135 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

CSRB wrote...

Ever heard of the word 'concise'?

Sure. And?

[Eckswhyzed]

Excellent writing as usual Dean.

I'm still not a fan of the dark energy ending, but I think that's got more to do with me and my enjoyment of the original/EC endings

[CSRB]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

CSRB wrote...

Ever heard of the word 'concise'?

Sure. And?

Clearly not.

[DeinonSlayer]

CSRB wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

CSRB wrote...

Ever heard of the word 'concise'?

Sure. And?

Clearly not.

Some people actually appreciate detail, abbreviated-name person.

[Dean_the_Young]

CSRB wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

CSRB wrote...

Ever heard of the word 'concise'?

Sure. And?

Clearly not.

Clearly not what?

If I wanted to post a very short summary of the ideas and thoughts in my head, I'd post a very short summary. The problem with very short summaries, however, is that they tend to generalize and gloss over details. The really short summary, after all, was: 

An ME3 remake/recast in which Cerberus is allied to the Crucible effort, while still a frequent antagonist on missions.

Which, while concise, doesn't really cover the wide scope of points and underpinning thoughts behind the rewrite. It says 'what', but not 'how' or 'why'.

Since organizing and presenting those details was my goal, and not simply summarizing, 'concise' in the sense you've implied, ie brief, was never the goal. Being comprehensive of all the details was.

So, again: clearly not what?

[xariadne]

This post is fascinating. One of the things I've always lamented is the lack of politics in the ME universe; they get handwaved or glossed over far too easily. You took a lot of ideas/wishes in my own head and expanded them in some really incredible ways, especially the Omega arc (which could, and should, have been so much more). I've always thought Cerberus-as-frenemies would be a much better approach (and cleverer on the part of their puppetmasters).

I have to echo one of the constructive critiques you already received, however. Cerberus as an indoctrinated (albeit stupid) part of the Reaper forces is something I could accept, even if the execution wasn't to my taste. Cerberus used as you use it, however, leaves the actual threat, the Reapers, sort of hanging out on the edge of the plot. And in the end, the story is about the war with the Reapers. You've got such excellent ideas for Cerberus. Reemphasizing the relentless horror and brutality of the Reapers in would drive the complexity (and humanity) of Cerberus home.

I might also consider, in lieu of TIM getting Spectre status, having Cerberus gain an embassy on the Citadel, and deputize someone like Jacob or Miranda (probably Jacob) to act as Spectre. Which is ironic given my previous suggestion of removing Cerberus's some story role to bring back more Reapers, but I don't think TIM would be satisfied with Spectre status. Ultimately they're still supposed to do the Council's bidding, whereas an embassy represents a commitment of resources, a sort of digging in deeper for the Council.

[CynicalShep]

Very good read, you clearly know how to write a good story.

That being said, in spite of being somewhat of a Cerberus supporter I will agree with some other posters - we need more Reapers/Reaper forces. Most of your ideas could still be implemented but I'd like to have the Reapers in the driving seat.

[78stonewobble]

Hmm I didn't have the time to go through all of it right now but I have a somewhat relevant lore question.

Did humanity, specifically the alliance, not have colonies of the size of tens of millions to hundreds of millions of inhabitants?

I cannot remember what the ingame information says on all the planets.

But surely large colonies like that could potentially supply the alliance with enough manpower to field amies of millions.

IF they exist and weren't under attack themselves from reapers... or cerberus.

Modifié par 78stonewobble, 13 février 2013 - 11:03 .

[Dean_the_Young]

78stonewobble wrote...

Hmm I didn't have the time to go through all of it right now but I have a somewhat relevant lore question.

Did humanity, specifically the alliance, not have colonies of the size of tens of millions to hundreds of millions of inhabitants?

I cannot remember what the ingame information says on all the planets.

Nope. The largest Human colonies are in the very low millions, and most are in the dozens-of-thousands category.

But surely large colonies like that could potentially supply the alliance with enough manpower to field amies of millions.

IF they exist and weren't under attack themselves from reapers... or cerberus.

