588 réponses à ce sujet

[Renmiri1]

Dorrieb wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...
...some of the strange stuff like "bad" British accents (that a genuine British accent is a "bad" accent reminds me of those that thought that an actual french speaking Corinne was a "bad french accent")

Allan, not to contradict that Nicholas Boulton is genuinely British, but the author of the article, Richard Cobbett, is also British and lives in England, where people do have an ear for a British accent. Also, there is such a thing as respect for one's profession. Forum posters being rude and disrespectful is nothing new, but when someone with an official Bioware avatar dismisses a professional piece as 'indiscernable from other fan feedback' it probably goes a long way toward explaining why these forums are often such a horrible place. You don't have to like the article, but I'm very disappointed to see you join in the stoning. 

I don't think Richard Cobbet was being respectful to Bioware. He was writing like a troll from the forums, not like an unbiased journalist.

He wants respect as a professional journalist he should try writing a professinal article

[BrookerT]

Nerevar-as wrote...

BrookerT wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...

Lennard Testarossa wrote...

Is it just me or does all criticism of TW2 on this board come from butthurt gender studies majors?

It is more like the fanboys can't bear any criticism of their beloved TW 1 and 2.

I don't dislike ALL of TW2 but I do dislike the sexism. Alas, saying anything against the game is considered "butthurt" while refusing to admit even the mildest criticism of your passion is not "butthurt" at all

Go figure. 

Yeah, complimenting TW2's graphics, gameplay, choices, aesthic design is fine. I really love some parts of TW2, it's just whenever someone calls it mature, I'm like <_<

Let´s see... no clear good side, ambiguous characters, political issues, racism,... seem like mature themes to me. If you can´t see beyond the sex, then sorry for you. I also advice you to stay away from HBO series.

The only issue here is that Sex is a large part of the game and so is the sexism. Just because a game deals with Racism doesn't stop the fact its being blatantly sexist. Do you find sexist people 'mature', is it a sign of maturity for a game to give some characters the only defining feature their body ( only women )? You cannot ignore the faults of a piece of work to suit you needs, the Witcher is not mature, no matter how 'ambiguos' it is.

Just because you explore racism, political issues does not for one second mean it has automatically been explored in a mature way. A piece of work can't just have mature themes like sex, violence and complex issues to be mature, it has to be explored and presented in a mature way, and walking in on two women spanking each other naked is not mature in the slightest

[Lennard Testarossa]

BrookerT wrote...
and walking in on two women spanking each other naked is not mature in the slightest

It is neither mature nor immature. And I fail to see what this scene has to do with all those other topics.

[Fredward]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Ah the hetero male privilege and it's defenders....

Look, you like TW2 and you should, it was made for you. It wasn't made for me, a female, and it wasn't made for anyone that is not a young, hetero male. So is no surprise we don't like it.

There is nothing wrong with that. Is just natural. What is wrong is trying to convince me that TW2 is a game made for all audiences, like DA is. It is not. And anyone that promotes getting DA more like TW2 is advocating for a narrower sexist game. Which we don't want.

DA is inclusive and promotes equality. It would be a much poorer game if it was like TW2.

What. There are plenty of "young hetero males" that find The Witcher just as repugnant as the most militaristic feminist, generalizing is the bane of a politically correct existence, please avoid it if at all possible.

[BrookerT]

Lennard Testarossa wrote...

BrookerT wrote...
and walking in on two women spanking each other naked is not mature in the slightest

It is neither mature nor immature. And I fail to see what this scene has to do with all those other topics.

I was using it show the immaturity of the Witcher 2 when someone responded to me saying that I was wrong, that the witcher 2 was mature and for some reason I shouldn't watch HBO series

[Nerevar-as]

BrookerT wrote...

The only issue here is that Sex is a large part of the game and so is the sexism. Just because a game deals with Racism doesn't stop the fact its being blatantly sexist. Do you find sexist people 'mature', is it a sign of maturity for a game to give some characters the only defining feature their body ( only women )? You cannot ignore the faults of a piece of work to suit you needs, the Witcher is not mature, no matter how 'ambiguos' it is.

