153 réponses à ce sujet

[Argentoid]

EDIT: This theory is not related by any means to the Idoctrination Theory. This is different. There is no indoctrination herpty derpty here. The ending still happens in my theory. I'm just pointing out the communication method used with the Catalyst. Again, not IT related.

OH NOES! ANOTHER THEORY?!!! NO MOAR PLEASE!


Ok, ladies and gentlemen, this is my first post. Bear with me, because I've been thinking the whole thing through and this is the only logical explanation to the whole weird encounter with the Catalyst that I can come up with. 

What I'll cite and I'll try to explain:

• Why the Big Bad looks like a child and why he uses Shep's voice.
• Why there's three chambers.
• Very small analysis of every choice. And what happens to Shepard afterwards.
• The Leviathan's connection to the Catalyst.

Here it goes (please don't hit me):

When Shepard gets to the very end of the game, Hackett tries to contact him, but Shep passes out. Then, as we all know, we see some kind of "space elevator" that takes him to where the Catalyst is. This looks very "magical" and "unreal"... So, at this very moment, I think Shepard is gaining access to the Catalyst's programming/mind, in a very similar way that happened with the Leviathan encounter (not Indoctrination related, by the way). Why nobody is trying to contact him anymore? Hackett was just trying to, but then ZOMG, nothing. 

Now, read this: Remember the confrontation with the Leviathan? Well, that giant thing, as I said,  gained access to Shepard's mind too. The Leviathans used familiar images to speak with him ("Your memories give voice to our words")... just like the Catalyst does at the very end:

• He looks like the kid we see on Earth (OH REALLY?).
• He uses Shepard's male and female voice to communicate.
• It was also created in the image of the Leviathans because... well... the Leviathans created him, and it's assumed that the StarChild gathered an army of pawns.
• The Catalyst, therefore, is using the same comunication methods as his creators (the Leviathans) did.

So, at this final scene, Shepard's consciouness is actually being merged with the Catalyst's AI programming. The Catalyst's uses familiar images that allow Shepard to comprehend what he is seeing. The Catalyst himself, Earth, the Crucible, the colors of and the presence of the Control/Destroy chamber... everything is a representation of what is at stake, (plus Shepard seems to be in space at that very moment, so I've always wondered how he was able to breathe air, because: THERE'S NO AIR IN SPACE... or maybe because there's still an atmosphere around). 

Getting back to the whole "programming" thing, we DO actually see something like this at the Geth mission where we gain access to the Geth's core programming. But this time, we can't understand what we are seeing, except from some surreal white walls and strange orange boxes floating around.



Now, the choices:

The Crucible forces the Catalyst to meet up with Shepard. As soon as the Crucible attachs to the Citadel, Shepard gets contacted by Hackett. The former says" I... I'm not sure how to... " and then WHAM, Space Elevator does the job. The Crucible did what no other device could: Communicate with the Catalyst ("The fact that you're standing here, the first organic ever proves it"). In the end, the Crucible ends up altering the variablies, now, up to three. Those are: Destroy, Control and Synthesis.

Destroy: Shepard destroys the Catalyst's core programming, leaving the Reapers useless. Also, this is the only ending where Shepard wakes up. That's because he wakes AFTER the whole mind-melding encounter with the Catalyst. (He can still die in this ending if your EMS is low, but maybe that's because of the Crucible's state and what it targets).

Control: The Catalyst AI is replaced by Shepard's consciouness. Shepard dies, or (due to this "mind exchange"), he's probably left in a comatose state (just like Ann Bryson in the Leviathan DLC, after spending too much time communicating with the Leviathans).

Synthesis: The Catalyst gains access to Shepard's DNA and synthetic components, and allows them to be merged with the Crucible's energy, then spreading to the whole galaxy. Shepard also dies, likely desintegrated to the subatomic level in the "real" world... or maybe he's left in a comatose state too. (This was the hardest one to figure out, its just way too much Space Magic to understand.)

Refuse: The Crucible shuts down, as soon as the Catalyst leaves the scene. This shows the importance of the Crucible, as it probably forces to establish a connection between Shep and the StarChild. When Shep refuses, the Crucible "reacts" to this type of act. Then the scene fades to black.

PS: Shepard was on his knees when he confronted the Leviathan. Later, when he confronts the Catalyst, Shepard wakes up with his knees and hands on the ground in a VERY similar way. That also struck me as odd.

• Shepard on his knees during Leviathan confrontation
• Shepard on his knees during the Catalyst confrontation

TL;DR

So, all in all, THE ENDINGS HAPPEN. Only difference is that the whole Catalyst confrontation takes place inside the Catalyst's programming, mind interfacing with Shepard, as probably the StarChild has the same abilities to communicate as the Leviathans did. What we see, as said before, are familiar images, ala "Rannoch: Geth Fighter Squadrons" (the Geth conciousness) mission and the Leviathan confrontation, this last one being VERY similar to the ending scene with StarChild itself. Therefore, the Catalyst uses Shepard memories too in order to give voice to his words. 