It doesn't change the key problem of turning civilians into an effective fighting force: time and experience. Putting a gun in someone's hand, and them being good with it, are two different things, and the later only comes with time (training) and experience (which tends to see the weakest die off quick).

Given that the war ends in a matter of months, most conventionally-trained civilian recruits would just start being in their stride by the end of the war. Cerberus implant soldiers, however, can go from zero to top-tier in a much, much shorter time.

[Steelcan]

This is fantastic! I'd have loved this to be in the game.

[potentialfood]

Awesome. Great read.

Definitely clears up a few things in the canon along the way - namely the Cerberus soldier. I always found it funny how Petrovsky had so much concern for his men when they appeared to be nothing more than mindless husks. I am far more satisfied with your take on them: (even if they were being controlled in the end) I enjoyed the scenes that gave the soldiers more character, where they interacted with civilians and the alliance. This kind of reminded me of the clones in SWepIII and their relationship with the jedi before they turned.

The alliance between the Dalatrass and Cerberus better explained why they were on Sur'Kesh as well.

[Dean_the_Young]

mgcasa wrote...

Awesome. Great read.

Definitely clears up a few things in the canon along the way - namely the Cerberus soldier. I always found it funny how Petrovsky had so much concern for his men when they appeared to be nothing more than mindless husks. I am far more satisfied with your take on them: (even if they were being controlled in the end) I enjoyed the scenes that gave the soldiers more character, where they interacted with civilians and the alliance. This kind of reminded me of the clones in SWepIII and their relationship with the jedi before they turned.

The alliance between the Dalatrass and Cerberus better explained why they were on Sur'Kesh as well.

I can't say the Clones of Star Wars were an inspiration (the concept of the conditioned army far predates Star Wars), but they are a good example of what I thought should have been a point of the Cerberus troopers: more than husks but less than human, with opinions and views but subordinated to their controlers.

The thing is, the Troopers of canon already have the potential to be this: we see them express emotions (fear of Shepard, anger), question why they have to do the things the imoral things they do (Citadel coup), express attachment to eachother (the Varen-victim on Sur'kesh), and Omega even tells us they get paid so they logically have to spend it somehow.

They're just never developed, which I felt was the second biggest weakness of the Omega DLC in particular. (First one being the Adjuctant plotline.)

[Getorex]

This would certainly have given the entire game series a lot more replayability because ME3 would be very replayable.

Lost opportunity for Bioware...and us.

[Getorex]

Eckswhyzed wrote...

Excellent writing as usual Dean.

I'm still not a fan of the dark energy ending, but I think that's got more to do with me and my enjoyment of the original/EC endings

More power to you and the on other guy in your corner!  The rest of us want...better (virtually anything fits the bill) and this story idea is MUCH better. 

[Xilizhra]

Quite interesting, although... I dislike the forced opposition between Nyreen and Aria. I believe you should have a chance to reconcile them, as you can the geth and quarians.

Also, I prefer the ending choices we got, to an extent. And would much rather see Cerberus be extinguished, letting us raid their base and putting an end to that group forever.

[Spartas Husky]

Marauder Shields!!!

[silverexile17s]

Holy...... Hell.

Dean.... I know that you and I have disagreed on many things before ...... but this was beautiful. Spectalular. Brilliant. Amazing. Fantastic.

THIS is how Cerberus should have been handled - a third party in the shadows, rather then an out-in-the-open antoginist. Hell, even without the Cerberus plots, you got a better idea of how Omega's final choice between Aria and Nyreen should have been. You should have been a writer for this game!

[silverexile17s]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

78stonewobble wrote...

Hmm I didn't have the time to go through all of it right now but I have a somewhat relevant lore question.

Did humanity, specifically the alliance, not have colonies of the size of tens of millions to hundreds of millions of inhabitants?

I cannot remember what the ingame information says on all the planets.

Nope. The largest Human colonies are in the very low millions, and most are in the dozens-of-thousands category.

But surely large colonies like that could potentially supply the alliance with enough manpower to field amies of millions.

