Conversation between Shepard and the Catalyst is mental. That was obvious even in the original ending.
IT was about making Destroy the only ending, not about mental conversations. That's why IT was pure nonsense or just a parody with very few people involved in 4000-pages-long-spam-and-flood-discussion. And that's why IT was prohibited for public discussions.
you didn't study it much did you? Mental conversations are exactly what IT is about. Read up. You know you don't want to.
Anyhoo mute point it now is. Leviathan changed everything.
People on here criticise ITers but they saw something in the ending that (according to many many articles - including one by Forbes) would have pulled Bioderps ending out of the dumpster.
The thing about the ending is that there are so many questions still left un-answered. The extended cut just added to them. Leviathan added to them some more. Citadel DLC just threw the whole thing into question.
In a way I hope Shepard lost. I hope shepard did indeed fall. It would show that even the best of us can lose.
Does anyone know for sure what the hell happened? Nope. Thats why threads like this exist.
dorktainian wrote... People on here criticise ITers but they saw something in the ending that (according to many many articles - including one by Forbes) would have pulled Bioderps ending out of the dumpster.
People on here criticise ITers but they saw something in the ending that (according to many many articles - including one by Forbes) would have pulled Bioderps ending out of the dumpster.
IT in its current form merely pulls the ending out of Bioware's dumpster and tosses it into a completely different one.
Any ending which requires that I make up in my head the final fate of Shepard, Anderson, TIM, the Reapers, and the fate of the entire galaxy isn't an ending at all, imo.
I respect you guys who like playing with thoughts and theories in your heads about what the endings actually meant but seriously don't go overboard with it. Clearly you put way more thought into it than Bioware ever did. There is no deeper meaning to these endings. There's as deep of a meaning as there was in Liara's "gift" which showed her and Shepard staring into something that was supposedly amazing but when you think about it, it was basically nothing. It's just my opinion.
I respect you guys who like playing with thoughts and theories in your heads about what the endings actually meant but seriously don't go overboard with it. Clearly you put way more thought into it than Bioware ever did. There is no deeper meaning to these endings. There's as deep of a meaning as there was in Liara's "gift" which showed her and Shepard staring into something that was supposedly amazing but when you think about it, it was basically nothing. It's just my opinion.
So are you calling the similarities between the Catalyst and the Leviathans just a mere coincedence? Then, what was the purpose of the Levi DLC?
I respect you guys who like playing with thoughts and theories in your heads about what the endings actually meant but seriously don't go overboard with it. Clearly you put way more thought into it than Bioware ever did. There is no deeper meaning to these endings. There's as deep of a meaning as there was in Liara's "gift" which showed her and Shepard staring into something that was supposedly amazing but when you think about it, it was basically nothing. It's just my opinion.
So are you calling the similarities between the Catalyst and the Leviathans just a mere coincedence? Then, what was the purpose of the Levi DLC?
Well, here's the thing: you're assuming that the Levi dlc needed some purpose. It's possible, but not necessary.
This is the same basic problem when ITers (just as an example) point to Shepard's infinite ammo gun and say: "If it wasn't a dream, why does Shepard have an infinite clip?" They're assuming authorial intent, where it's not explicit.
Sure, it's all a dream is a possible answer. The writers have no idea what they're doing is another possible answer. Or they took a gameplay shortcut, which is fairly typical in a video game.
Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 22 octobre 2013 - 12:27 .
ME3 is the ultimate ambiguous ending. It's the enigma of game endings. Never. And I mean NEVER have I witnessed anything like it.
^^^^^
Anyway OP, I've never seen this thread. The theory itself (that the ending is a simulation but with real effects) is something I've discussed online before, so it's not quite 'new' (even 8 months ago), BUT it has backup in the story.
I respect you guys who like playing with thoughts and theories in your heads about what the endings actually meant but seriously don't go overboard with it. Clearly you put way more thought into it than Bioware ever did. There is no deeper meaning to these endings. There's as deep of a meaning as there was in Liara's "gift" which showed her and Shepard staring into something that was supposedly amazing but when you think about it, it was basically nothing. It's just my opinion.
So are you calling the similarities between the Catalyst and the Leviathans just a mere coincedence? Then, what was the purpose of the Levi DLC?
