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[Indy_S]

LordBagardo wrote...

A man being charismatic and handsome are both great strengths for him to have. The same goes for a woman.

EDI's body comes from Eva, a synthetic designed to blend into a group of organics and gain their trust. One of the easiest ways it could have done that is by demanding respect through sex appeal.

So no, I think it makes sense for her to be the way she is. And her appearance, from a design point of view, portrays her femininity very clearly. A LOKI mech would have made her seem like even more of a bodiless hunk of metal than she already was.

I don't have a problem with the in-universe reason she looks like this. I never have. But why does she need feminity at all? Why does she need it exaggerated the way it is?

[JBPBRC]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Indy_S wrote...

Why wouldn't ME1 models count, just curiously?

Miranda, EDI, Liara, Ashley, Shepard, Samara, Morinth. Huh, you're right. About the same number. Can you look at those characters and not see their exaggerated features? Given that four of them have previously had smaller/non-existent breasts, do you think their redesign is mature, at least in regards to said exaggerated features?

Because, due to limitations of the game, every single character had the exact same body.

I might agree with you if their breasts were unrealistically large, but they are not.

Have you seen Benezia by chance? Her chest was so large it was talked about even in ME3. Just saiyan. 

Modifié par JBPBRC, 11 février 2013 - 01:13 .

[BleedingUranium]

JBPBRC wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Indy_S wrote...

Why wouldn't ME1 models count, just curiously?

Miranda, EDI, Liara, Ashley, Shepard, Samara, Morinth. Huh, you're right. About the same number. Can you look at those characters and not see their exaggerated features? Given that four of them have previously had smaller/non-existent breasts, do you think their redesign is mature, at least in regards to said exaggerated features?

Because, due to limitations of the game, every single character had the exact same body.

I might agree with you if their breasts were unrealistically large, but they are not.

Have you seen Benezia by chance? Her chest was so large it was talked about even in ME3. Just saiyan. 

Quite true, but I was saying that it's not nearly as rampant as he's making it out to be. Also noteworthy is that Asari are always shown as more attractive than human females (that's the point). This is much more obvious with random NPCs, ever since ME1 the Asari have always had the prettier faces.

[Indy_S]

Indy_S wrote...

Each squadmate was designed individually and when put side-by-side, I get repelled by the realisation that all of them are just somebody else's fantasy. That is not the effect the designers were after at all.

I made this quote nine hours ago and I feel it's just as relevant now.

[JBPBRC]

BleedingUranium wrote...

 Also noteworthy is that Asari are always shown as more attractive than human females (that's the point). This is much more obvious with random NPCs, ever since ME1 the Asari have always had the prettier faces.

...Eh. I never found generic NPCs to be all that attractive in any case, regardless of race. YMMV obviously.

[78stonewobble]

Indy_S wrote...

Indy_S wrote...

Each squadmate was designed individually and when put side-by-side, I get repelled by the realisation that all of them are just somebody else's fantasy. That is not the effect the designers were after at all.

I made this quote nine hours ago and I feel it's just as relevant now.

Well you could use that argument to dismiss everyone in every movie and every book. Any character created by someone else actually.

With a visual media like movies or games I'd say that atleast some of the point to it all is exactly to see other peoples visions of something.

Sure I can probably headcannon my entirely own scifi universe... but where would the surprises come from then? 

[BleedingUranium]

Indy_S wrote...

Indy_S wrote...

Each squadmate was designed individually and when put side-by-side, I get repelled by the realisation that all of them are just somebody else's fantasy. That is not the effect the designers were after at all.

I made this quote nine hours ago and I feel it's just as relevant now.

Are you saying that people can't fantasize about smaller breasted women?

[Indy_S]

78stonewobble wrote...

Indy_S wrote...

Indy_S wrote...

Each squadmate was designed individually and when put side-by-side, I get repelled by the realisation that all of them are just somebody else's fantasy. That is not the effect the designers were after at all.

I made this quote nine hours ago and I feel it's just as relevant now.

Well you could use that argument to dismiss everyone in every movie and every book. Any character created by someone else actually.

It's generic, I won't deny that. But seeing all of those busty women breaks my immersion more than the fact that they're standing with aliens. Ones a conceit of the setting, the other is the designers anticipating one thing and getting another.

[BleedingUranium]

It's only immersion breaking to you because you choose to see it that way.

[78stonewobble]

Indy_S wrote...

LordBagardo wrote...

A man being charismatic and handsome are both great strengths for him to have. The same goes for a woman.

