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Xbox 360: Armour and Arms request for BIOWARE


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#1
Widar Thule

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First let me say that I congratulate BIOWARE on producing DA:O. It is a great RPG all-round in almost every way and one that I generally can only speak of in terms of appreciation and enjoyment. I hope that the DA:O sells well for BIOWARE so that further instalments and DLC can be expected. Since I play DA:O on the Xbox 360 however, it is impossible to add any items to the game myself. So therefore the only thing left is to direct a request via this forum to BIOWARE concerning certain Armour and Arms items.

I fully realize that the chance of such a request being granted is zero %, but maybe in future DLC's who knows what might become possible. So therefore I post the request nevertheless.

The “massive type” armour which I would like to see added to DA:O is the so-called late-era Gothic armour. Of all the beautiful armour produced in Europe over a 600-year period the gothic armour truly stands out for its outlandish and exceptional style, elegance and grace. The unique style of the gothic armour would, in my opinion, be a fine choice for a new “massive armour type” to be used exclusively by the Grey Warden Order in DA:O.
 
Although gothic full body armour might appear heavy and cumbersome, it actually normally weighed less than 20 kilograms (40 pounds) and the weight and armour plates were well distributed over the body to allow for excellent and fluent movement in combat. Modern day tests by re-enactors have confirmed this and even revealed that a knight in full body armour on foot could run fast enough to catch a foot archer on the run and that it even was even possible to swim in a full suit of body armour. In like manner, the two-handed battle sword (long sword) usually only weighed about 1,5 kilograms (3 pounds) or 2,3 kilograms (4,6 pounds) at most and was well balanced and therefore good to handle by an average strength person. In comparison, a modern day 21st century combat soldier carries well more than 20 kilograms (40 pounds) of equipment and the average modern day assault rifle weighs around 3 kilograms (6 pounds).
 
Only several complete examples of gothic armour still exist nowadays. The gothic armour which I request to include in DA:O is this late-era gothic armour of the Archduke Sigmund of Tirol (1427-96), which is arguably the finest remaining almost complete gothic armour , it was made by the famous armourer Lorenz Helmschmied around 1480 and is on display in the KHM in Vienna:

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Note in this back image that the back part of the neck plate, called bevor, of Archduke Sigmund’s gothic armour has been lost to this day.

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The armoured shoes, called sabatons, of Archduke Sigmund’s gothic armour. The long points were removed when not on horseback.

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Note again the lost back part of the neck plate (bevor).

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The image below gives a good side view of the typical and unique gothic armour helmet, called sallet, of Archduke Sigmund’s gothic armour. Note that the neckpiece armour, called bevor, displayed in this black and white image reveals a museum error, since it does not belong to Archduke Sigmund’s gothic armour but to Emperor Maximillian’s gothic armour. Also visible is the right shoulder gardbrace which was an extra armour plate attached to the shoulder pauldron. Unfortunately the left shoulder gardbrace of Archduke Sigmund’s gothic armour is missing to this day. The gardbraces of most medieval armour have regular size gardbraces fairly comparable to the one found on Archduke Sigmund’s gothic armour, which is quite contrary to the “massive type” armour featured in DA:O, which has absolutely huge gardbraces on the shoulders which almost dwarf the characters head in DA:O. These huge gardbraces typical of DA:O “massive type” armour are really not found in real life medieval combat armour, since they would be unpractical, too heavy and cumbersome. The main and leading centres for superior first class armour production in medieval Europe were the workshops of the master armourers in southern Germany and northern Italy and these armourers avoided making huge and heavy gardbraces for combat armour for obvious reasons.

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Below an image with explanation of the names of the various parts that make up Archduke Sigmund’s gothic armour. Note that Archduke Sigmund’s gothic armour only has one original pauldron gardbrace on the right shoulder, the original left shoulder pauldron gardbrace is unfortunately lost as are the original besagews (floating disks) that optionally further covered the armpits.

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Note that the peculiar long pointed sabatons (armoured shoes) of Archduke Sigmund’s gothic armour were only used when on horseback. When fighting on foot the long points could be removed and then the short sabaton points of Archduke Sigmund’s gothic armour would have looked something like this, which is what I request to be used instead of the long pointed horseback sabaton ones:

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The armpits of Archduke Sigmund’s gothic armour were optionally further covered by circular armour plates, so-called besagews (floating discs), which protected this area against stabbing attacks. An impression of what Archduke Sigmund’s gothic armour would have looked like with besagews is visible in the black and white image below. The centre gothic armour in the image below at first glance looks like Archduke Sigmund’s gothic armour, but detailed study reveals that it actually is the Emperor Maximillian’s gothic armour. Master armourer Lorenz Helmschmied made this gothic armour for Emperor Maximillian, which accounts for the overall similar appearance with Archduke Sigmund’s gothic armour. Emperor Maximillian’s gothic armour (center armour) seems to be fully complete except for the two missing pauldron gardbraces on the shoulders:

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This front image of Emperor Maximillian’s gothic armour clearly shows the design detail difference between Emperor Maximillian’s gothic armour and Archduke Sigmund’s gothic armour which has finer decorations. Note that Emperor's Maximillian's gothic armour is also missing the back plate of its neck armour (bevor).

