281 réponses à ce sujet

[BleedingUranium]

Indy_S wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

But that's what I've been saying! They're all designed to be attractive, so why pick on only some of them?

Because of the over-sexualisation that you seem to be missing every time this part of the conversation comes around.

I don't see how it's any more "over-sexualised" than, say Tali's very, very shaply figure. Why are breasts special compared to butts, legs, overall figures, or the prettiness of the face?

You're the one choosing to see the over-sexualisedness.

[ZLurps]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Indy_S wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

But that's what I've been saying! They're all designed to be attractive, so why pick on only some of them?

Because of the over-sexualisation that you seem to be missing every time this part of the conversation comes around.

I don't see how it's any more "over-sexualised" than, say Tali's very, very shaply figure. Why are breasts special compared to butts, legs, overall figures, or the prettiness of the face?

You're the one choosing to see the over-sexualisedness.

I challenged you for that earlier, now how about you participate in you know, forum discussion or take it to PM's?

[Indy_S]

It's the most common fetish. And to be honest, every character with big boobs also has a shapely butt, too. They are over-sexualised.

[BleedingUranium]

Saying "Bull****" is not not challenging me.

The fact that I don't see any over-sexualization proves that it's just a matter of perspective.

Indy_S wrote...

It's the most common fetish. And to be
honest, every character with big boobs also has a shapely butt, too.
They are over-sexualised.

That's only true if their proportions are not believable, and the all are in Mass Effect. There are a lot of people with bodies like the characters you're complaining about.

Modifié par BleedingUranium, 11 février 2013 - 02:07 .

[78stonewobble]

BleedingUranium wrote...
I don't see how it's any more "over-sexualised" than, say Tali's very, very shaply figure. Why are breasts special compared to butts, legs, overall figures, or the prettiness of the face?

You're the one choosing to see the over-sexualisedness.

Just a side comment. I do think you're correct about Tali's very shapely figure being designed to be sexy, but it's not quite as overt as the others. IMHO it was a very creative way to make her both alien and well sexy. Clever even.

Modifié par 78stonewobble, 11 février 2013 - 02:08 .

[Mentxi]

I happen to like EDI, I even like her body in a non-sexual way, really.

People make a big deal of EDI’S body... ok, It’s obviously sexualised, like ALL the female (and some male characters too) characters in ME universe (compare Samara’s outfit with the ones that MP characters wear). It makes sense to take Eva’s body, we all know that EDI is interested in humans and that (for some unknown reason) she considers herself female... tell me you wouldn’t do the same thing in her place.

[FOX216BC]

 

[BleedingUranium]

78stonewobble wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...
I don't see how it's any more "over-sexualised" than, say Tali's very, very shaply figure. Why are breasts special compared to butts, legs, overall figures, or the prettiness of the face?

You're the one choosing to see the over-sexualisedness.

Just a side comment. I do think you're correct about Tali's very shapely figure being designed to be sexy, but it's not quite as overt as the others. IMHO it was a very creative way to make her both alien and well sexy. Clever even.

I'm certainly not complaing about it, I don't think there's anything wrong with it. I was using it to point out that it's not just characters' breasts.

[Indy_S]

matter of perspective

When have I ever said otherwise? I have an issue with it, I discuss my issue with it. I don't claim it to be the 'only right viewpoint on the matter'. The fact that others have the same issue with it seems to verify it as a legitimate complaint. And since this is the closest thing to a 'character design' forum, it seems like the perfect place to bring it up.

Saying 'it's just a matter of perspective' doesn't change anything I've said.

[ZLurps]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Saying "Bull****" is not not challenging me.

The fact that I don't see any over-sexualization proves that it's just a matter of perspective.

Here is again what I actualy wrote.

ZLurps wrote...

Bull****. Obviously, when about every person in your squad fall in model body type of A,B or C and especially enlarging cup size during trilogy of games we are entering in area whereit comes more difficult to maintain suspension of disbelief.

Question where designers cross the line is actually wery good one and people designing their game, especially game like ME series should ask from themself.

BleedingUranium wrote...
The fact that I don't see any over-sexualization proves that it's just a matter of perspective.

There are helluva many misfortunate people out there trying to circumvent regulations set for erotic content trying to sell their porn films as art. Just a matter of perspective.


What Jean S posted about where to draw the line was good one indeed, but you choosed to reply with trolololol.

Modifié par ZLurps, 11 février 2013 - 02:12 .

[BleedingUranium]

ZLurps wrote...

There are helluva many misfortunate people out there trying to circumvent regulations set for erotic content trying to sell their porn films as art. Just a matter of perspective.


What Jean S posted about where to draw the line was good one indeed, but you choosed to reply with trolololol.

Are you saying you have a problem with nudity? Or sex? Two of the most natural things that exist?

[dorktainian]

we are born naked and we die naked. dont see a problem myself.

