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PC Gamer: 'What we want to see from Dragon Age 3'


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#201
Sutekh

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Dorrieb wrote...

Telling a professional writer that his article is indistinguishable from fan feedback is like telling J.K. Rowling that her books aren't any better than your 14-year old niece's fan fiction, or telling an abstract painter that 'your five-year old could do that'. It's a dis.  A deliberate one. You know that career you've spent the last 17 years in, that you've dedicated your life to, that you're supposed to be really good at? Well guess what? You're no better than a bored student typing out half-considered thoughts in between bites of cheesy snacks. Whaddya think of that, huh Shakespeare?

Honestly, I read this article without the slightest preconception. Never heard of the author, don't have a beef with PC Gamers (on the principle that everyone makes mistake and you shouldn't be held accountable for the faults of your neighbour etc...). I even agree with it on some points.

But the first thing I thought was that it was anything but professional. There are blatant research failures. Loghain's beard, for instance. I know he corrected it, but after someone pointed it to him in the comments, and his credibility started to plummet from there: The screenie of DAO to illustrate a point about DA2, then the criticism of DA being too manichean, while anyone who played DAO (and DA2), knows it isn't the case, and it went on and on...

It doesn't help that it's presented as an universal opinion ("we"), or at least the one shared by Those Who Know What Good Is, a beautiful crowd of True Gamers in which the author includes himself and his readers.

Each and every point and the corresponding argumentation seem to magically match the more vocal internet posters (again, whether I agree or not), down to the mandatory but oh so tired Witcher 2 comparison, equating the latter's maturity to the amount of sex and violence contained (while the Witcher's maturity lies elsewhere entirely). I'm sorry, but it sounds very much like a "let's please the horde" essay. An exercise in demagogy more than a genuine analysis.

Keep in mind that I (and probably most if not all posters here) criticize the article, not the man who wrote it, so your defensiveness is a bit misplaced. You're perfectly OK with the enormous amount of criticism in this article, why aren't you with ours? Opinions are opinions and should be respected as such, no matter where they come from (as long as they don't disguise themselves as vox populi and try to gain credibility by being an "Article" instead of a list of demands that have already been made a thousand times).

Also comparing a game article with Rowling or Shakespeare is overkill. Seriously.

((And Rowling certainly doesn't write 14-year old's fanfic, but, Maker, that epilogue... :blink:)) 

#202
Firky

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Renmiri1 wrote...

PS: We know you gaming industtry "journalists" write glowing / disparaging reviews about games you haven't played or even spent 5 minutes googling about. You guys are not fooling anyone but yourselves.


:P That's about as far from my experience in writing for the magazine, and knowing my colleagues and their work ethic, as a statement could possibly be. But, I wouldn't expect people to get the ins and outs of it.

My point was just that - it's an opinion piece, and the reality is that it can be hard to get every detail correct, all the time, especially this far pre-release. It's just raising some points that the writer thinks are important.

#203
Dutchess

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Renmiri1 wrote...

No reason given to the "sterile, unsurprising", it is because the writer says so. That is opinion and belongs on a forum not a professionaly written article

Geralt’s controversy-shrugging adventures make it look like a cartoon in comparison, and without coming across as gratuitous

No they don't, TW is gratuitous and sexist, again the author is passing opinion as fact


And what exactly is it that you're doing then? You keep repeating that TW is sexist, yet don't come much further in your arguments than that it shows some naked women. Oh, and the naked women aren't ugly. You are doing what you are accusing the author of.

#204
Commander Kurt

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@Dean the young - Wow, thanks for taking the time to explain that! I'm not sure I got it in detail, but at least I won't go through life thinking everyone referring to star maps are trying to discuss skyrim leveling mechanics. :D


Dorrieb wrote...

stormhit13 wrote...
Why do you think that calling something "fan feedback" is supposed to be an insult?


Telling a professional writer that his article is indistinguishable from fan feedback is like telling J.K. Rowling that her books aren't any better than your 14-year old niece's fan fiction, or telling an abstract painter that 'your five-year old could do that'. It's a dis.  A deliberate one. You know that career you've spent the last 17 years in, that you've dedicated your life to, that you're supposed to be really good at? Well guess what? You're no better than a bored student typing out half-considered thoughts in between bites of cheesy snacks. Whaddya think of that, huh Shakespeare?

The next time that a Bioware employee grumbles about the toxic environment on these forums, they ought to remember that they seem all too happy to set that tone when directed at someone else. Remember this when DA3 comes out.


Maybe this is just a misunderstanding. What is it in the article that you feel makes it different from fan feedback? Is it the quality of the writing? Or the research done? 