Well, here's the thing: you're assuming that the Levi dlc needed some purpose. It's possible, but not necessary.
This is the same basic problem when ITers (just as an example) point to Shepard's infinite ammo gun and say: "If it wasn't a dream, why does Shepard have an infinite clip?" They're assuming authorial intent, where it's not explicit.
Sure, it's all a dream is a possible answer. The writers have no idea what they're doing is another possible answer. Or they took a gameplay shortcut, which is fairly typical in a video game.
Yeah, but I find hard to believe that BioWare would spend time, money and resources developing a story focused DLC just for the sake of it. Fans wanted Omega and Aria, they got Omega and Aria. Fans wanted more LI content, they got more LI content. Fans wanted more explanation, they somewhat got more explanation, but not spoon-fed per se.
People on here criticise ITers but they saw something in the ending that (according to many many articles - including one by Forbes) would have pulled Bioderps ending out of the dumpster.
IT in its current form merely pulls the ending out of Bioware's dumpster and tosses it into a completely different one.
Any ending which requires that I make up in my head the final fate of Shepard, Anderson, TIM, the Reapers, and the fate of the entire galaxy isn't an ending at all, imo.
OK, I'm back! Just had to finish my Rannoch arc and Leviathan DLC, OP (yes really; I'm doing a DefaultNewShep playthrough of ME3 just to see the differences... had to kill the Geth :S)
NOTE: While I have IT sympathies and call myself an 'ITer' for ease of conversation, my actual opinions often deviate FAR AWAY from what people call Indoctrination Theory. In truth, I feel I incorporate several fan theories and several of my own.
I completely agree with your original posting. There IS a simulation happening, I'm almost sure of it.
A part that was somewhat 'new' to my reasoning/theorizing though, was considering how the 'Catalyst' really WAS 'changed' (even temporarily) by interaction with the Crucible. Whatever happened, it very well may explain why the Catalyst was so... accommodating?
With Low EMS, AKA a lame Crucible being built, it is more threatening and nearly hostile. I don't consider it an outright hacking, but there is some measure of 'force to open its eyes'.
This would fit the ideas of the Red, Blue, and Green.
Low Destroy and Control, we clearly seem to damage a lot of the galaxy in the process.
Low choices even depends on our Collector Base decision. Why would this matter? Because Collector Base was the last purely Shepard-based clear moral decision (even with its own Blue or Red wave) in the main story. The Tuchanka and Rannoch decisions were more murky - the involved the 'colors', but in various ways. This is another thing that implies that the choices themselves are all in Shepard's head, based on his... or our (player) moralities. The Red and Blue waves are innate to Shepard from the start of the series, but the Green is alien, unknowable, and seemingly new before ME3 proceeds. High Destroy and Control, we victoriously destroy the Reapers with more precise direction given by the Crucible (a power source but seemingly also an aiming device), or we victoriously take over control of the Reapers. EMS = Hope, and the whole scenario is reflected that way. Shepard ALWAYS has hope (it is another thing innate to his character), but he doesn't necessarily NEED it in order to finish the fight itself - only to produce the ideal results the he, and we, want.
Synthesis... well, synthesis is one of the results of huge metagaming. Want to save the Krogan species (especially with changing them to a more peaceful seeming status)? Well, go for the giant Green Tower to disperse the Green Cure to everyone. Want to achieve the even harder goal of Geth and Quarian Peace (or at least spread the Legion-love to all Geth)? Well, disperse the Green Code to everyone and we all be Peaceful - heck, the Quarians may even hold this Green Geth Code in their suits!
In essence, Shepard/we 'hack' how the galaxy works, through sustained effort (though Bioware makes sure to allow some aspect of it to happen for fresh players of ME3), to enforce not just a Destruction of enemies or dangers, or Control the various factions for their own good, but instead Merge us all into one whole.
Is that morally good? Well, that's up to you. There must be A reason the Reapers/Intelligence decided on its weaker form of Synthesis (Huskification maybe?), after all?
Perhaps Harbinger is more clumsy about it than heroic Shepard? The Collectors may be insults, but what if they were Harbinger's efforts at true organic/synthetic synthesis, but because the Reapers are ultimately evil robot demons (thinking themselves dark angels), it is always doomed to failure?