[LordBagardo]

ZLurps wrote...

LordBagardo wrote...

... snip...

Another reason, while perhaps not justified, is that Mass Effect 3 was no doubt a more mainstream title compared to the other ones in the series - and thus needs to appeal more to a broader audience. Sex appeal is an excellent way to sell a game, and to keep people playing one, so it's in no doubt they took the opportunity to make another attractive squadmate when they could.

It's not that simple.

What you gain is audience that doesn't have access to erotic content via other means, for example, I have understood that in the US lot of educational instutions have filters for sexual content. There are other reasons as well, but basically there are comics and other products that are designed to get around that filter.

However, older people don't have such limitations and concerning that average age of gamer is around 30 at these days when you get your content too cheesy for that audience you may alienate them.

I think last series where I saw they really tried to push "sex sells" aspect when rating were dropping like brick was new Battlestar Galactica. They even had orgies on Cylon ship, but it didn't work. People felt that it was just sad and ratings kept dropping.

It really doesn't matter if the strategy works or not, that's not up to me to decide. I was just stating that the "sex sells" mentality is a very common one amongst any form of designer, and that it's a very likely reason why EDI looks the way she does. 

I do actually agree with you on most of your points there though; I do begin to feel patronized or alienated if things become too forced or transparent.

[ZLurps]

BleedingUranium wrote...

ZLurps wrote...

There are helluva many misfortunate people out there trying to circumvent regulations set for erotic content trying to sell their porn films as art. Just a matter of perspective.


What Jean S posted about where to draw the line was good one indeed, but you choosed to reply with trolololol.

Are you saying you have a problem with nudity? Or sex? Two of the most natural things that exist?

Hell no, I like watching amateur porn sometimes. I also have sex sometimes, then what?

The thing is how things fit in their context. I'm approaching my mid age and I felt Samara's outfit silly, same goes for certain other things. I get nothing from fan service like this and instead of enhancing my game experience it feels only ad silly things in universe. Even my brother who is couple of years younger than I said how certain designs were embarassingly naive.

[Indy_S]

This seems to be straying off topic. Likely, the thread will be closed soon.

So, arial, I hate the body too. I think EDI would have benefited from a more gender-neutral body like your LOKI. That way, she could keep the platonic relationship she had with Joker in the second game rather than start a weird romantic one.

[ZLurps]

LordBagardo wrote...

ZLurps wrote...

LordBagardo wrote...

... snip...

Another reason, while perhaps not justified, is that Mass Effect 3 was no doubt a more mainstream title compared to the other ones in the series - and thus needs to appeal more to a broader audience. Sex appeal is an excellent way to sell a game, and to keep people playing one, so it's in no doubt they took the opportunity to make another attractive squadmate when they could.

It's not that simple.

What you gain is audience that doesn't have access to erotic content via other means, for example, I have understood that in the US lot of educational instutions have filters for sexual content. There are other reasons as well, but basically there are comics and other products that are designed to get around that filter.

However, older people don't have such limitations and concerning that average age of gamer is around 30 at these days when you get your content too cheesy for that audience you may alienate them.

I think last series where I saw they really tried to push "sex sells" aspect when rating were dropping like brick was new Battlestar Galactica. They even had orgies on Cylon ship, but it didn't work. People felt that it was just sad and ratings kept dropping.

It really doesn't matter if the strategy works or not, that's not up to me to decide. I was just stating that the "sex sells" mentality is a very common one amongst any form of designer, and that it's a very likely reason why EDI looks the way she does. 

I do actually agree with you on most of your points there though; I do begin to feel patronized or alienated if things become too forced or transparent.

Yeah, I got that  and I meant my post more in general just because of that. What I know from ME3's design process, there were... perhaps decisions made by someone who is good example of this old B-movie mentality.

There were BTW surprisingly many comments made about EDI's desing and how they felt it was patronasing when pictures from artbook leaked to net.

Modifié par ZLurps, 11 février 2013 - 02:49 .

[JBPBRC]

ZLurps wrote...


I think last series where I saw they really tried to push "sex sells" aspect when rating were dropping like brick was new Battlestar Galactica. They even had orgies on Cylon ship, but it didn't work. People felt that it was just sad and ratings kept dropping.

...Yeah. That series went downhill quick.

[78stonewobble]

Still. There are valid ingame and logical arguments that mostly explains why EDI looks as she does.

Fanservice or over sexualised it might be, but with edi and miranda it mostly fits. Storywise and logically.

Imho they were taken a bit too far in some of the details and the outfits but it is not as disruptive or obvious as eg. Samara.

EDIT and PS:

The religious aspects was a much bigger turn off (the tv) for me in bsg than any of the "sex sells". Though I kinda accepted that as well on the premises for that universe.

Modifié par 78stonewobble, 11 février 2013 - 02:44 .

[ZLurps]

Indy_S wrote...

This seems to be straying off topic. Likely, the thread will be closed soon.

