135 réponses à ce sujet

[Steelcan]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

1. Liara couldn't do something morally dubious to save her soul.

Like willingly giving someone's corpse to a group of terrorists or becoming an information broker on a planet described as just as corrupt as Omega?

2. Mordin is also an STG agent who analyzed threats to the Salarian Union (see SB dossiers). He sees the big pictrure very clearly, and is also not above morally dubious action.

I'm still not seeing why this makes him a better candidate than Liara.

1.  Neither of those are morally ambiguous, at all.

2.  You don't see why talents that would be incredibly useful to an information broker and that he displays apititude for would put him over someone with really no special talents?

[The Night Mammoth]

Steelcan wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

1. Liara couldn't do something morally dubious to save her soul.

Like willingly giving someone's corpse to a group of terrorists or becoming an information broker on a planet described as just as corrupt as Omega?

2. Mordin is also an STG agent who analyzed threats to the Salarian Union (see SB dossiers). He sees the big pictrure very clearly, and is also not above morally dubious action.

I'm still not seeing why this makes him a better candidate than Liara.

1.  Neither of those are morally ambiguous, at all.

Aiding and abetting known terrorists by giving them someone's corpse to be part of a science experiment that they have no choice over is not morally ambiguous? Becoming an information broker, a profession based on gathering people's secrets and selling them to the highest bidder, and using agents to manipulate people to your own ends, possibly with threats and bribes, isn't morally ambiguous? 

2.  You don't see why talents that would be incredibly useful to an information broker and that he displays apititude for would put him over someone with really no special talents?

Mordin might have talents than might be useful to an information broker. I don't see why that would make him a better Shadow Broker than Liara, who definitely does has very useful talents as an information broker, and actual direct experience being one. 

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 26 septembre 2013 - 11:08 .

[Steelcan]

1. Not really. She had no choice but to give it to Cerberus, and she took the job out for revenge, and its clear by LotSB that it is taking a toll on her. but you never know with Liara, her personality is so inconsistent..

3. Potentially useful? Night Mammoth pls.

And Liara's one and only unique talent is being able to stalk someone who has turned her down several times. Her biotic abilities are not unique, nor is she particularly intelligent.

[Arcian]

KaiserShep wrote...

Being willing to bomb an entire building just to kill one person doesn't seem like a very sensible plan. It's made even less sensible as it failed miserably.

Like Cerberus in ME3, the Broker was written to be as stupid as Super MAC's plot required him to be.

[KaiserShep]

When is there an opportunity to turn her down several times? In what way is she not intelligent?

[David7204]

I'm curious how you think Walters is at fault for anything and everything you don't like in LotSB considering he wasn't the writer. Magic, perhaps?

Is it not evident to anyone with the slightest grasp of logic how moronic these complaints are?

Modifié par David7204, 26 septembre 2013 - 11:16 .

[The Night Mammoth]

Steelcan wrote...

1. Not really. She had no choice but to give it to Cerberus,

She could have not helped them, taken Shepard's corpse and run, buried it, destroyed it, or hidden it. She chose to go to Cerberus.

and she took the job out for revenge,

Irrelevant.

and its clear by LotSB that it is taking a toll on her.

Maybe, but I don't think so. She volunteers to be the Shadow broker partly because it something she actually wants for herself, and it's not like Miranda doesn't have similar doubts; she quits Cerberus after all. 

And Liara's one and only unique talent is being able to stalk someone who has turned her down several times. Her biotic abilities are not unique, nor is she particularly intelligent.

Meh, people who think Liara stalks them are just enveloped in a paranoid power fantasy where every character should do exactly as they want and not have personalities of their own.

Not sure why her biotics matter, or why someone would think she's not particularly intelligent, considering she has a doctorate.

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 26 septembre 2013 - 11:30 .

[wolfhowwl]

Tis a shame we couldn't side with Tela Vasir over Liara.

[Steelcan]

KaiserShep wrote...

When is there an opportunity to turn her down several times? In what way is she not intelligent?

