239 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

So Tamlen traveled to the Black City and then somehow got back to Thedas?

Well, he got to the Black City. There might be Eluvians linking back to Thedas from there.

Duncan says that sometimes eluvians go squirelly and get tainted. He doesn't say how this happens. But the taint links all things darkspawny together, and when an Archdemon is awake, they're the focal point. Since Tamlen comes back, under the Archdemon's orders, I think it's more likely he remained on Thedas.

Duncan also thinks they're of Tevinter origin. He clearly doesn't know that much.

She says the path is always darkest when you have your eyes tight shut. If that doesn't imply that she's gravely miscalculated her path, I'm not sure what would.

Saying that she already does, as opposed to warning her not to do so.

I'm talking about myself, not my Hawkes. It's hard to decide between Aveline, Isabela and Merrill, but I think she's my favorite companion. With her blind spots and mistakes.

Do you rival her?

Doesn't she say that at the same time that she says you'll have to kill her? Which is the truth, and the demon only tries to lie about it later?

They serve different purposes. The demon wants to destroy Merrill's hope now, but when that fails, tries to restore it to attack her again. Note that it did get Merrill's personality down, and that plan would have worked had Hawke not intervened.

[Reznore57]

I always thought the Baroness used to be a human at some point , no?
And she willingly got posessed to be sort of immortal...didn't she killed peasants to fuel her blood magic?

[Knight of Dane]

Corker wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...


The Baroness is a Demon inside the fade, the fade is where demons draw their power. Audacity is a demon bound outside the fade, in a statue.

And then the Baroness materializes outside the manorhouse in the real world Blackmarsh and you have to fight her.  And she doesn't apparently need a host body to possess to do so.  I'm using her as an example of a demon, manifesting outside the Fade without a host, which is what I think Audacity was planning.  Gate from his prison in the idol to the Alienage via the eluvian and then run amok.

The lore isn't very consistent.  Demons are supposed to need hosts, whether they are mostly in the Fade (most of them) or trapped outside it (Justice, Audacity).  Unless they're shades.  Or the Baroness, or Hybris, or Xebenkeck, all of which just pop out of nowhere for their boss fights, with nary a mage to posses.  So I got the codex telling me one thing, and more than one example of gameplay telling me another. 

I think characters can even comment on how strange it is that the Baroness can appear in the real world, and it's hand-waved that somehow the demon's long identification with the mortal woman is allowing it.  (Anyone else remember that? Am I smoking something?)  In which case, sure, I'll handwave that Audacity's long time in the physical world has similarly given him the ability to manifest without a host.

See, you know but refuse to understand.
~Esbern

Lol, anyway; The Baroness is in the fade, in the fade demons can have virtually limitless power. Add then that she uses blood magic from the First who is in the fade with his body, which augments her powers and there is the formula for a free demon.

If demons couldn't materialize outside the fade then what are all those Rage Demons we run into all the time? My guess is just that it takes, like, A LOT of power. Which Merrill also states herself, it would have to take a lot of power to free Audacity.

My guess is that Audacity was hoping Merrill would become desperate enough to use her blood magic near him to free himself and not actually the mirror.

But, as you said. The lore is twitchy, and I would also like to beleive that neither the Dalish nor the Andrastian 
mages 100% understands the fade and magic.

[Nicola_Hawke]

I agree with you StElmo, Merrill was a great character. Although she dabbled in deals with demons her personality lightened the story. I also liked how Isabela was like her big sister looking out for her aww! Not sure how she fit into a new story though, especially if Hawke romanced her becuase she goes away with him/her. It would be funny if your Hawke did kill her but she came back in DA3 anyway, just to ****** people off haha!

[ref]

It was extremely irritating to see how naive and stubborn she was. I didn't like her character at all, but that's just my opinion. Then again, I don't like anything about DA2.

[Yendor_Trawz]

Merrill's not coming back. BW actually want to sell some copies of DA3.

[NinjaDragonSword]

I dont mind her making a cameo appearance. The last thing I want to see is her being a party member.

[Kenshen]

Boost32 wrote...

yes she can die in DA2
and i hope she never return

Really?  I have tried but never have been able to kill her and yes I want too very badly.  I will say that my strong dislike for Merril has nothing to do with writing or VO, both of which I thought was well done, but with the character herself.  I had a friend tell me once that you can give her up to the elfs that meet you outside the cave after the keeper dies but I don't get that option.  So do I have to go full on templar supporter to kill her?  That would be a hard playthrough for me but It just might be worth it once.

[BouncyFrag]

aryon69 wrote...