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Again this black and white back image of Emperor Maximillian’s gothic armour also clearly shows the design detail difference between Emperor Maximillian’s gothic armour and Archduke Sigmund’s gothic armour which has finer decorations. The image also gives an excellent view of rearward design of the typical gothic armour helmet, called sallet, which offered additional neck protection. Note that Emperor's Maximillian's gothic armour is also missing the back plate of its neck armour (bevor).

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The Arms that I would like to see added to DA:O are a late-era variant of the two-handed battle sword (long sword), the so-called Flammberger (flame bladed sword). These two-handed battle swords (long swords) were wielded by specially trained and officially certified elite swordsman who received double the normal pay for their services. Although these two-handed battle swords (long swords) were quite large, they were nevertheless quite light for their length, most weighing between 1,5 to 2,3 kilograms and they were well balanced. In DA:O however they are quite slow to wield, which they were not in real life. Some interesting data on their use and weight as well as fighting techniques, movements and images can be found at:

http://www.myarmoury...e_arms_gls.html

The Flammberger could be introduced in DA:O as weapon used exclusively by the Grey Warden Order. Several examples of these two-handed Flammberger battle swords are on display in museums, the ones which I request to include in DA:O are the Flammbergers in the image below, preferably the uppermost Flammberger which has a more unique hilt:

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The image underneath shows the hilt of Emperor Maximillian’s two-handed straight-bladed battle sword (long sword) which matches Archduke Sigmund’s and Emperor Maximillian’s gothic armour in style, colour and appearance. It would also make a fine DA:O Grey Warden Order exclusive when combined with Archduke Sigmund’s gothic armour.

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Modifié par Widar Thule, 16 janvier 2010 - 05:54 .


#2
Guest_Kennith Shepard_*

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Looks like you did your homework.

#3
Widar Thule

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Some more images of Archduke Sigmund's gothic armour.

http://www.hammaborg...d//IMG_1603.jpg

http://www.hammaborg...d//IMG_1687.jpg

Front image clearly showing the right shoulder pauldron with attached gardbrace and the left shoulder pauldron with its missing gardbrace. Note that the museum curators have mounted the sallet (helmet) on the bevor (neck armor plate) incorrectly, creating a strange yawn-like opening between the bevor and the sallet.

http://www.hammaborg...d//IMG_1558.jpg

Two front image with the sallet (helmet) mounted correctly on the bevor (armored neck plate).

http://www.hammaborg...d//IMG_5760.jpg

http://www.hammaborg...d//IMG_1605.jpg

Some more sallet images, unfortunately with the sallet mounted incorrectly.

http://www.hammaborg...d//IMG_1527.jpg

http://www.hammaborg...d//IMG_1533.jpg

http://www.hammaborg...d//IMG_1586.jpg

http://www.hammaborg...d//IMG_1587.jpg

http://www.hammaborg...d//IMG_1588.jpg

http://www.hammaborg...d//IMG_1589.jpg

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Four back image clearly showing the lines of the (incorrectly mounted) sallet (helmet). Note the missing back plate of the bevor (armored neck plate) which remains lost to this day.

http://www.hammaborg...d//IMG_1537.jpg

http://www.hammaborg...d//IMG_5773.jpg

http://www.hammaborg...d//IMG_5847.jpg

http://www.hammaborg...d//IMG_5777.jpg

http://www.hammaborg...d//IMG_1526.jpg

http://www.hammaborg...d//IMG_1525.jpg

http://www.hammaborg...d//IMG_5771.jpg

http://www.hammaborg...d//IMG_5765.jpg

http://www.hammaborg...d//IMG_5763.jpg

http://www.hammaborg...d//IMG_1530.jpg

http://www.hammaborg...d//IMG_1529.jpg

http://www.hammaborg...d//IMG_1535.jpg

http://www.hammaborg...d//IMG_1521.jpg

http://www.hammaborg...d//IMG_5768.jpg

Modifié par Widar Thule, 12 janvier 2010 - 12:43 .


#4
Fexelea

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I can't help but lol'ing at the boots.

#5
NKKKK

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omg

#6
Widar Thule

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Fexelea wrote...

I can't help but lol'ing at the boots.


Yes, fashion is a strange thing. At least the regular version for fighting on foot looked decent, but the horse version is kind of strange by today's standard.

Wait till you see the cowfoot armored shoes, they are ever stranger than the long points. They followed the trend of regular shoe fashion and the width and length of a cowfoot shoe were determined your social status. The wider and longer the cowfoot tip of you shoe, the higher your nobility rank. They are even stranger than the long pointed armored shoes. Not to mention the later armoured covers for genitalia.

But then again, how will future generations look at extreme face piercings, tattoos etc. Fashion is a strange thing.

