239 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

Fair enough, but the point I am trying to make is that if merril had not done any of this in the first place, the possession and death of her keeper, and the death of her entire clan would not have happend. Inevitably something bad was going to happen.

True, but if Merrill's parents hadn't had sex at that particular time, Merrill wouldn't have existed at all and none of this would have happened either... but I assume you wouldn't blame them for that. It's like this here. Also, the death of her clan only happens if you let it.

[Gamercat]

And on another note, I doubt we will be seeing Merril in Dragon Age Inquisition. Considering that it is possible to kill her, as well as the fact that there are a lot of people with mixed feelings about her. I doubt bioware would invest resources into her character, but hey you never know.

[Xilizhra]

hawkman96j wrote...

And on another note, I doubt we will be seeing Merril in Dragon Age Inquisition. Considering that it is possible to kill her, as well as the fact that there are a lot of people with mixed feelings about her. I doubt bioware would invest resources into her character, but hey you never know.

I confess, I do hope they include her.

[Gamercat]

Xilizhra wrote...

Fair enough, but the point I am trying to make is that if merril had not done any of this in the first place, the possession and death of her keeper, and the death of her entire clan would not have happend. Inevitably something bad was going to happen.

True, but if Merrill's parents hadn't had sex at that particular time, Merrill wouldn't have existed at all and none of this would have happened either... but I assume you wouldn't blame them for that. It's like this here. Also, the death of her clan only happens if you let it.

Sex isn't a cultural taboo, and demonic possesion and death don't occur because of it.

Modifié par hawkman96j, 12 février 2013 - 05:53 .

[Xilizhra]

hawkman96j wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Fair enough, but the point I am trying to make is that if merril had not done any of this in the first place, the possession and death of her keeper, and the death of her entire clan would not have happend. Inevitably something bad was going to happen.

True, but if Merrill's parents hadn't had sex at that particular time, Merrill wouldn't have existed at all and none of this would have happened either... but I assume you wouldn't blame them for that. It's like this here. Also, the death of her clan only happens if you let it.

Sex isn't a cultural taboo, and demonic possesion and death don't occur because of it.

Nor did demonic possession or death occur because of any of Merrill's actions, but rather Marethari's.

[Gamercat]

Xilizhra wrote...

hawkman96j wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Fair enough, but the point I am trying to make is that if merril had not done any of this in the first place, the possession and death of her keeper, and the death of her entire clan would not have happend. Inevitably something bad was going to happen.

True, but if Merrill's parents hadn't had sex at that particular time, Merrill wouldn't have existed at all and none of this would have happened either... but I assume you wouldn't blame them for that. It's like this here. Also, the death of her clan only happens if you let it.

Sex isn't a cultural taboo, and demonic possesion and death don't occur because of it.

Nor did demonic possession or death occur because of any of Merrill's actions, but rather Marethari's.

Merril chose to restore the Eluvian. Merril is the one who saught out a pride demon. Merril is the one who chose to use blood magic, after the keeper told her not to do ANY of this. She was warned, she made a descision, and her clan and keeper would never have died if she had just listend to the keeper in the first place.

[Xilizhra]

hawkman96j wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

hawkman96j wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Fair enough, but the point I am trying to make is that if merril had not done any of this in the first place, the possession and death of her keeper, and the death of her entire clan would not have happend. Inevitably something bad was going to happen.

True, but if Merrill's parents hadn't had sex at that particular time, Merrill wouldn't have existed at all and none of this would have happened either... but I assume you wouldn't blame them for that. It's like this here. Also, the death of her clan only happens if you let it.

Sex isn't a cultural taboo, and demonic possesion and death don't occur because of it.

Nor did demonic possession or death occur because of any of Merrill's actions, but rather Marethari's.

Merril chose to restore the Eluvian. Merril is the one who saught out a pride demon. Merril is the one who chose to use blood magic, after the keeper told her not to do ANY of this. She was warned, she made a descision, and her clan and keeper would never have died if she had just listend to the keeper in the first place.