Just because you explore racism, political issues does not for one second mean it has automatically been explored in a mature way. A piece of work can't just have mature themes like sex, violence and complex issues to be mature, it has to be explored and presented in a mature way, and walking in on two women spanking each other naked is not mature in the slightest

Why not? It says a lot of the one doing the spanking, for starters. And what is presenting sex in a mature way? Use just FtDs? Ignore sex exists? Present a crapsack world in a way that fits 21st Century sensibilities? (Although Sapkowki uses anachronisms whenever he sees fit). I agree TW1 cards isn´t, and for that matter nor are BW´s sex in underwear scenes.

About mHawke´s voice, I´m not native English speaker, but I just got the feeling from the beginning that he was trying to sound tough and/or badass, and failing at it. Thus the way he stressed certain words felt very forced to me, like that wasn´t Hawke´s actual way of speaking.

Modifié par Nerevar-as, 10 février 2013 - 08:46 .

[BrookerT]

Nerevar-as wrote...

BrookerT wrote...

The only issue here is that Sex is a large part of the game and so is the sexism. Just because a game deals with Racism doesn't stop the fact its being blatantly sexist. Do you find sexist people 'mature', is it a sign of maturity for a game to give some characters the only defining feature their body ( only women )? You cannot ignore the faults of a piece of work to suit you needs, the Witcher is not mature, no matter how 'ambiguos' it is.

Just because you explore racism, political issues does not for one second mean it has automatically been explored in a mature way. A piece of work can't just have mature themes like sex, violence and complex issues to be mature, it has to be explored and presented in a mature way, and walking in on two women spanking each other naked is not mature in the slightest

Why not? It says a lot of the one doing the spanking, for starters. And what is presenting sex in a mature way? Use just FtDs? Ignore sex exists? Present a crapsack world in a way that fits 21st Century sensibilities? (Although Sapkowki uses anachronisms whenever he sees fit). I agree TW1 cards isn´t, and for that matter nor are BW´s sex in underwear scenes.

I don't think sex should be ignored, TW2 has Triss and Geralts elven bath scene, which is one of the most love scenes in gaming. But seriously, they couldn't find a better way to charcterise a woman than showing her spanking someone? It is a scene clearly played for laughs and ZOMG LESBIANS. Fade to black is perfectly mature, all the empahsis is placed on the romance and characters.

[Nerevar-as]

BrookerT wrote...

Lennard Testarossa wrote...

BrookerT wrote...
and walking in on two women spanking each other naked is not mature in the slightest

It is neither mature nor immature. And I fail to see what this scene has to do with all those other topics.

I was using it show the immaturity of the Witcher 2 when someone responded to me saying that I was wrong, that the witcher 2 was mature and for some reason I shouldn't watch HBO series

You seem to have an issue with gratuituous sex, and several HBO series have plenty. But I don´t think you´d call Boardwalk Empire or GoT immature.

[BrookerT]

Nerevar-as wrote...

BrookerT wrote...

Lennard Testarossa wrote...

BrookerT wrote...
and walking in on two women spanking each other naked is not mature in the slightest

It is neither mature nor immature. And I fail to see what this scene has to do with all those other topics.

I was using it show the immaturity of the Witcher 2 when someone responded to me saying that I was wrong, that the witcher 2 was mature and for some reason I shouldn't watch HBO series

You seem to have an issue with gratuituous sex, and several HBO series have plenty. But I don´t think you´d call Boardwalk Empire or GoT immature.

I don't have an issue persay, I just stuggle to see how having sex makes something ineherently mature.

[Nerevar-as]

BrookerT wrote...

I don't think sex should be ignored, TW2 has Triss and Geralts elven bath scene, which is one of the most love scenes in gaming. But seriously, they couldn't find a better way to charcterise a woman than showing her spanking someone? It is a scene clearly played for laughs and ZOMG LESBIANS. Fade to black is perfectly mature, all the empahsis is placed on the romance and characters.

Elven baths however revolted me. I guess context is everything, and Triss deserves the worst best friend award of the year. That a certain sorceress had also dominatrix tendencies in addition to everything else was ... I don´t think informative is the word that conveys what I want to say but it´s the closer I can think of right now.  It added something else about that character.