A tangent, but anyway, my point is that the Crucible scenario seems based upon memories of past victories in particular.
~~~~ Back to your theory.
Where I may disagree, is that you seem to think that it is only a simulation happening at the end of the game. I can't go with only that, but well... I only have 'several parts of the whole' (as Jacob's Cerberus mission datapad goes), and not enough to definitively state what is happening. I do have a few thoughts to initially share though:
-With all the mentions of dreams, nightmares, and waking up (even in DLC like friggin Omega and Citadel!), it seems to me that 'waking nightmare' of some sort is happening throughout the whole game, and in a way, maybe the whole trilogy. We won't know for sure though, at least for now.
-I'm becoming more and more convinced that the 'Catalyst' AKA Intelligence, is actually Sovereign (King), installing itself onto the Citadel before 'dying'. Proof? Nah, I don't have proof. But it is becoming damn convincing to me. Crucibles never complete? Maybe because they all missed the Catalyst AKA the mega supercomputer to interface and utilize the mass relays, all Reaper tech. Harbinger comes out of nowhere? What if he only became the 'leader' after Sovereign loses the power? His Human Reaper project very well may be a project to enforce his own view of the Cycle, not the more 'neutrally benevolent' one of Sovereign. "The Citadel is my home." --> "I am Sovereign, and THIS STATION IS *MINE*." Sovereign is also rendered impotent (), unable to interfere with organics on the Citadel, and only hacked into by the Crucible.
I admit that a weakness of my idea here is that the Crucible seems to fit so neatly onto the Citadel. Why would it do that if the Catalyst was always Sovereign? Either I'm wrong, or things are even more complex. Another possibility is that the Citadel was always the Catalyst (as in, the station itself, not any AI), but Sovereign/Intelligence(?) being on it means we were able to access the choices. Sovereign being on the Citadel may identify with it like EDI identifies with the Normandy, making them almost one and the same. Another thing is, why or how would the Catalyst be able to put us into a simulation, just from ...lying on the ground? You'd think there would be at least a bit clearer of an indication, right?
Well, Harbinger. And in a way, 'IT' (I know, I know). Leviathan DLC makes clear that Harbinger has the simulation powers of Leviathan x100 (or whatever). Whatever the Geth do in simulation, the Leviathans do exponentially better, and the Reapers/Harbinger does even exponentially better than Leviathans. "What if you never got out?"; indeed, Joker. I don't find it beyond belief that Harbinger, upon seeing Shepard reach the beam alive (though it's speculation whether he allowed it to happen), would go "Ok, you've forced my hand - let's see what you can do." and put Shepard into this realm. Do I know exactly WHY he would do this? Nah, it's all fragments of information without context.
Crazy town? You bet. I'm expecting you to want me out of your thread by now , but to me, there's a purpose with all of this..
If the ending is a simulation, then no, we don't *really* know what happens in the ending slides of EC and all that. However, the TONE of the DLCs (especially Omega and Citadel) and the ending results themselves, those give me hope. But not full answers. While people may be thinking the next Mass Effect game will have absolutely nothing to do with Shepard or ME3, I'm more inclined to believe that they'll have all the answers, just in a different format. They don't need to directly state "Shepard was in a simulation", if the next game contains simulations with details that explain how the ME3 ending was a simulation. We don't need direct answers - just indications and explanations through the narrative itself.
-A last bit. I think Shepard can suffer indoctrination, and it is a part of the story. However, it's up to the player how much we want this to happen, due to Shepard's (strange) resistance to it, regardless of being near a Reaper artifact for hours or not, in Arrival DLC. Paragon? We're weakened by loss and intrusions become worse on Shepard's mindset, making him perhaps wonder if Controlling the Reapers might be possible. Renegade? We're stressed and showing our implants (without cosmetic surgery, I mean), but doggedly determined to resist any influence. The dreams? IMO they ARE indicative of indoctrination, but they do not mean the ending itself is indoc. It all becomes an optional plot point, and Bioware seems to me to have decided to not force us into indoctrination. Shepard is an anomaly, and I like to think that a big part of this is resistance to indoctrination.
What do I mean by all this? I mean that Shepard at the ending, isn't necessarily some indoctrinated thrall. He's not dreaming in some rubble the whole time like IT says, imagining the ending. Instead, like you said, he really is experiencing the choices. But he's in a Waking Nightmare, vision warped by memory. And his Mind is Interfaced with some system, in order to make the decision he needs to make.