IF they exist and weren't under attack themselves from reapers... or cerberus.

It doesn't change the key problem of turning civilians into an effective fighting force: time and experience. Putting a gun in someone's hand, and them being good with it, are two different things, and the later only comes with time (training) and experience (which tends to see the weakest die off quick).

Given that the war ends in a matter of months, most conventionally-trained civilian recruits would just start being in their stride by the end of the war. Cerberus implant soldiers, however, can go from zero to top-tier in a much, much shorter time.

Yeah - I think Hackett mentioned something about that too.
"You can pay a man to charge the enemy and take the hill. But you can't pay him to believe."
Something along those lines.

[Linkenski]

I don't think even 1/10th of forum members are gonna read this. I'm very tempted but I don't bother going through all that. It would've been better to just hear a basic concept.

[KaiserShep]

That's just another way of saying tl;dr. The OP pretty much states why he didn't just use a basic summary, which would not have been better, again, for reasons he states. 

Modifié par KaiserShep, 24 septembre 2013 - 03:47 .

[Dean_the_Young]

The department of redundant language redundantly strikes again!

But yeah. Short summary was the thread title. And intro.

[Arcian]

You made Cerberus much less stupid, I'll give you that, but now they've almost completely taken over the plot of the game. My first and foremost issue with Cerberus in ME3 is that they were too involved in the main plot of the game. The problem of their unrealistic resources, evulz and stupidity are second to this. Your concept removes the second problem but exacerbates the first by several factors.

I realize, post-ME2, that there was a group of fans who actually liked Cerberus and would like to see them better utilized in the sequel, but this is taking it too far. A consequence of the concept is that the plot becomes even MORE human-centric when it should be going in the exact opposite direction and focus on the aliens.

But since I rather like these ideas, I'd rather see the Shadow Broker in their place. Primarily because he (the position, not the person) has possibly been around since the Citadel was first discovered and would realistically have the resources that Cerberus was stated to have in ME3 (which for them was unrealistic owing to their relatively short operational period). Of course, this would break the LotSB DLC, but it was already broken by having Cerberus effortlessly uncover the Broker's location when no one else had managed to do so in thousands of years, and then having Liara T'Soni, the inarguably least qualified person in the galaxy aside from maybe Tali, replacing him effortlessly as the leader of the Shadow Broker network.

Overall, great job and kudos on the effort you put into it. Still, Cerberus has been a cancer in the franchise that should have been removed a long time ago.

Modifié par Arcian, 26 septembre 2013 - 08:54 .

[The Night Mammoth]

Arcian wrote...
Of course, this would break the LotSB DLC, but it was already broken by having Cerberus effortlessly uncover the Broker's location when no one else had managed to do so in thousands of years, and then having Liara T'Soni, the inarguably least qualified person in the galaxy aside from maybe Tali, replacing him effortlessly as the leader of the Shadow Broker network.

Here's me thinking Liara spent the last few years learning to do the same job the Broker did. 

[Arcian]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Arcian wrote...
Of course, this would break the LotSB DLC, but it was already broken by having Cerberus effortlessly uncover the Broker's location when no one else had managed to do so in thousands of years, and then having Liara T'Soni, the inarguably least qualified person in the galaxy aside from maybe Tali, replacing him effortlessly as the leader of the Shadow Broker network.

Here's me thinking Liara spent the last few years learning to do the same job the Broker did. 

You mean her two years vs the Broker's six decades? And this not taking into account that yahg are naturally much smarter and more perceptive than asari?

[The Night Mammoth]

Arcian wrote...

You mean her two years vs the Broker's six decades?

Her two years give her the experience and skills to try and take on the job. The yahg didn't have six decades of experience when he started. I'm guessing it had to learn too. 

And this not taking into account that yahg are naturally much smarter and more perceptive than asari?

You're assuming I think Liara is the perfect Shadow Broker or even the equal of the yahg.

Fact is, she's the best person out of any character we ever meet besides the Broker himself and perhaps the Illusive Man, because she spent two years as an information broker.

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 26 septembre 2013 - 09:39 .