EDI's body comes from Eva, a synthetic designed to blend into a group of organics and gain their trust. One of the easiest ways it could have done that is by demanding respect through sex appeal.

So no, I think it makes sense for her to be the way she is. And her appearance, from a design point of view, portrays her femininity very clearly. A LOKI mech would have made her seem like even more of a bodiless hunk of metal than she already was.

I don't have a problem with the in-universe reason she looks like this. I never have. But why does she need feminity at all? Why does she need it exaggerated the way it is?

As Lordbagardo says... It was meant to infiltrate, possible even seduce key personnel. This is certainly not unheard of through human history. If I remember correctly Munir Redfa defected from Iraq with a brand spanking new mig-21 after being "convinced" by a female israeli intelligence agent.

Possibly she was designed / created for this one specific role/mission.

It's actually one of the few places where it makes sense in games.


I actually tend to agree though... In other games it often have little to no place and is as immersion breaking to me.  In the case of EDI most of it makes sense, though I think they took it a wee bit too far.

Modifié par 78stonewobble, 11 février 2013 - 01:32 .

[ZLurps]

BleedingUranium wrote...

It's only immersion breaking to you because you choose to see it that way.

Bull****. Obviously, when about every person in your squad fall in model body type of A,B or C and especially enlarging cup size during trilogy of games we are entering in area where it comes more difficult to maintain suspension of disbelief.

Question where designers cross the line is actually wery good one and people designing their game, especially game like ME series should ask from themself.

Modifié par ZLurps, 11 février 2013 - 01:32 .

[LordBagardo]

To be fair, a woman's skill in combat and in wielding firearms doesn't have any correlation to the size of her breasts or buttocks or the prettiness of her face at all. If anything, using Miranda as an example, appearing more sexually attractive would actually be a huge bonus in that line of work.

[Indy_S]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Indy_S wrote...

Indy_S wrote...

Each squadmate was designed individually and when put side-by-side, I get repelled by the realisation that all of them are just somebody else's fantasy. That is not the effect the designers were after at all.

I made this quote nine hours ago and I feel it's just as relevant now.

Are you saying that people can't fantasize about smaller breasted women?

I'm disappointed. You're response to the quote the first time was more humourous.

BleedingUranium wrote...

Would you complain if most of them had A cups?

To both of your questions, no. I'm saying nothing of the like and I wouldn't complain in that situation. JBP linked to TvTropes earlier and I've got to come to the conclusion that these design decisions were designed to appeal. They aren't doing that to me. I get repelled by the idea that this is someone else's fantasy. My suspension of disbelief is broken by these boobs.

[BleedingUranium]

So, basically, you don't like characters having larger breasts simply because other people do?

[Indy_S]

78stonewobble wrote...

As Lordbagardo says... It was meant to infiltrate, possible even seduce key personnel. This is certainly not unheard of through human history. If I remember correctly Munir Redfa defected from Iraq with a brand spanking new mig-21 after being "convinced" by a female israeli intelligence agent.

Possibly she was designed / created for this one specific role/mission.

It's actually one of the few places where it makes sense in games.


I actually tend to agree though... In other games it often have little to no place and is as immersion breaking to me.  In the case of EDI most of it makes sense, though I think they took it a wee bit too far.

That's all the in-universe stuff which I said I'm fine with. My issue and those questions were for the non-lore design decision. A wee bit too far is a fair way of seeing it.

[Indy_S]

BleedingUranium wrote...

So, basically, you don't like characters having larger breasts simply because other people do?

No, I don't like them because I feel like they were designed to appeal to me and they didn't. Is that not a fair reason to dislike something?

[78stonewobble]

Indy_S wrote...

78stonewobble wrote...

As Lordbagardo says... It was meant to infiltrate, possible even seduce key personnel. This is certainly not unheard of through human history. If I remember correctly Munir Redfa defected from Iraq with a brand spanking new mig-21 after being "convinced" by a female israeli intelligence agent.

Possibly she was designed / created for this one specific role/mission.

It's actually one of the few places where it makes sense in games.


I actually tend to agree though... In other games it often have little to no place and is as immersion breaking to me.  In the case of EDI most of it makes sense, though I think they took it a wee bit too far.

That's all the in-universe stuff which I said I'm fine with. My issue and those questions were for the non-lore design decision. A wee bit too far is a fair way of seeing it.

Well I think eg. Samara would be a far more obvious target of design choice critique.

[Indy_S]

78stonewobble wrote...

Well I think eg. Samara would be a far more obvious target of design choice critique.

Probably, but EDI comes up more often.