Boost32 wrote...

yes she can die in DA2
and i hope she never return

Really?  I have tried but never have been able to kill her and yes I want too very badly.  I will say that my strong dislike for Merril has nothing to do with writing or VO, both of which I thought was well done, but with the character herself.  I had a friend tell me once that you can give her up to the elfs that meet you outside the cave after the keeper dies but I don't get that option.  So do I have to go full on templar supporter to kill her?  That would be a hard playthrough for me but It just might be worth it once.

Heres a vid:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQINllZMWcg

[LobselVith8]

hawkman96j wrote...

Yeah and if Merril had not consorted with the demon in the first place, there would be no issue. Therefore she is to blame.

If Marethari didn't release Audacity, endangering both her clan and her former First by becoming an abomination, there would be no issue.

And I'm not certain why anyone would trust Marethari's sudden proclamation that Audacity could have escaped his prison when that's not even the original reason Marethari opposed Merrill's research: the Keeper claimed that Merrill would bring back the taint, but that clearly isn't the case when Merrill spends close to a decade handling the shard and using it in her efforts to construct the Eluvian, while the elves in Witch Hunt where ghouls after bring exposed to the remaining shards of the Elven Ruins.

The most likely source of Marethari's claim would be Audacity, who wanted to escape the totem.

hawkman96j wrote...

She keeps saying "I can do this, I can control it!" And how many times have we heard blood mages say that before getting possessed/ slaugheterd in the dragon age universe?

You mean mage antagonists like Decimus, who thought Merrill was a templar? I don't think a plethora of caricatures who didn't make sense in the story are much of an argument against Merrill, who was one of the smartest and most proactive mages in Dragon Age II. She studied the lore on the Eluvian, extrapolated information from the shard, and build a new Eluvian with just a single shard she successfully cleansed of the taint (which is why she wasn't a ghoul, unlike the elves who found the remaining shards in the Elven Ruins during Witch Hunt).

hawkman96j wrote...

In my opinon, merril is a character who keeps her head in the clouds and doesn't think about what she does, which in turn affects others. Because she is so naive, others step in her path to protect her and they end up getting hurt. 

It's amazing you say that when Merrill took steps to protect people, while Marethari recklessly endangered everyone around her.

[Nashimura]

I am one of the few (I think) who did not really like Merril. Yea, i kicked 3 puppys on my way home today to...yea yea. Just nothing about her bar her voice acting did much for me, i skipped most of her quests on my replay of DA2.

Its not even that i dislike her, Alistair i hated....in a good way, loved the writing, loved the flaws....sent him to his death. Merril was more "Meh" to me.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Knight of Dane wrote...

Add then that she uses blood magic from the First who is in the fade with his body, which augments her powers and there is the formula for a free demon.

It probably helps quite a bit that the veil around the Blackmarsh is riddled with holes.

Were they actually in the Fade physically? Been so long I can't remember. I thought they were just dreaming, since the Mother somehow coming across a ritual that will send people bodily into the Fade--a ritual that the First can cast on his own without being a spellcaster--sort of flies in the face of the lore that going into the Fade physically is no simple task.

To put it lightly.

Anyway, from the dialogue I remember, it sounded like the Baroness already had enough power to cross over herself thanks to what she did to the entire village, but she just hadn't realised it until she did it. She didn't need the First or the Warden, but they were the catalyst for her trying to cross over because they were also trying to get back.

If demons couldn't materialize outside the fade then what are all those Rage Demons we run into all the time? My guess is just that it takes, like, A LOT of power.

They could have been summoned by blood mages, then been freed or escaped or slain their masters. That's what happened at Soldier's Peak, though in that instance they ripped the veil itself and opened a gate for demons to saunter on through.

That said, anywhere the veil is particularly weak can make it easier for demons to cross over. IIRC that's the basis for all the aggressive trees in Brecillian.

Which Merrill also states herself, it would have to take a lot of power to free Audacity.

Audacity's situation is different. He's not walking around the Fade, he's been deliberately trapped in a prison designed to cage him. It's the difference between opening a door and picking a compelx lock.

I agree with you and Corker that the lore is twitchy though.

[TEWR]

Corker wrote...

to "an underground city" with a great darkness in it (I assume Bownammar, where the Archdemon was lairing in the Dead Trenches).

My money's on Arlathan, which I believe rests underneath the permanently blighted Silent Plains.

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

 I thought they were just dreaming, since the Mother somehow coming across a ritual that will send people bodily into the Fade--a ritual that the First can cast on his own without being a spellcaster--sort of flies in the face of the lore that going into the Fade physically is no simple task.

Dreaming. The Baroness had cast a powerful blood magic spell that trapped the souls of everyone in the village in a facsimile version of the Blackmarsh in the Fade. Over time, the Baroness either became a Demon of Pride -- which would be weird -- or a Demon of Pride possessed her.