"... and then Shepard woke up in bed and it had all been a dream....."
Ok, there is NO way we would do that becuase it is among the cheesiest McGuffin around, but it is an example of what can be done. I can't say the more "real" possibilities because I may accidentally mention what may really happen. I'm just saying that people who think it MUST be X or XY are really limiting their vision.
People may have issues with Priestly for whatever reasons they have, but I take this quote pretty seriously. It doesn't just have to be only (singular): -a dream -indoctrination -a simulation/illusion -warped memory -others
It can be several things at once, and a future game may very well explain HOW THIS IS POSSIBLE.
The Stables - they want the symbiosis between the humans and AIs to continue. The Volatiles - they see no need to continue the Core's relationship with humankind, and feel that it is in the Core's best interests to eliminate humankind once and for all. The Ultimates - they want to build the next level of artificial consciousness, the Ultimate Intelligence, and leave the decision to the UI.
I like this theory, that would fit very well for another Shepard I'm slowing thinking about making (would be my fourth). My first "main" Shepard was indoctrinated (head canon). My second Shepard went with Control (perfectly fine with that one and was fitting him well). My third went with Synthesis. I'm thinking about going with Destroy for my fourth Shepard but without head-canonizing any indoctrination and only going with "went with Destroy at the end of the interfacing phase" thing, thanks to this new theory.
I just restarted to play ME3 campaign only recently, however, and just finished my third Shepard's ME3 campaign like a week ago (the Synthesis ending, and that Shepard had no love interest at all in the whole trilogy and role-played her in a more selfish way). I think I'll take a small break, but since I found ways to interpret the game in satisfying manners lately I think that another go at it wouldn't be bad, and this time I swear to myself I need to make a Soldier Shepard (first was Adept, second was Engineer, third was Infiltrator).
I like the thread OP. Very well thought out. I agree with your theory; in fact something similar has crossed my mind on more than one occasion.
I'm not sure if this has been mentioned already but I think perhaps the space elevator is a symbolic way of Shepard's mind almost being 'uplifted.' As the only one who survived the confrontation with IM and Anderson, perhaps he is considered 'worthy' by the A.I.
I respect you guys who like playing with thoughts and theories in your heads about what the endings actually meant but seriously don't go overboard with it. Clearly you put way more thought into it than Bioware ever did. There is no deeper meaning to these endings. There's as deep of a meaning as there was in Liara's "gift" which showed her and Shepard staring into something that was supposedly amazing but when you think about it, it was basically nothing. It's just my opinion.
So are you calling the similarities between the Catalyst and the Leviathans just a mere coincedence? Then, what was the purpose of the Levi DLC?
To make the ending seem like it was planned from the get-go to potential Mass Effect newcomers and delusional fans.
I like the thread OP. Very well thought out. I agree with your theory; in fact something similar has crossed my mind on more than one occasion.
I'm not sure if this has been mentioned already but I think perhaps the space elevator is a symbolic way of Shepard's mind almost being 'uplifted.' As the only one who survived the confrontation with IM and Anderson, perhaps he is considered 'worthy' by the A.I.
Quite possible.
While I'm not even sure if that's really Anderson and TIM (heh), I can imagine it as a test clear enough to determine if Shepard is even able to achieve other outcomes than 'kill all robots VS work with them with disaster eventually happening'.
Ugh, this gives me 'bad writing' feelings now though. It's exactly what made me dislike the ending for its disjointedness and outright deus ex machina.
Because no, I don't really think a Reaper God is remotely trustworthy, nor is the ending scenario, and I'm given no real reason in the overt narrative on why I should. In fact the overt narrative keeps bashing my head with "REAPER BAD, WE KILL DEM.", in various forms.
I like the thread OP. Very well thought out. I agree with your theory; in fact something similar has crossed my mind on more than one occasion.
I'm not sure if this has been mentioned already but I think perhaps the space elevator is a symbolic way of Shepard's mind almost being 'uplifted.' As the only one who survived the confrontation with IM and Anderson, perhaps he is considered 'worthy' by the A.I.
Quite possible.
