But if you're trying to illustrate how not to have a constructive discussion, made up quotes are a good start.

That aside, I understand your objection to my use of "objective."  It was meant to provoke a little discomfort, as many arguments are.  Let me expound a bit:  It was meant to suggest that, while the merits of some games are a close call, others aren't.  Whether Bioshock 2 is up to the standards of Bioshock is debatable.  I meant to suggest that whether DA2 is up to the standards of DAO --indeed, whether it is up to the general standards of BioWare-- is not debatable. 

Do I understand that a small number of loyal fans disagree, and perhaps even hold DA2 above DAO?  Of course.  I was suggesting that the reason for that isn't an objective assessment of DA2, but rather a form of brand loyalty.  I realize most won't agree with that assessment, but that's no reason not to make it.  Regarding your last point, I've never made this argument before, but if someone else has, I hardly think that's a reason to label it "insane."  Wouldn't other previously-rejected arguments in this thread (e.g., "recycling environments isn't a problem") then be equally insane?

Anyway, love BioWare's work, and DA in particular.  Having never posted on any other games forum, I was surprised to find myself caring enough about a franchise to debate it. 

[Allan Schumacher]

Despite the underhanded insult (wont understand the irony? so cruel) I will attempt to comply with your desires.

You are correct, that actually was uncalled for. I was in a bit of a cranky mood as it is and I do apologize for that. I used it as a lead in for a segue to everyone, but didn't need to call out whether you'd understand it specifically. I could have just as easily said "And just for everyone's benefit" or something similar.

Cheers.

[Zelto]

Allan, since you are posting on the thread I assume your read the artical (sorry if not, but personally think its a good read so would advise it)

Without suggesting in anyway that your responce should be binding, what is your opinion on the suggestion in the artical?
You always seem very franc in your evaluation of any game in discussion (Biowares or not), so would be interested to know whether as a game developer you agree with some or the comments. I am aware you can't be very specific as it may be taken as a suggestion what WILL happen rather than what you would personally like.

Modifié par Zelto, 10 février 2013 - 04:49 .

[Steppenwolf]

krul2k wrote...

you know that old saying "dude" shet happens? well guess what

if, an i will say this again, in my OPINION your daft enough to rush out an buy a game at that price your asking for trouble, either wait for reviews or wait on the price dropping simple solution.

With the way games are being thrown out left right an center nowadays to,in my opinion, stupidly go out an pay top dollar for one of them is tantamount to wallet suicide especially to a company thats been bought over by EA but thats a different story an one not for here

edit for bash or somein 2 posts up

Dragon Age 2 and Mass Effect 3 had glowing reviews weeks in advance of release. And don't call other people daft for wanting to enjoy their hobby. It's unnecessarily confrontational and makes you look like a jerk.

Modifié par BasilKarlo, 10 février 2013 - 04:25 .

[Dorrieb]

EntropicAngel wrote...

What do YOU think, OP? Don't just provide a link.

I've already said: I think that Richard Cobbett is tasty and nutritious and knows how to put the bop in the bop shoo bop possibly better than anyone in his business. On the other hand Rich McCormick, who wrote PC Gamer's original DA2 review is only reasonably tasty, and doesn't look nutritious at all. Possibly he didn't even put the ram in the rama lama ding dong, although that's hardly his fault and we mustn't hold it against him.

The spider thing does assume that you know a bit about Richard though. Simply put, if you have any plans involving spiders or spider-like creatures, Richard is not your man.

[nightscrawl]

I read the "article." I cannot stand it when people write and speak in such condescending tones. Be critical all you want, you don't have to be an a** about it. That alone was reason enough for me to not take most of it seriously.

If the post had been titled "What I want to see from Dragon Age 3" instead, it would have been far more palatable.

Also, "No More Deep Roads. Dullest. Location. Ever." I hope we go there at least once in every game!

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Furthermore, and again for everybody, if someone IS going around saying "Uh, objectively this game is bad/good," stop taking the bait.

It's so difficult though! Over the years I've probably deleted about a dozen long-winded rebuttals to various posts after I've written them because the conflict is more trouble than it's worth. I suppose in those cases the writing is cathartic, and after I've written it all out it doesn't seem as bad anymore.

BasilKarlo wrote...

I can't take the article seriously. The writer doesn't even know who Loghain is or what what he looks like.

He edited the post afterward to say "thunder face" instead of "beard."

Modifié par nightscrawl, 10 février 2013 - 04:39 .

[Paul E Dangerously]

dheer wrote...

Sopa de Gato wrote...
So they praise Shepard for being a great character..then immediately want no VA? Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

Different style of game, different desired features. Shepard was great for Mass Effect but he doesn't want a set Shepard type character (Hawke) in the next Dragon Age game. I would prefer racial choice and a silent protagonist as well but we all know neither are going to be in the next game. His article is just a list of things he wants in the next game, not what has to be in it.

If I were to start a similar list to the article, number one would be expanded camera options. Please allow for full use of a camera similar in style to DA:O's or in some other way allow the player to zoom out and unlock the view from a character. I don't think that is asking too much.