I'm asking in part because I disagree with you, I don't find it better than a forum post here and I'm curious about what you think made it professional. But also, I think you may be reading to much into Allan's response. The points brought up by the journalist are points that are frequently brought up by the fans as well, they have heard all this before in the form of fan feedback. The writer didn't bring anything new to the table, and is saying the same things as (some) fans.

Do you see what I'm getting at? Even if the article was, in your mind AND the dev's, akin to Shakespeare it would still be making the exact same points that fan feedback has been supplying for years now. Thus, in every way that matters, it is indistinguishable from fan feedback. Not a slight, just a fact.

#205
Renmiri1

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renjility wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...

No reason given to the "sterile, unsurprising", it is because the writer says so. That is opinion and belongs on a forum not a professionaly written article

Geralt’s controversy-shrugging adventures make it look like a cartoon in comparison, and without coming across as gratuitous

No they don't, TW is gratuitous and sexist, again the author is passing opinion as fact


And what exactly is it that you're doing then? You keep repeating that TW is sexist, yet don't come much further in your arguments than that it shows some naked women. Oh, and the naked women aren't ugly. You are doing what you are accusing the author of.


Maybe but you don't see me saying my opinion is "professional journalism" do you ? Or calling my rantings anything but my not so humble opinion. :D

The author wrote an opinion piece. It is a badly researched opinion and deserves to be compared to my rantings here because it is - as you said yourself - exactly the same thing. Except I believe I understand more about DA and have played the Witcher, which the article author doesn't seem to have bothered before he decided to place himself as judge of all things game worthy. 

Firky wrote...

:P That's about as far from my experience in writing for the magazine, and knowing my colleagues and their work ethic, as a statement could possibly be. But, I wouldn't expect people to get the ins and outs of it. 

My point was just that - it's an opinion piece, and the reality is that it can be hard to get every detail correct, all the time, especially this far pre-release. It's just raising some points that the writer thinks are important.


Again, I am not talking about your articles as I don't know them. 

I am very biased against the gaming media and have been for ages, even before the ME3 fiasco and Jessica Chobot. You say that is an opinion piece, but it is not being presented as such. That is one of the problems I have with it.

Another is the lack of research.  In the age of Fox news, maybe it isn't surprising that the game press doesn't think researching an article is necessary. But it doesn't earn my respect.

My 14 year old daughter writes fan fiction and guess what - she does research to write it!  So do I for my work and believe me I'm pressed for time, budget and deadlines like everyone is. So I do not respect someone that thinks it is enough to just pretend to know a topic, in the age of google at everyone's fingertips. It is a lazyness and lack of respect for readers, is what it is. Because surely the author could spend 5 seconds googling Loghain's beard or whatever else but he didn't because he thought we readers are so dumb we would never notice. 

I don't have to listen or respect someone who thinks me - the reader - and his job / professionalism is not worth spending 5 minutes googling a topic. 

He gets from me the same respect as the average BSN troll. Less even because the BSN trolls at least know the game. :P

Modifié par Renmiri1, 10 février 2013 - 11:37 .


#206
Dorrieb

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Commander Kurt wrote...
...I'm curious about what you think made it professional.


Kurt, the definition of a professional is someone who gets paid to do what he does. For example, if you make your living as a mechanic, then you are a 'professional mechanic', but if you just like to tinker with engines then you are an 'amateur mechanic'.

Even if the article was, in your mind AND the dev's, akin to Shakespeare...


Sigh... 'Shakespeare' is a slang epithet for 'writer', especially in smart-alecky old-brooklin-y type speech that might include a 'Whaddaya' in it. For example:

(3:32)

I am not comparing Richard  to Shakespeare, or 'What we Want to See from Dragon Age 3' to 'Coriolanus'. The fact that I even have to explain this...

#207
Dutchess

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Renmiri1 wrote...

renjility wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...

No reason given to the "sterile, unsurprising", it is because the writer says so. That is opinion and belongs on a forum not a professionaly written article

Geralt’s controversy-shrugging adventures make it look like a cartoon in comparison, and without coming across as gratuitous

No they don't, TW is gratuitous and sexist, again the author is passing opinion as fact


And what exactly is it that you're doing then? You keep repeating that TW is sexist, yet don't come much further in your arguments than that it shows some naked women. Oh, and the naked women aren't ugly. You are doing what you are accusing the author of.