But more importantly, her Keeper wouldn't have died had she not agreed to become an abomination in the first place, and Merrill probably would have been fine as well. And the clan's death is completely their own fault, as they're the ones who attack.

[Gamercat]

Xilizhra wrote...

hawkman96j wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

hawkman96j wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Fair enough, but the point I am trying to make is that if merril had not done any of this in the first place, the possession and death of her keeper, and the death of her entire clan would not have happend. Inevitably something bad was going to happen.

True, but if Merrill's parents hadn't had sex at that particular time, Merrill wouldn't have existed at all and none of this would have happened either... but I assume you wouldn't blame them for that. It's like this here. Also, the death of her clan only happens if you let it.

Sex isn't a cultural taboo, and demonic possesion and death don't occur because of it.

Nor did demonic possession or death occur because of any of Merrill's actions, but rather Marethari's.

Merril chose to restore the Eluvian. Merril is the one who saught out a pride demon. Merril is the one who chose to use blood magic, after the keeper told her not to do ANY of this. She was warned, she made a descision, and her clan and keeper would never have died if she had just listend to the keeper in the first place.

But more importantly, her Keeper wouldn't have died had she not agreed to become an abomination in the first place, and Merrill probably would have been fine as well. And the clan's death is completely their own fault, as they're the ones who attack.

The keeper herself said that the demon would have used the Eluvian as a portal out of it's prison and that Merril would have been it's first victim. As a possessed blood mage, who knows what kind of damage Merril could have done.

[Knight of Dane]

And we are just going to take the abomination on her word?

[Xilizhra]

The keeper herself said that the demon would have used the Eluvian as a portal out of it's prison and that Merril would have been it's first victim. As a possessed blood mage, who knows what kind of damage Merril could have done.

No, the demon currently inhabiting the Keeper's body said that. It doesn't even make any sense; the Eluvian doesn't link into the statue, or even to the Fade itself, if Witch Hunt is anything to go by. Also, given that the demon taught Merrill blood magic to begin with, I'm pretty sure the resulting abomination would know blood magic regardless of whether or not the mage did.

[Knight of Dane]

^
Actually Audacity/Marethari does use blood magic if you choose to beleive her that the demon is gone after the battle; she stabs Merrill and uses her blood to heal half her health.

Why would she do that if she still had concerns about Merrill, hawkman?

[SeptimusMagistos]

hawkman96j wrote...

Merril chose to restore the Eluvian.

And didn't hurt anyone in the process.

hawkman96j wrote...
Merril is the one who saught out a pride demon.

And didn't hurt anyone in the process.

hawkman96j wrote...

Merril is the one who chose to use blood magic, after the keeper told her not to do ANY of this.

And didn't hurt anyone in the process because she was careful and knew what she was doing.

hawkman96j wrote...
She was warned, she made a descision, and her clan and keeper would never have died if she had just listend to the keeper in the first place.

Which still doesn't make it her fault.

If Merrill gets possessed by a demon in the process of talking to it and hurts others, that's her fault.

If someone else lets themselves get possessed by a demon and tries to hurt Merrill, that's not her fault.

Merrill is responsible for her own actions and the direct consequences thereof, not for what someone else chooses to do in response to those actions.

[TEWR]

Fair enough, but the point I am trying to make is that if merril had not done any of this in the first place, the possession and death of her keeper, and the death of her entire clan would not have happend. Inevitably something bad was going to happen.

Again, flawed logic. Because then you can extend the fault to the Warden and Tamlen for finding it and you could apply this same argument to every choice anyone makes in life. 

Which defeats the point of people being responsible for their own actions. Merrill's actions had no effect on the clan. She abided by protocol by appealing to the Keeper for help and when the Keeper refused to help based on fear, they got into an argument. Merrill then arguably broke protocol by continuing to restore the Eluvian -- since working on all Elven lore is part of the Dalish mantra.