ME1, bugged "turn down" option causes romance to progress, ME2 in LotSB you can say its over, then twice more in ME3.

She is either incompetent or an idiot, I'm going with idiot right now.

[Steelcan]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

1. Not really. She had no choice but to give it to Cerberus,

She could have not helped them, taken Shepard's corpse and run, buried it, destroyed it, or hidden it. She chose to go to Cerberus.

and she took the job out for revenge,

Irrelevant.

and its clear by LotSB that it is taking a toll on her.

Maybe, but I don't think so. She volunteers to be the Shadow broker partly because it something she actually wants for herself, and it's not like Miranda doesn't have similar doubts; she quits Cerberus after all. 

And Liara's one and only unique talent is being able to stalk someone who has turned her down several times. Her biotic abilities are not unique, nor is she particularly intelligent.

Meh, people who think Liara stalks them are just enveloped in a paranoid power fantasy where every character should do exactly as they want and not have personalities of their own.

Not sure why her biotics matter as an information broker, or why someone would think she's not particularly intelligent, considering she has a doctorate.

1.  As I recall she was working with them for it, and she DID pry off a slab of Shepard's armor, clean it, and put it on display....

2.  Not really, I just don't appreciate people showing up at my doorstep unannounced, or taking bits of me and putting them on display, little things like that

[Jorji Costava]

wolfhowwl wrote...

Tis a shame we couldn't side with Tela Vasir over Liara.

I actually think Tela Vasir may be the best antagonist the series has had.

Regarding the original post, I haven't had a chance to read it all (the OP certainly did provide fair warning about the length), but it looks very good so far. Maybe I'll have some more thoughts later.

[KaiserShep]

Steelcan wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

When is there an opportunity to turn her down several times? In what way is she not intelligent?

ME1, bugged "turn down" option causes romance to progress, ME2 in LotSB you can say its over, then twice more in ME3.

She is either incompetent or an idiot, I'm going with idiot right now.

Is this bug apparent on all platforms? I haven't encountered this on my PS3 version. I gathered that this was your opinion, but that didn't answer my question.

[The Night Mammoth]

Steelcan wrote...

1.  As I recall she was working with them for it,

That doesn't change the fact that working with Cerberus, and giving them Shepard's corpse, were her choices. She had alternatives.

and and she DID pry off a slab of Shepard's armor, clean it, and put it on display....

What does that have to do with her moral ambiguity?

2.  Not really, I just don't appreciate people showing up at my doorstep unannounced,

What, once, when you live within thirty seconds travel, know each other, and work closely together? 

or taking bits of me and putting them on display, little things like that

Why do you care? You've already said you don't think there was anything morally questionable about what she did. It's just a piece of armor. What it represents to her shouldn't matter to you.

Also, why are you still letting a bug, something that's not supposed to happen, inform your opinion of a character?Steely...... pls. 

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 26 septembre 2013 - 11:40 .

[Steelcan]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

1.  As I recall she was working with them for it,

That doesn't change the fact that working with Cerberus, and giving them Shepard's corpse, were her choices. She had alternatives.

and and she DID pry off a slab of Shepard's armor, clean it, and put it on display....

What does that have to do with her moral ambiguity?

2.  Not really, I just don't appreciate people showing up at my doorstep unannounced,

What, once, when you live within thirty seconds travel, know each other, and work closely together? 

or taking bits of me and putting them on display, little things like that

Why do you care? You've already said you don't think there was anything morally questionable about what she did to retrieve this armor. 

1.  Her choice, when she was told to do it......

2.  More than once, I didn't ask her to come up, and there is no reason for a strictly professional relationship to go there, but she is hellbent on getting Shepard I suppose.

[Steelcan]

KaiserShep wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

When is there an opportunity to turn her down several times? In what way is she not intelligent?

ME1, bugged "turn down" option causes romance to progress, ME2 in LotSB you can say its over, then twice more in ME3.

She is either incompetent or an idiot, I'm going with idiot right now.