I hope you have no problem with Ciri being bi if she appears in TW3.

[Fiddzz]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Zelto wrote...

Allan, since you are posting on the thread I assume your read the artical (sorry if not, but personally think its a good read so would advise it)

Without suggesting in anyway that your responce should be binding, what is your opinion on the suggestion in the artical?
You always seem very franc in your evaluation of any game in discussion (Biowares or not), so would be interested to know whether as a game developer you agree with some or the comments. I am aware you can't be very specific as it may be taken as a suggestion what WILL happen rather than what you would personally like.

The problem I had with the article upon reading it were some of the gaffes.  Loghain's beard, and some of the strange stuff like "bad" British accents (that a genuine British accent is a "bad" accent reminds me of those that thought that an actual french speaking Corinne was a "bad french accent").


IMO it's pretty indiscernable from other fan feedback.  It's just granted an extra degree of authenticity/exposure because it's a PC Gamer editorial.

This.

My problem with it as well was the gaffes, and lack of research. ie. "going forward they should have playable races" (even though its alraedy been stated the game is human only.)

[billy the squid]

StElmo wrote...

Twisted Path wrote...

Yeah, didn't PC Gamer call Dragon Age 2 the "RPG of the Decade"? If it was so perfect what is there to fix? Hmm...

1. Stop attributing a whole site edited by different people to one persons opinion.
2. Dragon Age 2 was awesome - and best RPG of the decade is a valid opinion

No.

The entire article was mercilessly lampooned until it got to the point were they made another "alternative" review. Doesn't hold the editor in chief who should be reading the content of what he places in the magazine and by implication the entire magazine in a good light.

DA2 as best RPG of the decade is not a valid opinion when the reviewer skips and glosses his way over some of the most glaring faults of the entire game.  Particularly when round the corner came TW2, Skyrim and others, which put DA2 to shame and exposed it for the rushed mess it was.

If he had brought them up discussed and stated why he didn't find it an issue, that's fine, he didn't. 

As to the OP article. I'll simply hold off on DA3, to determine if it proves a worthy sequal.

Modifié par billy the squid, 10 février 2013 - 09:06 .

[Nerevar-as]

BrookerT wrote...

I don't have an issue persay, I just stuggle to see how having sex makes something ineherently mature.

It doesn´t. Just look at all those "comedies". +18 rating doesn´t mean maturity. Mostly everything else about TW setting is. It´s such a crapsack world that in the first game you prevent the world being saved from a future ice age. However, gratuituous sex doesn´t make a product immature either, lesbian spanking or not. If we go at that, everything that doesn´t include a FtD is. Usually watching what´s going on doesn´t bring anything new about plot or characters to the table.

Modifié par Nerevar-as, 10 février 2013 - 09:05 .

[stormhit]

Dorrieb wrote...

Allan, not to contradict that Nicholas Boulton is genuinely British, but the author of the article, Richard Cobbett, is also British and lives in England, where people do have an ear for a British accent. Also, there is such a thing as respect for one's profession. Forum posters being rude and disrespectful is nothing new, but when someone with an official Bioware avatar dismisses a professional piece as 'indiscernable from other fan feedback' it probably goes a long way toward explaining why these forums are often such a horrible place. You don't have to like the article, but I'm very disappointed to see you join in the stoning. 

Why do you think that calling something "fan feedback" is supposed to be an insult?

[Das Tentakel]

Dorrieb wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...
...some of the strange stuff like "bad" British accents (that a genuine British accent is a "bad" accent reminds me of those that thought that an actual french speaking Corinne was a "bad french accent")

Allan, not to contradict that Nicholas Boulton is genuinely British, but the author of the article, Richard Cobbett, is also British and lives in England, where people do have an ear for a British accent.

I've seen Cobbett's criticism more often made by Britons. It may have something to do with perceiving / detecting the accent in question as being an (slightly too) exaggerated form of an upper middle class accent or something like that. Subconsciously recognising it as (somewhat) ' fake', if I make any sense.
If you perceive an accent to be noticeably exaggerated (in your own language or a foreign one you know very well), it starts feeling fake and somewhat comical.