When she learned blood magic and cleansed it of the Taint, she brought it to Marethari to try and appeal to her then. Marethari still refused and was appalled that her First learned blood magic. More arguments ensued, at which point Merrill decided to exile herself so that if any bad **** were to happen, only she would suffer. The idea was that the clan would've -- and should've -- moved on from Sundermount eventually.

That they didn't does not mean Merrill bears any blame. They chose to remain there, they chose to distrust Merrill, they chose to believe Marethari's slander on her, and they made choices that they bear the fault for.

Saying "Inevitably something bad was going to happen" is not accurate at all, because you cannot say anything will happen in the future with certainty. Well, aside from some obvious things like "In one second I'll still be breathing."

But there's no evidence of anything bad happening because of Merrill's blood magic. She refrains from using the ghastly aspects -- demonic summoning into corpses, sacrifice for power, etc. -- and makes sure to only use her powers for good. Blood Magic is not inherently evil. It is a form of magic pure and simple, and thus just a tool. It's more prone to abuse, certainly.

But it in and of itself is not inherently evil, nor does it inevitably lead to bad things happen. Jowan, for instance, did not have bad things happen because he was a blood mage. The events of Redcliffe happened because Jowan poisoned Eamon and because Connor contacted a Demon for assistance.

But blood magic was not a reason for those events.

Likewise, Malcolm Hawke was a blood mage, but nothing bad "inevitably happened" because of it. Granted, he promptly gave it up when he could, but even so. Furthermore, the Wardens often have Mages that use blood magic as it grants them an edge against the Blight. And the DA prequel comics show us that blood magic can heal withered crops, heal wounds, and so on.

[Silas7]

For me Merril was a little puppy giving me the 'eyes' that i just couldn't crush her and tell her she was on her own but other then that never really gave her any attention after her intro to kirkwall.

[BombThatDeadGuy]

I'm going to have to say no I don't want to see Merrill return. Don't get me wrong she's my favorite character out of the Dragon Age series faults and all, but I don't want to see someone return just for the sake of a cameo and Merrill is one of the few characters I don't see adding much to the plot in comparison to others like Leliana, Alistair, or even Cullen.

I like Merrill alot, but you got to ask yourself if she's in the DA:I what would be the big reason why she should be in the game compared to others. Unless it's a good reason then no I don't want to see her.

That said, if she happens to show up in the game I'll probably not hate it unless Bioware does a complete redo on her character and she's like possessed by demons and you have to kill her, good god that would be about as bad as finding out Gamlen is the main protagonist. Perish the thought.

Modifié par BombThatDeadGuy, 12 février 2013 - 09:03 .

[Xilizhra]

I like Merrill alot, but you got to ask yourself if she's in the DA:I what would be the big reason why she should be in the game compared to others. Unless it's a good reason then no I don't want to see her.

Something relating to Eluvians? They're a plot thread stretching throughout both games, and I'd very much like to see that continue.

[dragonflight288]

If Merrill returns, it may be because our new protagonist is asking about the eluvians, and only two people can be called true authorities on them. Morrigan and Merrill. Morrigan may or may not have returned from her trip beyond the Fade, and Merrill is where my Hawke is.

[Cribbian]

She's too busy frolicing in the woods together with Hawke to return. Well, in my headcannon anyway

[Corker]

Xilizhra wrote...

The keeper herself said that the demon would have used the Eluvian as a portal out of it's prison and that Merril would have been it's first victim. As a possessed blood mage, who knows what kind of damage Merril could have done.

No, the demon currently inhabiting the Keeper's body said that. It doesn't even make any sense; the Eluvian doesn't link into the statue, or even to the Fade itself, if Witch Hunt is anything to go by. Also, given that the demon taught Merrill blood magic to begin with, I'm pretty sure the resulting abomination would know blood magic regardless of whether or not the mage did.

I always thought this meant that the demon would use the portal to escape the statue and physically manifest in Merrill's house. (Yeah, they're not supposed to be able to do that, but the Baroness does it in DAA, and we see desire demons running around all over the place.)  She'd be its first victim not by possession, but by getting torn limb from limb.