My guess is the latter, as IIRC there was a codex or an item that talked about how the Baroness would use a Pride Demon to help her.

Anyway, the bodies of everyone remained in the physical world. The Baroness' blood magic spell that used the First's essence as fuel sent everyone back to the physical world, with her going back to her probably seriously dead corpse -- and possibly rejuvenating it?

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 13 février 2013 - 12:23 .

[thats1evildude]

Corker wrote...

The lore isn't very consistent.  Demons are supposed to need hosts, whether they are mostly in the Fade (most of them) or trapped outside it (Justice, Audacity).  Unless they're shades.  Or the Baroness, or Hybris, or Xebenkeck, all of which just pop out of nowhere for their boss fights, with nary a mage to posses.  So I got the codex telling me one thing, and more than one example of gameplay telling me another.  

Well, the Baroness herself explains how she got here.

We also never see how Hybris or Xebenkeck came to the world. All indications are that both demons were very, very old, so it's possible that they possessed some poor bastard centuries before and have existed in the world since then.

I should also note that the lore itself states that shades are demons who have learned a way to manifest in the real world without needing a host. However, it's a bad solution, since they can't experience true life (the whole point of coming to the mortal world) and are left with a gnawing hunger they can't satisfy.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The Baroness' blood magic spell that used the First's essence as fuel sent everyone back to the physical world, with her going back to her probably seriously dead corpse -- and possibly rejuvenating it?

The dialogue with the Baroness suggests that she was not occupying a corpse or any other host, but had accumulated so much power by feeding off of the trapped villagers that she could manifest physically in the real world.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 13 février 2013 - 04:09 .

[Gamercat]

LobselVith8 wrote...

It's amazing you say that when Merrill took steps to protect people, while Marethari recklessly endangered everyone around her.

Option 1. Merril toys with the Eluvian, demon is released in the alienage, elves die. Option 2 Merril toys with the Eluvian, keeper is posessed, elves die. See where i'm going with this? I am sorry if I seem narrow minded but I simply don't see this as anyone elses fault but Merril's.

[Yendor_Trawz]

hawkman96j wrote...

Option 1. Merril toys with the Eluvian, demon is released in the alienage, elves die. Option 2 Merril toys with the Eluvian, keeper is posessed, elves die. See where i'm going with this? I am sorry if I seem narrow minded but I simply don't see this as anyone elses fault but Merril's.

Yep, Merril was all about Merril. She would have made a good enemy, not companion.

Consign her to the DA2 Dustbin of Bad Ideas, if it isn't full already.

[Knight of Dane]

hawkman96j wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It's amazing you say that when Merrill took steps to protect people, while Marethari recklessly endangered everyone around her.

Option 1. Merril toys with the Eluvian, demon is released in the alienage, elves die. Option 2 Merril toys with the Eluvian, keeper is posessed, elves die. See where i'm going with this? I am sorry if I seem narrow minded but I simply don't see this as anyone elses fault but Merril's.

There's not really anything to back the presumption behind your option 1 up. It is still based on the words of a demon alone.

[Xilizhra]

hawkman96j wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It's amazing you say that when Merrill took steps to protect people, while Marethari recklessly endangered everyone around her.

Option 1. Merril toys with the Eluvian, demon is released in the alienage, elves die. Option 2 Merril toys with the Eluvian, keeper is posessed, elves die. See where i'm going with this? I am sorry if I seem narrow minded but I simply don't see this as anyone elses fault but Merril's.

Except the first one was never going to happen, and the second was completely Marethari's fault.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Corker wrote...

to "an underground city" with a great darkness in it (I assume Bownammar, where the Archdemon was lairing in the Dead Trenches).

My money's on Arlathan, which I believe rests underneath the permanently blighted Silent Plains.

I have to agree with Corker on this one. Bownammar makes sense in context considering that's where the PC first sees the archdemon in the flesh. There's no basis for it being in Arlathan, which as far as we know has never even been touched by darkspawn.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Dreaming.

Thanks for confirming that. I was fairly sure I remembered the party 'waking up' when you get out.

The Baroness had cast a powerful blood magic spell that trapped the
souls of everyone in the village in a facsimile version of the
Blackmarsh in the Fade. Over time, the Baroness either became a Demon of Pride -- which would be weird -- or a Demon of Pride possessed her.

My guess is the latter, as IIRC there was a codex or an item that talked about how the Baroness would use a Pride Demon to help her.

I agree. The Baroness was definitely a person before becoming possessed, same as Uldred.

Anyway, the bodies of everyone remained in the physical world. The Baroness' blood magic spell that used the First's essence as fuel sent everyone back to the physical world, with her going back to her probably seriously dead corpse -- and possibly rejuvenating it?