So, arial, I hate the body too. I think EDI would have benefited from a more gender-neutral body like your LOKI. That way, she could keep the platonic relationship she had with Joker in the second game rather than start a weird romantic one.

Again, the question you asked about where to draw the line was very good one. You can't discuss about what breaks immersion in [insert produrt here] without exploring the context.

If your product is power fantasy, you can have your characters to have supermodel bodies, have stereotype personalities and have them fight in their bikinis. It works if settings is established that way.

Then if you have different kind of product and your audience have different kind of expectations, details come very important and taking enough steps to wrong direction start to make characters, and via them, the whole universe unplausible.


Say, you wrote about how you felt those perfect posterios of major NPC cast were example of over sexualisation. Now just think of this. They are trained soldiers in one way or another. They have every reason to keep themself in shape.

I have worked with female atheletes and no matter what, people who exercise will look good, no matter what. Do they flaunt it? That depends of every individual personality. Would they wear something like Ash's uniform on Normandy or something that Samara wears? Hell no.

So it also matters a lot how things are presented.

[hau101]

 I actually love her design. Just her face looks robotic, futuristic, attractive, yet human, as it's probably intended:



Her figure isn't overly sexualized to me. There are much, MUCH more female robot concepts out there that are just rediculous or plain ugly. The model serves to materialize EDI as well as help her experience life as a "human." It's also supposed to mirror another female character in-game.

Maybe the reason people are bothered by it is her silhouhette matches a nude woman, and there are no clear "clothing." You see that sleek feminine body and the curves but the texturing is bare and smooth. 

[ZLurps]

78stonewobble wrote...

Still. There are valid ingame and logical arguments that mostly explains why EDI looks as she does.

Fanservice or over sexualised it might be, but with edi and miranda it mostly fits. Storywise and logically.

Imho they were taken a bit too far in some of the details and the outfits but it is not as disruptive or obvious as eg. Samara.

EDIT and PS:

The religious aspects was a much bigger turn off (the tv) for me in bsg than any of the "sex sells". Though I kinda accepted that as well on the premises for that universe.

The point I was trying to make: If you series doesn't fly, you can't save it by taking "Seven of Nine" to extremes anymore at these days.

With budget like it takes to produce something like BSG, it doesn't matter what one or two people on some messageboard think. It's plain simple if masses will keep watching or if they don't. In BSG's case, they didn't.

[MissOuJ]

BleedingUranium wrote...

ZLurps wrote...

There are helluva many misfortunate people out there trying to circumvent regulations set for erotic content trying to sell their porn films as art. Just a matter of perspective.


What Jean S posted about where to draw the line was good one indeed, but you choosed to reply with trolololol.

Are you saying you have a problem with nudity? Or sex? Two of the most natural things that exist?

Problem with how nudity or sex is represented =/= problem with nudity or sex in general. Nudity and sex are the most natural things in the world, but gender and body representation in media in general and gaming in particular? Not so much.

Indy_S wrote...

It's the most common fetish. And to be
honest, every character with big boobs also has a shapely butt, too. They are over-sexualised.

True. It's also a pretty disturbing fetish, as explained in detail here. EDI's design own a lot to those images, which is pretty disturbing. I actually like her character, but her character design is just really problematic.

Indy_S wrote...

So,arial, I hate the body too. I think EDI would have benefited from a more gender-neutral body like your LOKI. That way, she could keep the platonic relationship she had with Joker in the second game rather than start a weird romantic one.

I would have also liked a bit more gender neutral body for her (and I don't think that would have made her romance with Joker impossible either - genderqueer people date/have sex too), but on the other hand it's not her body's femininity that's the problem - it's how it's represented. Why not, for example, have EDI dressed in an approximation of Alliance slacks? Or something else more appropriate? In stead the designers decided to let her run around pretty much naked and gave her a ****** of all things. Other things apparently high on the designers' list of "stuff that needs to be rendered in detail" included... various Banshees' anatomical features, so, good for them [/sarcasm].

Modifié par MissOuJ, 11 février 2013 - 03:00 .

[hau101]

IMO we should be complaining more about Benezia's bust, especially for her age.

[ZLurps]

hau101 wrote...

IMO we should be complaining more about Benezia's bust, especially for her age.

How Benezia's bust for example, make anything else any better than it is?

[78stonewobble]

ZLurps wrote...
The point I was trying to make: If you series doesn't fly, you can't save it by taking "Seven of Nine" to extremes anymore at these days.

With budget like it takes to produce something like BSG, it doesn't matter what one or two people on some messageboard think. It's plain simple if masses will keep watching or if they don't. In BSG's case, they didn't.

Ewrgh... seven of nine. Sure she was hawt... but definately in the ridiculousness category. Again a place where it detracted from what is actually an interesting character / story.

But otherwise I agree. It cannot fix underlying weaknesses in the "material".