(I'm might be wrong. Still, this was done with my best attempt. Damn crappy english.)




EDIT: Wrote some more stuff, in an attempt to make it more clear.


EDIT 2: In my opinion, it doesn't make any sense for the three chambers (R, G and to be on the Citadel. If we take them at face value, they've been there for billions of years, and still nobody figured out that the Catalyst resides there... and that there's a strange Reaper-off button as clear as the sun. It doesn't make any sense.

So, to me, the Catalyst makes symbols to guide Shepard into making the final choice.

EDIT 3: Added REFUSE.

EDIT 4: Found this.



This is the old version of the Catalyst "consensus". It had trees. Just like those from Shepard's nightmares. Why it was removed? We may never know. Maybe because Mac and Casey wanted to keep things "high level".

Modifié par Argentoid, 21 octobre 2013 - 08:56 .

[Clayless]

An IT thread in other words.

[Argentoid]

Robosexual wrote...

An IT thread in other words.

Not really. Cummon, give me a break. I actually don't like IT. Leviathan DLC proves some stuff I said. I never said that Shepard was being indoctrinated. That's cheap.

Plus, IT establishes that the WHOLE ending thing is just a dream: from London blue beam till the encounter with the Catalyst. 

Modifié par Argentoid, 10 février 2013 - 08:34 .

[Soultaker08]

Argentoid wrote...

OH NOES! ANOTHER THEORY?!!! NO MOAR PLEASE!

why u ruin perfect beginning !

[Atekimagus]

I don't really like the IT since once indoctrinated, so far there is no going back.

So in my headcanon, he just bumped his head really hard somewhere (preferable before the whole citadel is moved to earth nonsense starts) and has just the weirdest dreams, about people he loves dying, weird childs who creeps him out and fear of the future.

And the whole "take back earth" arc is still about to happen.

[GreyLycanTrope]

So it's a hallucination induced by blood loss instead of indoctrination. Underlying principle is still the same though, which goes back to my underlying problem with the ending being a hallucination for whatever reason. If you can't trust the visuals in a visual medium we can't be certain anything is even happening, for all we know this is all a dream and Shep is just imagining everything while bleeding out on the ground.

Also brings up the question of why an AI would want to merge with a dying human who at the moment is essentially tripping balls.

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 10 février 2013 - 09:01 .

[AlexMBrennan]

Not really

You are reading way to much in the "indoctrination" part of IT - fundamentally, IT claims that the events on the Citadel (and possibly events prior to that) are not real; the details are irrelevant as they are all completely pointless - I could conjecture that Shepard is really still on Eden Prime after getting hit by the beacon and there would be no way to prove that wrong either. There's no reason to believe in any variation of it until such a time that someone digs up an observation inconsistent with the null hypothesis ("The events are real but Bioware's writing is occasionally sub-optimal")

Many orthodox people speak as though it were the business of sceptics to disprove received dogmas rather than of dogmatists to prove them. This is, of course, a mistake. If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense.

[TheIdiocyWizard2.0]

Robosexual wrote...

An IT thread in other words.

*Sigh* No, it's not. But even if it was that doesn't give you the right to say "OH IT'S IT HERP DERP" and write off the points the OP made as if he was some crazy guy in a wheel chair who claims he's JFK and that the government dyed him black.

[AlanC9]

Greylycantrope wrote...

So it's a hallucination induced by blood loss instead of indoctrination. Underlying principle is still the same though, which goes back to my underlying problem with the ending being a hallucination for whatever reason. If you can't trust the visuals in a visual medium we can't be certain anything is even happening, for all we know this is all a dream and Shep is just imagining everything while bleeding out on the ground.

I agree that we need to be able to trust visuals. However, we can trust that visuals from Shepard's POV are something that Shepard is actually experiencing, even if they don't correspond to physical reality. Otherwise Bio couldn't do parts of Overlord and Leviathan, nor the Geth Consensus mission..

The only problem here is the elevator lift scene; that can't be from Shepard's POV since Shepard isn't conscious.

It's quite silly to lump this theory in with IT. The essential substance of IT is that the final choices are not real and 3/4 of the ending sequences are outright lies from Bio to the player. In this theory  the endings are real.... although if Bio adopted the interpretation they would be allowed to retcon Shepard back to life in Control and Synthesis.

Modifié par AlanC9, 10 février 2013 - 09:39 .

[AlexMBrennan]

Nope. OP said

This looks very "magical" and "unreal", hell, it even smells like Indoctration to me... So, at this very moment, I think Shepard is "hallucinating" (this is not Indoctrination, by the way)

The events after Shepard passes out at the terminal are not real, making this another variation of "ending isn't real hypothesis" aka IT.

[AlanC9]

Hallucination != indoctrination. Though I agree that the OP's rhetoric isn't helpful if he doesn't want this to be thought of as an IT variant. 

Modifié par AlanC9, 10 février 2013 - 10:31 .