And we absolutely know that eluvians can be "reprogrammed" as gates, as the one from the DE Origin was changed from "a place beyond the Fade" or wherever eluvians are supposed to go, to "an underground city" with a great darkness in it (I assume Bownammar, where the Archdemon was lairing in the Dead Trenches).

Bioware doesn't generally make blameless, faultless companions.  I adore Merrill and sympathize with her, but I think she was really in over her head with Audacity.  Flemeth tells her as much in "Long Way Home," and every other thing Flemeth says to companions in that scene is bang-on for each of them. 

Her precautions would have failed. Audacity wouldn't have possessed her at the idol.  She would have sent Hawke home so she could work on the eluvian - because we never see her work on it while others are present - it would have worked, and the demon would have 'ported into the Alienage.  If that's not true, then Merrill is a blameless Mary Sue character who never did a wrong thing ever, and I really don't think that was the intention with her.

[Xilizhra]

And we absolutely know that eluvians can be "reprogrammed" as gates, as the one from the DE Origin was changed from "a place beyond the Fade" or wherever eluvians are supposed to go, to "an underground city" with a great darkness in it (I assume Bownammar, where the Archdemon was lairing in the Dead Trenches).

I'm fairly sure the Eluvian was linked directly to the Black City there. There was no indication anywhere in the Dead Trenches that there was an Eluvian link, and while there are a lot of darkspawn there, the taint isn't so thick that it suffuses the very air, or enough to taint the Eluvian just by linking to it.

Bioware doesn't generally make blameless, faultless companions. I adore Merrill and sympathize with her, but I think she was really in over her head with Audacity. Flemeth tells her as much in "Long Way Home," and every other thing Flemeth says to companions in that scene is bang-on for each of them.

Flemeth never says that Merrill is in over her head, just to be careful and not be blinded. Those are very different things. Also, if you rival Merrill, it doesn't count as adoration, unless you consider utter lack of respect to be an important component of it.

Her precautions would have failed. Audacity wouldn't have possessed her at the idol. She would have sent Hawke home so she could work on the eluvian - because we never see her work on it while others are present - it would have worked, and the demon would have 'ported into the Alienage. If that's not true, then Merrill is a blameless Mary Sue character who never did a wrong thing ever, and I really don't think that was the intention with her.

People constantly misuse the term "Mary Sue," and it wouldn't apply to Merrill either way; she'd no more be one than Aveline or Varric. It makes no sense that the demon could have reprogrammed the Eluvian when sealed, and the only person we see say this at all is the demon, whom we see flawlessly imitate Marethari a bit later on.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 12 février 2013 - 02:47 .

[dragonflight288]

I always thought this meant that the demon would use the portal to escape the statue and physically manifest in Merrill's house. (Yeah, they're not supposed to be able to do that, but the Baroness does it in DAA, and we see desire demons running around all over the place.) She'd be its first victim not by possession, but by getting torn limb from limb.

The demon was bound to the statue. Merethari says this in the short story. Merrill spent seven years away from the demon and outside its range of influence. The short story made it clear that the demon could influence them on Sundermount, and it was stronger the closer they got to it.

Merethari herself, however, remained in the demon's ring of influence for seven years, and never once researched the eluvian because she was so scared of what it did when corrupted by the darkspawn that she wouldn't think it was anything else.

If anything, I think the demon mentioning that was a way to try and get Merrill to lower her guard.

EDIT:

I'm fairly sure the Eluvian was linked directly to the Black City
there. There was no indication anywhere in the Dead Trenches that there
was an Eluvian link, and while there are a lot of darkspawn there, the
taint isn't so thick that it suffuses the very air, or enough to taint
the Eluvian just by linking to it.

But the Magisters of the Tevinter Imperium used them frequently as long-rage communication devices, unable to utilize their full power, and they weren't tainted...or at the very least there are no reports of them being tainted.