Maybe but you don't see me saying my opinion is "professional journalism" do you ? Or calling my rantings anything but my not so humble opinion. :D

The author wrote an opinion piece. It is a badly researched opinion and deserves to be compared to my rantings here because it is - as you said yourself - exactly the same thing. Except I believe I understand more about DA and have played the Witcher, which the article author doesn't seem to have bothered before he decided to place himself as judge of all things game worthy. 


Heh, very well then.:lol: 

I think he has played the DA games, although probably once and some time ago (he did call the Deep Roads boring, which is -obviously- an opinion, but likely the opinion of someone who has trudged trough those dungeons). Misremembering something about Loghain's appearance doesn't invalidate all of his points, though, just as not knowing that the new protagonist will again be a human. Bioware has been very silent about the game, with only a minimal announcement. It's not fair to then blame a reviewer that he has not continuously lurked on this forum to catch the tiny bits of inormation that are occasionally (rarely) dropped. I think he touches upon a few things that make his article something more than a mindless repetition of previous feedback. This:

It’s not a question of making Dragon Age a dark universe so much as actually living up to the darkness already written into it, instead of just claiming to be for adults


did stand out for me and gave the impression at least some thought has been put into it. That doesn't make the article of supreme quality, but does place it a bit above a silly rant. I agree with the point made here, and don't think it is meant as an argument for more nudity. For some reason the more gruesome things DA2 tried hit their mark, at least for me.

#208
AlexJK

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Dorrieb wrote...

Commander Kurt wrote...
...I'm curious about what you think made it professional.

Kurt, the definition of a professional is someone who gets paid to do what he does. For example, if you make your living as a mechanic, then you are a 'professional mechanic', but if you just like to tinker with engines then you are an 'amateur mechanic'.

Interesting. So you agree that the only factor separating the PC Gamer article from the comments of any person on these forum is payment?

Modifié par AlexJK, 10 février 2013 - 11:47 .


#209
billy the squid

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AlexJK wrote...

Dorrieb wrote...

Commander Kurt wrote...
...I'm curious about what you think made it professional.

Kurt, the definition of a professional is someone who gets paid to do what he does. For example, if you make your living as a mechanic, then you are a 'professional mechanic', but if you just like to tinker with engines then you are an 'amateur mechanic'.

Interesting. So you agree that the only factor separating the PC Gamer article from the comments of any person on these forum is payment?


From some of the articles I've read yes. Infact, I'd go so far in saying that with some I have the distinct impression the author drank half a bottle of whiskey before mashing his face into the keyboard and presenting the innarticulate mess to the editor. Who, with childlike glee, approved it with a proverbial rubber stamp kit.

Perhaps I'm being unkind, but it's also the main reason I don't read review articles for games, the ones which actually take the time to deal with the relevant pros and cons are few and far between.

Modifié par billy the squid, 11 février 2013 - 12:08 .


#210
Renmiri1

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billy the squid wrote...

AlexJK wrote...

Dorrieb wrote...

Commander Kurt wrote...
...I'm curious about what you think made it professional.

Kurt, the definition of a professional is someone who gets paid to do what he does. For example, if you make your living as a mechanic, then you are a 'professional mechanic', but if you just like to tinker with engines then you are an 'amateur mechanic'.

Interesting. So you agree that the only factor separating the PC Gamer article from the comments of any person on these forum is payment?


From some of the articles I've read yes. Infact, I'd go so far in saying that with some I have the distinct impression the author drank half a bottle of whiskey before mashing his face into the keyboard and presenting the innarticulate mess to the editor. Who, with childlike glee, approved it with a proverbial with a rubber stamp kit.

Perhaps I'm being unkind, but it's also the main reason I don't read review articles for games, the ones which actually take the time to deal with the relevant pros and cons are few and far between.




Same here! :P

My 14 year old's fanfic is done with more care and research! :D

#211
Dorrieb

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AlexJK wrote...
Interesting. So you agree that the only factor separating the PC Gamer article from the comments of any person on these forum is payment?


Does any person on these forums write well enough and reliably enough to not only receive payment for it, but actually make their living at it? As it happens, no I don't agree, because there is a bit of a difference between what you write on a forum for free just because you like to argue, and what you write professionally when the difference between a good article and a bad one means your rent.

I don't know what you do for a living, but I doubt you would welcome the idea that any person on these forums could do it just as well as you do, and for free.

#212
Neon Rising Winter

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Dorrieb wrote...

AlexJK wrote...
Interesting. So you agree that the only factor separating the PC Gamer article from the comments of any person on these forum is payment?


Does any person on these forums write well enough and reliably enough to not only receive payment for it, but actually make their living at it? As it happens, no I don't agree, because there is a bit of a difference between what you write on a forum for free just because you like to argue, and what you write professionally when the difference between a good article and a bad one means your rent.