Boulton himself called it 'not too far removed from my own natural speaking voice, except...more accentuated and heroic in style'  in an interview on the RPG site.
Maybe Cobbett and other British critics are somehow noticing the voice director's influence; maybe they just dislike the accent. Maybe both.

Modifié par Das Tentakel, 10 février 2013 - 09:09 .

[Nerevar-as]

billy the squid wrote...

StElmo wrote...

Twisted Path wrote...

Yeah, didn't PC Gamer call Dragon Age 2 the "RPG of the Decade"? If it was so perfect what is there to fix? Hmm...

1. Stop attributing a whole site edited by different people to one persons opinion.
2. Dragon Age 2 was awesome - and best RPG of the decade is a valid opinion

No.

The entire article was mercilessly lampooned until it got to the point were they made another "alternative" review. Doesn't hold the editor in chief who should be reading the content of what he places in the magazine and by implication the entire magazine in a good light.

DA2 as best RPG of the decade is not a valid opinion when the reviewer skips and glosses his way over some of the most glaring faults of the entire game.  Particularly when round the corner came TW2, Skyrim and others, which put DA2 to shame and exposed it for the rushed mess it was.

If he had brought them up discussed and stated why he didn't find it an issue, that's fine, he didn't. 

By this time I think it should be taken for granted there´s a conflict of interest when reviewing AAA games. It´s come to the point where some media call gamers entitled for expressing their displeasure with a product they´ve spent a lot of money to get. Fun industry this that blames the customer for a product´s fails.

[billy the squid]

Nerevar-as wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

StElmo wrote...

Twisted Path wrote...

Yeah, didn't PC Gamer call Dragon Age 2 the "RPG of the Decade"? If it was so perfect what is there to fix? Hmm...

1. Stop attributing a whole site edited by different people to one persons opinion.
2. Dragon Age 2 was awesome - and best RPG of the decade is a valid opinion

No.

The entire article was mercilessly lampooned until it got to the point were they made another "alternative" review. Doesn't hold the editor in chief who should be reading the content of what he places in the magazine and by implication the entire magazine in a good light.

DA2 as best RPG of the decade is not a valid opinion when the reviewer skips and glosses his way over some of the most glaring faults of the entire game.  Particularly when round the corner came TW2, Skyrim and others, which put DA2 to shame and exposed it for the rushed mess it was.

If he had brought them up discussed and stated why he didn't find it an issue, that's fine, he didn't. 

By this time I think it should be taken for granted there´s a conflict of interest when reviewing AAA games. It´s come to the point where some media call gamers entitled for expressing their displeasure with a product they´ve spent a lot of money to get. Fun industry this that blames the customer for a product´s fails.

Yep. It's a sad state of affairs that people like Yhatzee from Zero Punctuation, are given credibility as proper reviewers, because of the disappointment due to the level of bias some review and gaming articles engage in. 

[Atakuma]

Nerevar-as wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

StElmo wrote...

Twisted Path wrote...

Yeah, didn't PC Gamer call Dragon Age 2 the "RPG of the Decade"? If it was so perfect what is there to fix? Hmm...

1. Stop attributing a whole site edited by different people to one persons opinion.
2. Dragon Age 2 was awesome - and best RPG of the decade is a valid opinion

No.

The entire article was mercilessly lampooned until it got to the point were they made another "alternative" review. Doesn't hold the editor in chief who should be reading the content of what he places in the magazine and by implication the entire magazine in a good light.

DA2 as best RPG of the decade is not a valid opinion when the reviewer skips and glosses his way over some of the most glaring faults of the entire game.  Particularly when round the corner came TW2, Skyrim and others, which put DA2 to shame and exposed it for the rushed mess it was.

If he had brought them up discussed and stated why he didn't find it an issue, that's fine, he didn't. 

By this time I think it should be taken for granted there´s a conflict of interest when reviewing AAA games. It´s come to the point where some media call gamers entitled for expressing their displeasure with a product they´ve spent a lot of money to get. Fun industry this that blames the customer for a product´s fails.