Hm, I seriously doubt any sort of casual rejuvenation, or why wouldn't any other demon that possesses a corpse do the same thing?

But I guess. Either there was some weird unexplained mojo going on that allowed the demon to assume the form of the Baroness in her youth (as I recall, she did a lot of blood sacrifices to maintain her looks?), or the devs didn't really care about lore and wanted to simply show the Baroness had returned without having to deal with 'Who the hell are you?' dialogue.

And I'm leaning towards the latter there.

[Knight of Dane]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Corker wrote...

to "an underground city" with a great darkness in it (I assume Bownammar, where the Archdemon was lairing in the Dead Trenches).

My money's on Arlathan, which I believe rests underneath the permanently blighted Silent Plains.

I have to agree with Corker on this one. Bownammar makes sense in context considering that's where the PC first sees the archdemon in the flesh. There's no basis for it being in Arlathan, which as far as we know has never even been touched by darkspawn.

But... That's the problem. The Eluvian's has nothing to do with Darkspawn of Origin, they are elven portals. An eluvian links to another eluvian.
When I was in Bownammar with my Warden there wasn't any Eluvians.
It would make sense that the old Elven capital had an eluvian or two.

[TEWR]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

I have to agree with Corker on this one. Bownammar makes sense in context considering that's where the PC first sees the archdemon in the flesh. There's no basis for it being in Arlathan, which as far as we know has never even been touched by darkspawn.

But it makes sense. Arlathan was reputedly sunk underground by the Magisters of Tevinter and the Eluvians are Elven objects. Why would Bownammar -- a city constructed by Caridin -- have an Elven artifact? Eluvians link to other Eluvians, per Finn's Scrying ritual.

More importantly, by the idea that Arlathan rests underground now it would have assuredly had Darkspawn pouring through it. They dwell in the deepest recesses of Thedas.

From what I wrote on another thread:

TEWR wrote...

I have a theory on where Arlathan lies. My guess is it that Arlathan lay underneath the Silent Plains, a permanently tainted area where the first Archdemon was slain -- whether it was Dumat or not is in contention, given Legacy's Altar of Dumat quest.

We know that it was reputedly sunk underground by the Magisters. If so, then there's nothing keeping the Darkspawn from overrunning the place and tainting it -- more so if they originally rested in an area that is now permanently Blight-ridden.

I also posit that the Eluvian in the Dalish Elf origin was linked to Arlathan -- Tamlen does say he sees an underground city -- and that Tamlen's touching it activated the portal aspect for some reason, causing Darkspawn to begin using it to pour into Ferelden from there. I'd argue that this is supported by the fact that you're only fighting Genlocks the entire time, but then again they are the most common in the horde so meh.

Duncan and others believe the Darkspawn were attracted to it from the Brecilian Forest. But I don't buy that. I think they were using it. If so, then Duncan's smashing of it was, at the time, a good thing. But the danger has passed now and Merrill has fixed the problems the Eluvian fragment had.

 

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 13 février 2013 - 03:00 .

[New Display Name]

Hopefully, they won't pull another Anders with Merrill.
I don't care that much, though, since I tend to play and enjoy Bioware games as separate entries.

[BlueMagitek]

Of course, the most simple explanation is that it is probably one of those dwarvern thaigs that took in elven refugees from Tevinter and were destroyed by other dwarves for it.

[Nefla]

I hated Merril as a character. I don't understand why she wasn't optional like Fenris or Isabella. It's not like she was connected to the plot in any way like your sibling, Anders, Varric, or Aveline were. Even if you're mean to her the whole trip to Kirkwall and tell her to **** off and that you're not going to be her friend, she still shows up everywhere including your house. For someone so pants-on-head retarded that they don't know what a trick is, have to find their way around using string, thinks being mugged is a greeting, etc...she is incredibly arrogant. She thinks she knows everything and that she knows best. She randomly decides that fixing an item known to be cursed, corrupted, and had killed at least one person is the way her people will somehow regain their culture...even though without another working eluvian out there to connect to it would be pointless. Not to mention even if you had 2, then what? She only ever tries consorting with demons and using blood magic, she never once considers researching it like the warden did in Witch Hunt or finding elven ruins to explore and unearth and learn about her people's history or culture or language. She just sits there all day cutting herself and consorting with demons, and of course never makes any progress and then she gets frustrated and whines at you to do more demony things with her. She's all for sacrificing an innocent kid to a demon for no reason, blames everyone else for her failures, she's just so stupid and annoying. I wish we'd had a chance to murder-knife her because killing her in battle wasn't satisfying.