We have two eluvians that we know of. Morrigan activated hers and no darkspawn were involved, and the taint didn't exist. Then there's the one that Mahariel and Tamlen found, which was tainted before they even got there, shortly before a blight.

I understand there's a strong theory that the eluvians lead to the black city, but according to Witch Hunt, the only thing we know for certain is that they lead to a place beyond the Fade, and it's a place Morrigan felt safe raising a child away from Flemeth.

Aside from that, there is nothing more than speculation.

I can see that it may be possible to lead to the black city, but I honestly don't know if that's true.

Modifié par dragonflight288, 12 février 2013 - 03:07 .

[Knight of Dane]

Corker wrote...
I always thought this meant that the demon would use the portal to escape the statue and physically manifest in Merrill's house. (Yeah, they're not supposed to be able to do that, but the Baroness does it in DAA, and we see desire demons running around all over the place.)  She'd be its first victim not by possession, but by getting torn limb from limb.

The Baroness is a Demon inside the fade, the fade is where demons draw their power. Audacity is a demon bound outside the fade, in a statue.
He's just as powerless as the demons Malcom Hawke sealed in the Grey Warden prison, they don't regain power until Hawke ctrl+alt+delete the barriers.

@Xil & Dragon:
I don't think it leads to the Black City, but that's mostly because I think it would be a too easy connection.

Modifié par Knight of Dane, 12 février 2013 - 03:31 .

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

ugh Merrill

[Corker]

[quote]Xilizhra wrote...

I'm fairly sure the Eluvian was linked directly to the Black City there.[/quote]

So Tamlen traveled to the Black City and then somehow got back to Thedas?

Duncan says that sometimes eluvians go squirelly and get tainted. He doesn't say how this happens.  But the taint links all things darkspawny together, and when an Archdemon is awake, they're the focal point.  Since Tamlen comes back, under the Archdemon's orders, I think it's more likely he remained on Thedas.
[/quote]

[quote]Xilizhra wrote...Flemeth never says that Merrill is in over her head, just to be careful and not be blinded.[/quote]

She says the path is always darkest when you have your eyes tight shut. If that doesn't imply that she's gravely miscalculated her path, I'm not sure what would.

[quote]Also, if you rival Merrill, it doesn't count as adoration, unless you consider utter lack of respect to be an important component of it.[/quote]

I'm talking about myself, not my Hawkes. It's hard to decide between Aveline, Isabela and Merrill, but I think she's my favorite companion. With her blind spots and mistakes.

[quote]Xilizhra wrote...
and the only person we see say this at all is the demon, whom we see flawlessly imitate Marethari a bit later on.[/quote]


Doesn't she say that at the same time that she says you'll have to kill her? Which is the truth, and the demon only tries to lie about it later?

[Corker]

Knight of Dane wrote...


The Baroness is a Demon inside the fade, the fade is where demons draw their power. Audacity is a demon bound outside the fade, in a statue.

And then the Baroness materializes outside the manorhouse in the real world Blackmarsh and you have to fight her.  And she doesn't apparently need a host body to possess to do so.  I'm using her as an example of a demon, manifesting outside the Fade without a host, which is what I think Audacity was planning.  Gate from his prison in the idol to the Alienage via the eluvian and then run amok.

The lore isn't very consistent.  Demons are supposed to need hosts, whether they are mostly in the Fade (most of them) or trapped outside it (Justice, Audacity).  Unless they're shades.  Or the Baroness, or Hybris, or Xebenkeck, all of which just pop out of nowhere for their boss fights, with nary a mage to posses.  So I got the codex telling me one thing, and more than one example of gameplay telling me another. 

I think characters can even comment on how strange it is that the Baroness can appear in the real world, and it's hand-waved that somehow the demon's long identification with the mortal woman is allowing it.  (Anyone else remember that? Am I smoking something?)  In which case, sure, I'll handwave that Audacity's long time in the physical world has similarly given him the ability to manifest without a host.