No one was being called entitled for voicing their displeasure. They were being called entitled because they were making demands.

[Dorrieb]

stormhit13 wrote...
Why do you think that calling something "fan feedback" is supposed to be an insult?

Telling a professional writer that his article is indistinguishable from fan feedback is like telling J.K. Rowling that her books aren't any better than your 14-year old niece's fan fiction, or telling an abstract painter that 'your five-year old could do that'. It's a dis.  A deliberate one. You know that career you've spent the last 17 years in, that you've dedicated your life to, that you're supposed to be really good at? Well guess what? You're no better than a bored student typing out half-considered thoughts in between bites of cheesy snacks. Whaddya think of that, huh Shakespeare?

The next time that a Bioware employee grumbles about the toxic environment on these forums, they ought to remember that they seem all too happy to set that tone when directed at someone else. Remember this when DA3 comes out.

[AlexJK]

Dorrieb wrote...

Telling a professional writer that his article is indistinguishable from fan feedback is like telling J.K. Rowling that her books aren't any better than your 14-year old niece's fan fiction, or telling an abstract painter that 'your five-year old could do that'.

It's fair comment if it's true...

Are you a massive Richard Cobbett fan or something?

[Leanansidhe]

Dorrieb wrote...

stormhit13 wrote...
Why do you think that calling something "fan feedback" is supposed to be an insult?

Telling a professional writer that his article is indistinguishable from fan feedback is like telling J.K. Rowling that her books aren't any better than your 14-year old niece's fan fiction, or telling an abstract painter that 'your five-year old could do that'. It's a dis.  A deliberate one. You know that career you've spent the last 17 years in, that you've dedicated your life to, that you're supposed to be really good at? Well guess what? You're no better than a bored student typing out half-considered thoughts in between bites of cheesy snacks. Whaddya think of that, huh Shakespeare?

The next time that a Bioware employee grumbles about the toxic environment on these forums, they ought to remember that they seem all too happy to set that tone when directed at someone else. Remember this when DA3 comes out.

Are you actually comparing this hack to J.K. Rowling?  Or, even better, Shakespeare??  Seriously?

Also, someone is taking this a bit personally.  Who did you say you were again?<_<

Modifié par SKRemaks, 10 février 2013 - 10:02 .

[Firky]

Blair Brown wrote...

My problem with it as well was the gaffes, and lack of research. ie. "going forward they should have playable races" (even though its already been stated the game is human only.)

In my experience, trying to make even modest monies on a regular basis from writing about games means that it is incredibly hard to know every detail about everything. Especially, before games have been announced, showed, covered in press releases, etc.

That's not to say press shouldn't try to know everything, just that it's not super realistic, especially on a shoestring. Full-on fans are always likely to be a little bit ahead, IMO.

I think people who write about games, in general, are experienced with systems, genres etc, but is not necessarily your person who plays games multiple times. This reads to me like the writer is providing thoughtful opinions, but based on a light-ish engagement with DA (compared to people who know every in and out of the games.) I think that's entirely valid, and I'd assume that was still very useful feedback. (Given that lots of people who buy DA could be expected to do the same, or less.)

(I think the point about follower customisation highlighted something for me, too. How to get a balance between unique look and the player equipping stuff. i don't really dig what I've heard so far of how DA3's doing it, but I dunno how I'd improve it, either.)

[Renmiri1]

Dorrieb wrote...

stormhit13 wrote...
Why do you think that calling something "fan feedback" is supposed to be an insult?

Telling a professional writer that his article is indistinguishable from fan feedback is like telling J.K. Rowling that her books aren't any better than your 14-year old niece's fan fiction, or telling an abstract painter that 'your five-year old could do that'. It's a dis.  A deliberate one. You know that career you've spent the last 17 years in, that you've dedicated your life to, that you're supposed to be really good at? Well guess what? You're no better than a bored student typing out half-considered thoughts in between bites of cheesy snacks. Whaddya think of that, huh Shakespeare?

The next time that a Bioware employee grumbles about the toxic environment on these forums, they ought to remember that they seem all too happy to set that tone when directed at someone else. Remember this when DA3 comes out.