I don't know what you do for a living, but I doubt you would welcome the idea that any person on these forums could do it just as well as you do, and for free.



I agree people are being a little unfair to the poor guy. It might
not be a shining example of games journalism at its finest, but come on
the guy's being paid to write a few hundred words on an upcoming game,
generate a few page views and do it to a schedule. Looks like what he's
done to me.

Mind you, I don't agree with your last point. If anyone wants to claim the could do my job as well as me for free they are welcome to do so. I don't believe them, I doubt my employers would, so claim away.

#213
philippe willaume

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Renmiri1 wrote...

snip

@Renmiri1
Well no it is not quite the same, you have a tendancy to use facts to support your arguments, so it kinds puts you in a different league.

@ renjility 
we can't really deny that there is a certain objectification of women in the witcher 2 and to be fair men are not potrayed at their best either.
non obstant of nudity, which is really a function of censorship standard there was some sex scene shot that were a bit on the seedy side. (and some of them where actually very well done).
It does not rub me the wrong way as it does Renmiri1 but I have the same reaction as her when it comes to Supernatural or the Gor books.

On the topic at hand, DA:2 Act III is below the standard of DA:2 Act I and II and in that respect the witcher did not suffer from that.
Players descision had consquences and the ending was varied. (like DA:0 or DA:2 act II and unlike DA:2 act III).
So yes I would like more of that 
phil

#214
snackrat

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This business with "Loghain is the obvious villain"... well, he's not a true 'villain'. He's not evil, he's paranoid.

1) Loghain is afraid of (and hates) the Orlesians.
2) a: The Wardens are based in Orlais, and b: were responsible for the huge mess in Dragon Age: The Calling.
...so Loghain does not trust the Wardens, for two reasons.

3) The beacon int he Tower of Ishal was supposed to be lit by Loghain's own men, who he trusts.
4) Cailen sends in two Wardens.... ....the beacon is mysteriously delayed.

As the player, we KNOW it was delayed because spawn entered and slaughtered the soldiers inside. However, this was NEVER EXPECTED because it would only be an attractive target if they plan is known! If your warden has high enough cunning, you can even point this out: "Why attack the tower at all? Unless they knew about the plan." (Alis: "Now that's a scary thought. They couldn't know about the plan! How? They're not that smart! ...are they?")

So, though the Wardens are the only reason the beacon got lit at all, all Loghain sees is that the King sent some ORLESIAN so-called "Wardens" - the order that roped his friend Maric into a dark battle for the worse - and suddenly the beacon he trusted his men to light to delayed so badly that leading his own men in would be suicide.

This is why he accuses the Wardens of killing the king. Not for power, which Alis assumes, but for fear and hate. It's easy to assume Alis is right, simply because he's on your side. You spend more time with him. That's pretty much how 'real' good and evil work - it's all about perspective.

Loghain is not a stereotypical, tyrannical, evil 'villian'. He's an antagonist.

#215
duckley

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As an aside - the work I am involved with gets reported on in the media often and let me tell you - there are journalists who publish material that is inaccurate and/or biased, It is quite disturbing actually. I have been around long enough to remember the days when journalism was far more cautious about reporting facts and balanced perspectives. It is incredably frustrating to me. I really dont believe half of what I read or hear on the media anymore!

We all know the main issues with DA2 and I suspect maost of those will be be addrssed in DA3. As an older woman, I did not find The Witcher and The Witcher 2 to be offensive, and believe that sex is a wonderful part of life and love. I have no problem with sex being a part of video games when done tastefully (which of course is subjective). I really did find it silly that they had their clothes on while making love in DA2. At least in DAO they had their underwear on! Now we are getting somewhere LOL.

#216
draken-heart

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Non-party romance options. The ability to romance someone who was not a member of the party/squad was the best thing about ME3, even if the romances were off.

#217
Direwolf0294

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I have to agree with a lot of what was said in the article. I didn't agree with stuff like non voiced PC, but the rest was pretty good.

#218
HTTP 404

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that's a long list

Here's my revised one

1. Bioware create a shared vision of what the game should be.

2. Turn off internetz

#219
bleetman

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Dorrieb wrote...

Telling a professional writer that his article is indistinguishable from fan feedback is like telling J.K. Rowling that her books aren't any better than your 14-year old niece's fan fiction, or telling an abstract painter that 'your five-year old could do that'. It's a dis.  A deliberate one. You know that career you've spent the last 17 years in, that you've dedicated your life to, that you're supposed to be really good at? Well guess what? You're no better than a bored student typing out half-considered thoughts in between bites of cheesy snacks. Whaddya think of that, huh Shakespeare?