Is this bug apparent on all platforms? I haven't encountered this on my PS3 version. I gathered that this was your opinion, but that didn't answer my question.

Not sure if its on all, but its definitely on Xbox.

If the SB is as remotely connected as we are lead to believe she should be up to date on the major events of the galaxy, something like Sanctuary would be of interest you would think.  So she either didn't care to investigate, idiot, or she couldn't for some reason(and the SB has infiltrated Cerberus before), incompetent.

[KaiserShep]

Cerberus successfully concealing Sanctuary's inner workings does not automatically make her an idiot or incompetent. This is obviously going nowhere fast.

[The Night Mammoth]

Steelcan wrote...

1.  Her choice, when she was told to do it......

So? Cerberus had no power or authority over her, she chose to do the things she did.

2.  More than once, I didn't ask her to come up, and there is no reason for a strictly professional relationship to go there, but she is hellbent on getting Shepard I suppose.

If you renegade Liara in ME3, she doesn't come up to your cabin past the first time. 

Regardless, how does going up to Shepard's cabin to ask how they are twice, translate to her being an obsessive stalker who's 'hellbent' on 'getting'Shepard? It doesn't, and so this where the paranoid power fantasy becomes apparent. 

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 26 septembre 2013 - 11:49 .

[Steelcan]

KaiserShep wrote...

Cerberus successfully concealing Sanctuary's inner workings does not automatically make her an idiot or incompetent. This is obviously going nowhere fast.

Something so large and so prominent you'd think would be of interest to the Shadow Broker.

[Steelcan]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

1.  Her choice, when she was told to do it......

So? She had the opportunity to refuse, to do whatever she wanted with Shepard's corpse, but chose not to. Cerberus had no authority over her. 

2.  More than once, I didn't ask her to come up, and there is no reason for a strictly professional relationship to go there, but she is hellbent on getting Shepard I suppose.

If you renegade Liara in ME3, she doesn't come up to your cabin past the first time. 

Regardless, how does going up to Shepard's cabin to ask how they are twice, translate to her being an obsessive stalker who's 'hellbent' on 'getting'Shepard? This is where the paranoid power fantasy becomes apparent. 

1.  Right.  because Cerberus would have so many qualms about offing her to get Shepard's body....

2.  I can say that this is affirmatively false.  I have played through the game enough times to have noticed that.  And I do not recall a different between my paragon and reneagde playthroughs.  She comes up before Palaven, and after Tuchunka.

[KaiserShep]

Cerberus did try to off her, and they failed, multiple times. 

Modifié par KaiserShep, 26 septembre 2013 - 11:59 .

[Steelcan]

KaiserShep wrote...

Cerberus did try to off her, and they failed.

If you are talking about Mars that doesn't count.

[KaiserShep]

No, I'm not talking about Mars. Cerberus tried to kill her in one of the comics, and again when they assaulted the SB ship.

[Steelcan]

KaiserShep wrote...

No, I'm not talking about Mars. Cerberus tried to kill her in one of the comics, and again when they assaulted the SB ship.

Oh THAT comic.

Its beyond the scope of what we are talking about, but whatever.

What about it?  Apples and oranges really.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

I'm curious how you think Walters is at fault for anything and everything you don't like in LotSB considering he wasn't the writer. Magic, perhaps?

Is it not evident to anyone with the slightest grasp of logic how moronic these complaints are?

Maybe to your logic.

Which everybody else thinks is moronic.

Once more, you resort to ad hominem attacks.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 27 septembre 2013 - 12:11 .

[The Night Mammoth]

Steelcan wrote...

1.  Right.  because Cerberus would have so many qualms about offing her to get Shepard's body....

I don't Liara would care about threats to her person. She just put herself in mortal danger several times.

2.  I can say that this is affirmatively false.  I have played through the game enough times to have noticed that.  And I do not recall a different between my paragon and reneagde playthroughs.  She comes up before Palaven, and after Tuchunka.

If you say so. 

Still not sure how two visits to Shepard's cabin totalling maybe a little over two minutes of screen time means she's a rabid stalker.