Are you for real ?

Since when this is good journalism ?

the Dragon Age series – while not necessarily playing it safe – has always felt like a pretty sterile, unsurprising world 

something of a cliche storm 

No reason given to the "sterile, unsurprising", it is because the writer says so. That is opinion and belongs on a forum not a professionaly written article

Geralt’s controversy-shrugging adventures make it look like a cartoon in comparison, and without coming across as gratuitous

No they don't, TW is gratuitous and sexist, again the author is passing opinion as fact

No Light/Dark Side Counter. Childish. Boring. Any system where you can commit atrocities and make up for it by handing over a few presents is 

The gift system only worked for reputation "erasing" in DAO, not DA2. In DA2 gifts were pretty much irrelevant. And WTF. What atrocities ? What is this guy even talking about ? Did he give a gift to Meredith to make up for Anders blowing up the Chantry ? The bomb is pretty much the only atrocity that comes to mind and wasn't even done by the PC.

And seriously, who writes "Childish. Boring." and expect to not be called a BSN troll ?

Those were just the first paragraphs. The entire article is that way. Gratuitous insults and opinions dispersed as fact, no objectivity.

Link a serious article and you might get a serious answer. This article isn't it

Firky wrote...


I think people who write about games, in general, are experienced with systems, genres etc, but is not necessarily your person who plays games multiple times. This reads to me like the writer is providing thoughtful opinions, but based on a light-ish engagement with DA

So someone who doesn't know a topic is qualified to give advice on it and is even called "thoughtul" for pulling stuff out of his arse. Riiight
The guy didn't do his homework and doesn't deserve to be called a journalist. Because he isn't

Modifié par Renmiri1, 10 février 2013 - 11:04 .

[Firky]

(I know you weren't replying to me) but I've been paid to write an opinion column on games for 5.5 years. I don't really write things like, "This is childish, boring." etc, most of the time, I tend to make fun of myself rather than others, but that's what an opinion column is/can be. I read my colleagues' opinion columns every month and they can be pretty brutal, at times.

Previews, reviews, critique are a different kettle of fish. (But, depending on the media outlet, can still be influenced by opinion. If it wasn't concurrently providing quality information, though, ...)

Edit. Sorry. Then you were replying to me.

So, yeah. I'd say that, within the strictures of his work (which I'm taking a reasonable guess at) and this kind of article, I'd say that it was a fair enough piece. (I wouldn't agree with everything, but why not raise points?)

(Edit. PS. I didn't call him a journalist. For example, my role crosses into journalism, at times, but I don't see myself as a journalist. I see myself as a hobbyist. I wouldn't really see this article as having a large component related to actual journalism. It's just an opinion piece.)

Modifié par Firky, 10 février 2013 - 11:12 .

[Renmiri1]

Firky wrote...

(I know you weren't replying to me) but I've been paid to write an opinion column on games for 5.5 years. I don't really write things like, "This is childish, boring." etc, most of the time, I tend to make fun of myself rather than others, but that's what an opinion column is/can be. I read my colleagues' opinion columns every month and they can be pretty brutal, at times.

Previews, reviews, critique are a different kettle of fish. (But, depending on the media outlet, can still be influenced by opinion. If it wasn't concurrently providing quality information, though, ...)

Edit. Sorry. Then you were replying to me.

I have not read a column by you - that I know of - but I see no quality information being given on the article, I see someone who doesn't know DA, doesn't like DA talking about nonsense (Nimpho elves ??? WTF ??) and selling their favorite game TW2 under the guise of discussing a game.

And if you look on the threads here you will find out that I agree with the author that DAO is full of clichees. But even when not writing a column I consider it lame to just insult without backing my opinion with examples.

Gaming journalism is at an all time low and this article and the attitude that you can write about something pretending to know it is one big reason why.

PS: We know you gaming industtry "journalists" write glowing / disparaging reviews about games you haven't played or even spent 5 minutes googling about. You guys are not fooling anyone but yourselves.

Modifié par Renmiri1, 10 février 2013 - 11:13 .