But telling a professional voice actor that they sound like **** is alright, I take it.

Journalists that are respectful get respect. Those that aren't, don't, and don't deserve any. This isn't a complicated concept. You don't get to hide behind the barricade of being a 'professional writer' and suddenly become immune to criticism if your writing doesn't maintain the associated professional standards people expect from such.

Not that I really care for this bizarre notion that being paid to write automatically means you're good at it. It probably should, but a glance at any tabloid newspaper of your choosing should aptly demonstrate the contrary.

Modifié par bleetman, 11 février 2013 - 01:28 .


#220
HTTP 404

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Dorrieb wrote...

AlexJK wrote...
Interesting. So you agree that the only factor separating the PC Gamer article from the comments of any person on these forum is payment?


Does any person on these forums write well enough and reliably enough to not only receive payment for it, but actually make their living at it? As it happens, no I don't agree, because there is a bit of a difference between what you write on a forum for free just because you like to argue, and what you write professionally when the difference between a good article and a bad one means your rent.

I don't know what you do for a living, but I doubt you would welcome the idea that any person on these forums could do it just as well as you do, and for free.


I disagree.  There are so many writers these days due to the internet and most of them are freelancers.  A better comparison is a paparazzi is to a professional photographer as an online writer is to professional writer. 

#221
Guest_Puddi III_*

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lol, 'professional game journalists.' Apparently some of them don't mind being associated with cheesy snacks.

#222
themikefest

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I read the article and he's entilted to his opinion.

I enjoyed DA2 with Jo Wyatt being the voice of femhawke.

As I posted in a similiar thread the only things that concern me is the story and characters. If they are ok, then I know I will be replaying the game a lot.

Modifié par themikefest, 11 février 2013 - 01:36 .


#223
fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb

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Witcher 2 actually has a horrible console-y UI

#224
Conduit0

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bleetman wrote...

Dorrieb wrote...

Telling a professional writer that his article is indistinguishable from fan feedback is like telling J.K. Rowling that her books aren't any better than your 14-year old niece's fan fiction, or telling an abstract painter that 'your five-year old could do that'. It's a dis.  A deliberate one. You know that career you've spent the last 17 years in, that you've dedicated your life to, that you're supposed to be really good at? Well guess what? You're no better than a bored student typing out half-considered thoughts in between bites of cheesy snacks. Whaddya think of that, huh Shakespeare?

But telling a professional voice actor that they sound like **** is alright, I take it.

Journalists that are respectful get respect. Those that aren't, don't, and don't deserve any. This isn't a complicated concept. You don't get to hide behind the barricade of being a 'professional writer' and suddenly become immune to criticism if your writing doesn't maintain the associated professional standards people expect from such.

Not that I really care for this bizarre notion that being paid to write automatically means you're good at it. It probably should, but a glance at any tabloid newspaper of your choosing should aptly demonstrate the contrary.

I can completely dismiss the myth that getting paid to do something means you're good at it with two words, Uwe Boll.
:whistle:

#225
syllogi

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Dorrieb wrote...

stormhit13 wrote...
Why do you think that calling something "fan feedback" is supposed to be an insult?


Telling a professional writer that his article is indistinguishable from fan feedback is like telling J.K. Rowling that her books aren't any better than your 14-year old niece's fan fiction, or telling an abstract painter that 'your five-year old could do that'. It's a dis.  A deliberate one. You know that career you've spent the last 17 years in, that you've dedicated your life to, that you're supposed to be really good at? Well guess what? You're no better than a bored student typing out half-considered thoughts in between bites of cheesy snacks. Whaddya think of that, huh Shakespeare?

The next time that a Bioware employee grumbles about the toxic environment on these forums, they ought to remember that they seem all too happy to set that tone when directed at someone else. Remember this when DA3 comes out.


This particular article, however, isn't well researched at all, and it's an opinion piece.  Sorry, but we're not discussing a critic like Pauline Kael or Andre Bazin.  I'm not even sure this writer has even finished playing either game.  So, in my view, it's not rude or dismissive for a Bioware employee to see this article as not more worthy than fan feedback.

If a "video game journalist" wants to be taken seriously, maybe they should put some work into their pieces.  A quick glance at the Dragon Age wiki would have helped immensely, if he didn't want to play DA:O or DA2 again just for reference purposes.  Otherwise, their opinion pieces don't really hold much weight at all, with fans, or the video game companies they're inaccurately writing about.