[BleedingUranium]

Indy_S wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

So, basically, you don't like characters having larger breasts simply because other people do?

No, I don't like them because I feel like they were designed to appeal to me and they didn't. Is that not a fair reason to dislike something?

So any characters without large breasts we not designed to appeal to you?

[Indy_S]

BleedingUranium wrote...

So any characters without large breasts we not designed to appeal to you?

Where do you keep getting these conclusions? Every character is designed to appeal to the player.

[LordBagardo]

Indy_S wrote...

78stonewobble wrote...

As Lordbagardo says... It was meant to infiltrate, possible even seduce key personnel. This is certainly not unheard of through human history. If I remember correctly Munir Redfa defected from Iraq with a brand spanking new mig-21 after being "convinced" by a female israeli intelligence agent.

Possibly she was designed / created for this one specific role/mission.

It's actually one of the few places where it makes sense in games.


I actually tend to agree though... In other games it often have little to no place and is as immersion breaking to me.  In the case of EDI most of it makes sense, though I think they took it a wee bit too far.

That's all the in-universe stuff which I said I'm fine with. My issue and those questions were for the non-lore design decision. A wee bit too far is a fair way of seeing it.

Well, there are numerous reasons why BioWARE would have made EDI the way she is. Her body is very feminine, and this reflects her character - which up until now has been the very embodiment of the female agenda; a woman's voice. Furthermore, it is crucial that EDI needed a physical form, in order to add more variety to the squad's powers and loadouts. 

Another reason, while perhaps not justified, is that Mass Effect 3 was no doubt a more mainstream title compared to the other ones in the series - and thus needs to appeal more to a broader audience. Sex appeal is an excellent way to sell a game, and to keep people playing one, so it's in no doubt they took the opportunity to make another attractive squadmate when they could.

[BleedingUranium]

Indy_S wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

So any characters without large breasts we not designed to appeal to you?

Where do you keep getting these conclusions? Every character is designed to appeal to the player.

But that's what I've been saying! They're all designed to be attractive, so why pick on only some of them?

[Indy_S]

BleedingUranium wrote...

But that's what I've been saying! They're all designed to be attractive, so why pick on only some of them?

Because of the over-sexualisation that you seem to be missing every time this part of the conversation comes around.

[78stonewobble]

LordBagardo wrote...
Well, there are numerous reasons why BioWARE would have made EDI the way she is. Her body is very feminine, and this reflects her character - which up until now has been the very embodiment of the female agenda; a woman's voice. Furthermore, it is crucial that EDI needed a physical form, in order to add more variety to the squad's powers and loadouts. 

Another reason, while perhaps not justified, is that Mass Effect 3 was no doubt a more mainstream title compared to the other ones in the series - and thus needs to appeal more to a broader audience. Sex appeal is an excellent way to sell a game, and to keep people playing one, so it's in no doubt they took the opportunity to make another attractive squadmate when they could.

It's a fine line for sure.

Atleast for EDI slash Miranda I can partially headcannon explain the looks, but not the silly "outfits".

In these matters bioware has crossed my line a bit where it begins to detract from the other good stuff about the game(s).

Thankfully the rest of the game(s) are so good I can overlook it but... it would be a bad thing if too many people came to regard the games as only silly sex/romance games.

PS: Even as a 30 plus guy now... I don't mind orgies in my games... It should just be there for a valid reason. Not just because... orgies... Though I can't imagine right now a decent story where theres any reason to smack it up on the screen.

Modifié par 78stonewobble, 11 février 2013 - 02:01 .

[ZLurps]

LordBagardo wrote...

... snip...

Another reason, while perhaps not justified, is that Mass Effect 3 was no doubt a more mainstream title compared to the other ones in the series - and thus needs to appeal more to a broader audience. Sex appeal is an excellent way to sell a game, and to keep people playing one, so it's in no doubt they took the opportunity to make another attractive squadmate when they could.

It's not that simple.

What you gain is audience that doesn't have access to erotic content via other means, for example, I have understood that in the US lot of educational instutions have filters for sexual content. There are other reasons as well, but basically there are comics and other products that are designed to get around that filter.

However, older people don't have such limitations and concerning that average age of gamer is around 30 at these days when you get your content too cheesy for that audience you may alienate them.

I think last series where I saw they really tried to push "sex sells" aspect when rating were dropping like brick was new Battlestar Galactica. They even had orgies on Cylon ship, but it didn't work. People felt that it was just sad and ratings kept dropping.

Modifié par ZLurps, 11 février 2013 - 02:00 .