While I'm not even sure if that's really Anderson and TIM (heh), I can imagine it as a test clear enough to determine if Shepard is even able to achieve other outcomes than 'kill all robots VS work with them with disaster eventually happening'.
Ugh, this gives me 'bad writing' feelings now though. It's exactly what made me dislike the ending for its disjointedness and outright deus ex machina.
Because no, I don't really think a Reaper God is remotely trustworthy, nor is the ending scenario, and I'm given no real reason in the overt narrative on why I should. In fact the overt narrative keeps bashing my head with "REAPER BAD, WE KILL DEM.", in various forms.
LOL. Your banner foreshadows Synthesis. LE WRITERZ HAD IT ALL PLAND!!!
[Full disclosure] I've not read anything posted so far....
Wise of you to state in the title that IT is NOT involved. That is the fastest way to get your thread locked....am I right Stan?
Huehue. Not sure if you were serious or just ironic.
Hhahah. Dont know what side I'm on about Stan closing too many topics, but he definitely closes a lot of IT ending stuff. That said, people keep flooding the forum with this mess a year+ later. I see no less than half a dozen topics active with half a dozen or more pages about IT
What do I mean by all this? I mean that Shepard at the ending, isn't necessarily some indoctrinated thrall. He's not dreaming in some rubble the whole time like IT says, imagining the ending. Instead, like you said, he really is experiencing the choices. But he's in a Waking Nightmare, vision warped by memory. And his Mind is Interfaced with some system, in order to make the decision he needs to make.
I prefer Twin Paradox Theory. Where Shepard subconciousness enters the beam and then Twin Paradox takes over - his subconciousness moving in a different time frame as everything else. Meanwhile Shepards BODY is still lying on earth. Remember after all that TIME is a huge factor in mass effect technology - read the opening scrawl from Mass Effect 1.
instead of cliff and biff, shepards mind and body.
One interpretation to why the catalysts projection would look like the kid is likely due to Shepards nightmares about that "kid"... Shepard is predisposed to interpret inkspots and pretty much anything s/he sees as the kid that's become a traumatic memory... Just like that PTSD Asari on the citadel that see's the girl she killed in every human she sees, worse ofcourse if they look like the girl.
Shepard, for some reason feels responsible for failing to get that kid to follow him/her to safety. It's the marks of Shepards PTSD. It's a reoccuring theme in ME3, with soldiers being on the edge of mental collapse.
It's more likely than to think the Catalyst scanned all of Shepards memories and took the form.
Nothing is impossible though. But the simplest explanation is likely the right one.
I like the thread OP. Very well thought out. I agree with your theory; in fact something similar has crossed my mind on more than one occasion.
I'm not sure if this has been mentioned already but I think perhaps the space elevator is a symbolic way of Shepard's mind almost being 'uplifted.' As the only one who survived the confrontation with IM and Anderson, perhaps he is considered 'worthy' by the A.I.
Quite possible.
While I'm not even sure if that's really Anderson and TIM (heh), I can imagine it as a test clear enough to determine if Shepard is even able to achieve other outcomes than 'kill all robots VS work with them with disaster eventually happening'.
Ugh, this gives me 'bad writing' feelings now though. It's exactly what made me dislike the ending for its disjointedness and outright deus ex machina.
Because no, I don't really think a Reaper God is remotely trustworthy, nor is the ending scenario, and I'm given no real reason in the overt narrative on why I should. In fact the overt narrative keeps bashing my head with "REAPER BAD, WE KILL DEM.", in various forms.
LOL. Your banner foreshadows Synthesis. LE WRITERZ HAD IT ALL PLAND!!!
I don't actually think Synthesis is the most super-super bad outcome.
As the claw game in Citadel DLC goes - You're a winner regardless of color grabbed But as cone game with the Vorcha goes - "You lose! Play again!"
In the end, they're just endings (bad, good, whatever), and we'll see whether Bioware addesses them or entirely ignores them. (by address, I don't mean 'relate a main storyline directly to' - I only mean that they give us the 'tools' to greater understand what's happening, literal or non-literal, I don't care)
Retour en haut
(yes really; I'm doing a DefaultNewShep playthrough of ME3 just to see the differences... had to kill the Geth :S)
, but to me, there's a purpose with all of this..