#7
Widar Thule

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Some images of Emperor Maximillian's gothic armour, which was also made by master armourer Lorenz Helmschmied, who also made Archduke Sigmund's gothic armour. The overall appearance is very similar to Archduke Sigmund's gothic armour, but the devil is in the details. Note the distinct side view of the sallet (helmet).

http://www.hammaborg...d//IMG_5755.jpg

http://www.hammaborg...d//IMG_5787.jpg

http://www.hammaborg...d//IMG_5861.jpg

Image showing Emperor Maximillian's gothic armour on the left and Archduke Sigmund's gothic armour on the right.

http://www.hammaborg...e//IMG_5864.jpg

Modifié par Widar Thule, 12 janvier 2010 - 01:40 .


#8
Fexelea

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Fashion is indeed a strange thing, but I am almost certain there can be no walking done on that thing (although if you pull off a kick it would certainly be deadly!) and it just comes to show how nobility were not really expected to fight clean, but rather poison each other. lolz

#9
Widar Thule

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Fexelea wrote...

Fashion is indeed a strange thing, but I am almost certain there can be no walking done on that thing (although if you pull off a kick it would certainly be deadly!) and it just comes to show how nobility were not really expected to fight clean, but rather poison each other. lolz


The extreme long points were only used when on horseback. When on foot the long points were removed and then they were just like normal armoured shoes (sabatons) and looked somehting like this:

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Make no mistake, the nobility of old fought and many, many were killed in battle and tournnaments, jousting etc. Kings, dukes, counts etc.. There is one tournament that counted 80 dead noblemen alone. There is even one instance where a King accidentally killed his own son in a tournament. The nobility of the middle ages fought and demonstrated their prowess in tournnaments and in battle. In 180 years of tournaments and duels over 40,000 deaths were registered in France alone for instance.

Quite unlike todays financial, corporate and politcal "elite" dynasties who never shine in battle, but who "shine" safely behind their desks and who never fight and die themselves in the many wars that they start for their benefit alone.

Modifié par Widar Thule, 16 janvier 2010 - 06:49 .


#10
Widar Thule

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Some images showing besagews, the so-called floatings discs of armour, that protected the armpits in gothic armour and that eliminated the need for the large oversize gardbraces on the shoulder, like the huge gardbraces that characterize DA:O "massive type" armour. The original besagews of Archduke Sigmund's gothic armour are unfortunately lost.

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Modifié par Widar Thule, 12 janvier 2010 - 02:39 .


#11
Fexelea

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Hubby has a rather intense history specialization and he insists that nobility armor was for show. Yes they fought, they went to battle, whatnot, but "real" armor, meant to be worn and battled in for hours, was very different and far more practical.

#12
evilhouseboat

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This post is full of awesome!




#13
Widar Thule

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Fexelea wrote...

Hubby has a rather intense history specialization and he insists that nobility armor was for show. Yes they fought, they went to battle, whatnot, but "real" armor, meant to be worn and battled in for hours, was very different and far more practical.


He and I share a spezialization then. There is over 600 years of development leading to full body armour, which makes all this difficult to catch in a one-liner. Very, very few full body armour sets remain today, which makes it difficult to compare ALL the different armour variants  that existed over a 600-year period. There was heavy horse jousting (tournament) armour, heavy foot tournament armour, decorative (horse and foot) battle armour, horse battle armour, foot battle armour etc.. And many fashion and technological trends in full body armour as well during those 600 years.

The regular battle armour and the decorative battle armour actually differed little, the main thing is that the decorative battle armour was usually very nicely decorated and VERY expensive, like Archduke Sigmund's gothic armour for example. Other than that the differences between regular battle armour and decorative battle armour were not that great if they existed at all. The decorative battle armour was only available to the richest nobles, since full body armour was an expensive item to begin with. For instance, Archduke Sigmund's gothic armour was made for Archduke and Crown Prince Maximillian, the man who would later become Emperor. Maximillian gave it as a gift to Archduke Sigmund, who was his uncle, on his wedding day. Having increasingly decorative battle dress on the battle line has been a trend in Europe up til the Napoleonic age and only the advent of million-men armies in WWI finally put an end to this. Up til then, the elite wore the most decorative battle dress, and this rule also applies to the decorative full body battle armour of the middle ages.

The tournament armour was very heavy and impractical for battle. The nobility preferably did not want to get killed in a tournament, a game so to speak, so tournament armour was made especially "safe", thick and heavy. Tournament armour is instantly recognizable from decorative battle armour and regular battle armour.

At the end of the 600-year development of full body armour the transition was made to the production of solely decorative battle armour for the elite, because the character of armed conflict had changed to the point that fireweapon-proof full body battle armour, which was actually produced, was far too expensive to equip "common folk soldiers" with, coupled to a decline in the frontline participation of nobility in armed conflict. With the advent of  increasingly larger mass armies made up of "common folk", the central role of nobility in armed combat declined and with it the production of high quality full body battle armour. Nobility and their guards had up til then been the main users of the most expensive and effective full body armour on the battlefield. The elite cuirassiers, dragoons, (horse) guards etc. remained an exception to all this and employed battle armour in combat for a few hundred years more until WWI, albeit not in the form of full body battle armour.

Modifié par Widar Thule, 27 janvier 2010 - 11:31 .