[Argentoid]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

Nope. OP said

This looks very "magical" and "unreal", hell, it even smells like Indoctration to me... So, at this very moment, I think Shepard is "hallucinating" (this is not Indoctrination, by the way)

The events after Shepard passes out at the terminal are not real, making this another variation of "ending isn't real hypothesis" aka IT.

Well, I wanted to say that Shepard is actually confronting the same situation that happened to him back with Leviathan: Passes out, familiar start images appear.

In fact, everything "happens", but all inside the Catalyst programming + Shepard's conciousness.

Note that I'm not a native-english speaker, so sometimes it's hard for me to explain my thoughts.

Modifié par Argentoid, 10 février 2013 - 10:51 .

[DWH1982]

I'm a little surprised by how critical people are being. My theory for some time has been that Starbrat was talking to Shep by interfacing with his mind.

Please note that this doesn't mean that the conversation doesn't happen, or that Shepard is being indoctrinated. The conversation still happens. It's just that Shepard isn't physically present in the area we see, and he controls the Crucible, chats with Starbrat, and makes the final decisions through some kind of mind interface.

If I still could be bothered wiht the endings, I think that would be an acceptable way to make sense of some of the oddities that are present in the last scene.

[noobcannon]

Seival wrote...

Absurd. And IT related... Reported.

[DWH1982]

Again, how is this "IT related?" It seems to me that the OP is just saying that the final scene takes place through some kind of mind interface.

The kid is still "real" and what he says he is - he just communicates by interfacing with Shepard's mind. The ending conversation still takes place, it just takes place by interfacing with Shepard's mind. The final decisions still take place, Shepard just "chooses" by interfacing with the Crucible via a mind interface.

There's nothing absurd about that. It's a perfectly valid theory for making sense of some of the oddities in the frankly crummy endings that we were given.

Modifié par DWH1982, 10 février 2013 - 11:15 .

[Argentoid]

DWH1982 wrote...

Again, how is this "IT related." It seems to me that the OP is just saying that the final scene takes place through some kind of mind interface.

The kid is still "real" and what he says he is - he just communicates by interfacing with Shepard's mind. The ending conversation still takes place, it just takes place by interfacing with Shepard's mind. The final decisions still take place, Shepard just "chooses" by interfacing with the Crucible via a mind interface.

Sir, you understand me. I salute you.

Modifié par Argentoid, 10 février 2013 - 11:15 .

[noobcannon]

the "catalyst" takes on the image of a child that only shepard saw and is voiced by shep and femshep, pretty obvious it's some type of "mind interface", whether it's a form of IT or not.

[Jadebaby]

It's funny how it's all the people that like the endings, carry on and act like children....

@OP, I like the theory, needs a tl;dr version. Every theory does! ; )

[Argentoid]

Jadebaby wrote...

It's funny how it's all the people that like the endings, carry on and act like children....

@OP, I like the theory, needs a tl;dr version. Every theory does! ; )

Thanks! And as I said, note that I'm a non native-english speaker, so sometimes it's harder for me to express my thoughts...

[Niholaren]

Well your theory make sense . It is highly possible that the Catalyst "talked" to Shepard through thoughts and what we see is the representation in shepards mind.

Modifié par Niholaren, 10 février 2013 - 11:23 .

[noobcannon]

Niholaren wrote...

Well your theory make sense . It is highly possible that the Catalyst "talked" to Shepard through thoughts and what we see is the representation in shepards mind.

how else would the catalyst take on the form of someone only shepard saw?

[k.lalh]

I like it.

I figured that the Catalyst needed to interface with his mind somehow, as there is no other way it would make sense for the Catalyst to appear as the child, unless it had access to Shepard's memory.

Good work OP.

[kavox]

Firstly, i am an IT supporter. Secondly, OP, your theory is valid, but unfortunately it still is just that, a theory. The catalyst has just stated that it is the collected consciousness of all reapers, and Shepard doesn't freak out, wth. He just goes along with what he says like he's been doped.

Btw I find it amusing that almost a year after the ending of the game, with EC to help 'expand' on it, that many still sit here and try to make sense of it. Kind of telling if you ask me.

[JasonShepard]

So it's a mind-interface rather than a direct occurrence. I can live with that. That does raise the question of how Shepard gets analysed for the Synthesis ending but allow me to slightly edit your theory: Perhaps the 'space-elevator' does happen, but it doesn't lead Shepard outside - instead it leads him into the core of the Catalyst.

And for those of you crying IT - No. There is no indoctrination in this theory. Therefore it is not IT.

[Argentoid]

noobcannon wrote...

Niholaren wrote...

Well your theory make sense . It is highly possible that the Catalyst "talked" to Shepard through thoughts and what we see is the representation in shepards mind.

how else would the catalyst take on the form of someone only shepard saw?

Obvious troll is obvious.

I SAID THAT THE CATALYST HAS THE SAME ABILITIES THAT THE LEVIATHANS HAVE. THE LEVIATHANS USED SHEPARD'S MEMORIES (therefore, familiar or recently seen people, like Ann Bryson) TO COMMUNICATE. THE CATALYST DOES THE SAME.