A silent protagonist only works if you never really see your character in any sort of sitiuation where he/she/it has to stand there mute for long periods of time, or worse yet standing there with his/her/it's mouth gaping open like a fish. It worked for BG/BG2 and the like because your character was at best a distant pixellated blob. It works a lot less well in the modern era, especially with the viewpoint the Dragon Age games takes.

[Steppenwolf]

nightscrawl wrote...

BasilKarlo wrote...

I can't take the article seriously. The writer doesn't even know who Loghain is or what what he looks like.

He edited the post afterward to say "thunder face" instead of "beard."

The hell is a "thunder face?"

[nightscrawl]

BasilKarlo wrote...

nightscrawl wrote...

BasilKarlo wrote...

I can't take the article seriously. The writer doesn't even know who Loghain is or what what he looks like.

He edited the post afterward to say "thunder face" instead of "beard."

The hell is a "thunder face?"

>:{


I found Loghain's features to be a bit too exaggerated, particularly the brow. I use the Dragon Age Redesigned mod (recommended version) and he looks a bit better.

[Allan Schumacher]

I don't think I said anything about a "steaming pile of trash," Allan. But if you're trying to illustrate how not to have a constructive discussion, made up quotes are a good start.

You didn't. Someone else did.

[addiction21]

BasilKarlo wrote...

Darth Krytie wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

Another make it like the Witcher 2 bent to a story. Meh.

Every single time someone puts down DA in favour of TW2, my desire to play TW2 lessens.

TW2 is really overrated IMO. It tries so hard to be mature and intense but it feels like teenagers made it IMO. The tone is so... horny teenager/pseudo-cool, like a Paul W. S. Anderson movie.

I disagree and I am no fan of the series.  I have played thru them and its just not my "cup of tea" but they are quality products and I think they did a good job of adapting the written material to the game. With that said it is the fans that have endlessly rammed their opinions of how its the most awesome mature, dark, gritty, real *insert thirty seven other buzzwords here* that have worn out their welcome.

Its like A Game of Thrones. There are dozens of novels I have read very similar of type and quality but this one hit it big. Now its the go too thing to compare everything possible to like Tolkien has been.

The hardcore fans have done more damage to the series then anything else.



And what I expect from DA3? A BioWare game. DA2 by any other company would of still been a enjoyable game but it was BIoWare and it lacked that polish and touch I expect from them.  ME3 had it. No I am not a fan of the ending and the Leviathen DLC is the first time I thought to myself "this should of been in the game"

[Allan Schumacher]

Zelto wrote...

Allan, since you are posting on the thread I assume your read the artical (sorry if not, but personally think its a good read so would advise it)

Without suggesting in anyway that your responce should be binding, what is your opinion on the suggestion in the artical?
You always seem very franc in your evaluation of any game in discussion (Biowares or not), so would be interested to know whether as a game developer you agree with some or the comments. I am aware you can't be very specific as it may be taken as a suggestion what WILL happen rather than what you would personally like.

The problem I had with the article upon reading it were some of the gaffes.  Loghain's beard, and some of the strange stuff like "bad" British accents (that a genuine British accent is a "bad" accent reminds me of those that thought that an actual french speaking Corinne was a "bad french accent").


IMO it's pretty indiscernable from other fan feedback.  It's just granted an extra degree of authenticity/exposure because it's a PC Gamer editorial.

[slimgrin]

I usually ignore PC gamer, but I was surprised with how honest and blunt they were with this article. A prescription to fix all the problems they list means rewriting the franchise...

But in the end DA is what it is. Another high fantasy epic firmly in the grip of Tolkien.

[Medhia Nox]

There's a handful I agree/disagree with strongly - the rest seem way too subjective.

Strongly Agree:

- Story And Game Integration - I really felt DA 2 dropped the ball here.
- No Main Character Voice - but I have zero illusions that this is seen as anything more than "going backward"
- Jobs For The Boys And Girls - everyone should be relevant. Not just a toady for the Main Protagonist. Of course - I want an Ensemble Protagonist cast - but I won't get it for years yet I wager.
- Fluid Politics - could hardly be leveled against just Bioware games. This is rare - period. But I like.
- Built For PC - sorry folks, I'm "on of those" people.

Strongly Disagree:

- Open World, Open Heart - not for a Bioware narrative.
- No More Deep Roads - the Deep Roads are fine. What might need some work is time spent in any one location (like The Fade - which is also a point of complaint for many).
- Party Customization - so long as they're Bioware's NPCs I couldn't care less about them. Just give them low-mid-high level graphics... and let the developers worry about their NPCs.

[Bryy_Miller]

Twisted Path wrote...

Yeah, didn't PC Gamer call Dragon Age 2 the "RPG of the Decade"? If it was so perfect what is there to fix? Hmm...

Nothing is ever perfect.

Not even "perfect" games.

[addiction21]

slimgrin wrote...

But in the end DA is what it is. Another high fantasy epic firmly in the grip of Tolkien.

I would say that is high praise comparing it to Tolkien. Then again suspect it was more of that usual "clichéd its like Tolkien because its fantasy with elves and dwarfs" of something similar.