228 réponses à ce sujet

[Obadiah]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

2.  Where does TIM or the Cerberus Manifesto ever say that humanity is inherently superior to aliens?

The Illusive Man says this kind of thing every time you speak to him in ME3. His entire plan revolves around that belief.

I don't think I remember TIM saying humanity is superior, but clearly he was trying to elevate humanity in power over all other races. TIM's philosophy is far more in line with the Tera Firma Earth-first dominate-all-others crowd, than the Ashley, "humanity needs to look out for ourselves, can't completely trust others" attitude. I believe TIM thought as you say, though.

Over the course of the game, pretty much everything Ashley said about human/alien relations turns out to be correct:
- Shep can't trust Cerberus.
- In ME3, the Council is willing to sick the the humans (the dog) at the bear (the Reapers).

Modifié par Obadiah, 11 février 2013 - 03:20 .

[nrobbiec]

I don't hate Ashley, I just never spoke to her and left her on Virmire.

[Steelcan]

CynicalShep wrote...

She's no more racist than Tali is a fascist.

. She's xenophobic, not racist.

[hau101]

We're too idealistic in who we like to meet/befriend. Or simply narrow-minded.

[CynicalShep]

Steelcan wrote...

CynicalShep wrote...

She's no more racist than Tali is a fascist.

. She's xenophobic, not racist.

And Tali isn't fascist but some other Quarian admirals might be

[78stonewobble]

Steelcan wrote...

CynicalShep wrote...

She's no more racist than Tali is a fascist.

. She's xenophobic, not racist.

Well actually our "anti racism" laws around here has been updated to include discrimination against people of different sexuality, handicaps, gender, age, intelligence and what not.

Since it's basically the same principle.


EDIT: Also the geth are actually homogeneus enough to make a generalisation. To a degree because we learn about the heretics/true geth in me2, but prior to that were little to no distinction between indivdual geth.

Disliking the geth (not all who are not quarians) is quite understandable, to a degree, considering their past.

PS: I blame bioware for the restarting the Quarian/Geth conflict... because my speech in me2 was just that good.

PPS: The Quarians have technically been at war since the morning war. Actually... Even more at war than eg. Korea ...

Modifié par 78stonewobble, 11 février 2013 - 03:49 .

[Steelcan]

CynicalShep wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

CynicalShep wrote...

She's no more racist than Tali is a fascist.

. She's xenophobic, not racist.

And Tali isn't fascist but some other Quarian admirals might be

. Fascist?  I don't think so.  Militaristic in times of war =\\= fascist.

[fiendishchicken]

^ The Quarians are militarists plain and simple Steelcan. After repeatedly telling them not to go to war, to find a way to make peace with the Geth, they do so anyway. 

Modifié par fiendishchicken, 11 février 2013 - 03:32 .

[Argolas]

Steelcan wrote...

CynicalShep wrote...

She's no more racist than Tali is a fascist.

. She's xenophobic, not racist.

Maybe a little, but not enough to prevent her from thinking of Tali like her sister.

Yes, she is not a big Alien fan, we all understood that, but only to an extend I wouldn't blame her for. I said this before: Ashley supports neither Cerberus nor Terra Firma.

[CynicalShep]

Steelcan wrote...

CynicalShep wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

CynicalShep wrote...

She's no more racist than Tali is a fascist.

. She's xenophobic, not racist.

And Tali isn't fascist but some other Quarian admirals might be

. Fascist?  I don't think so.  Militaristic in times of war == fascist.

"Fascist" might have been a stretch but they are authoritarian to say the least. Dictatorship is another term that comes to mind. The single fact that one narrow-minded admiral is in full control of the whole nation is proof. But I digress, we're going off-topic

[Steelcan]

fiendishchicken wrote...

^ The Quarians are militarists plain and simple Steelcan. After repeatedly telling them not to go to war, to find a way to make peace with the Geth, they do so anyway. 

. Only in ME3, while the galaxy is burning.  Tali makes it clear in ME1/2 that the quarians are democratic in practice

[Argolas]

CynicalShep wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

CynicalShep wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

CynicalShep wrote...

She's no more racist than Tali is a fascist.

. She's xenophobic, not racist.

And Tali isn't fascist but some other Quarian admirals might be

. Fascist?  I don't think so.  Militaristic in times of war == fascist.

"Fascist" might have been a stretch but they are authoritarian to say the least. Dictatorship is another term that comes to mind. The single fact that one narrow-minded admiral is in full control of the whole nation is proof. But I digress, we're going off-topic

Just one more thought. I think there are about 17 million Quarians, that's not even twice the population of Tokio- their entire race. If all humans but 17 million were killed, do you think we still had a democracy?

[fiendishchicken]

I've been trying to stay out of these character debate forums. They don't lead anywhere except misery.

Let's just say that I hate Ashley Williams with the intense, impassioned fire of a thousand and one burning suns going supernova at once.

My favorite line in the trilogy from her is: "I hope the Reapers send you to hell!" And then destroying the Reapers in the end.

But I respect her fans, as long as they don't go off on my character.

Notice I didn't insult Ashley at all. I simply stated that I hate her, and my opinion won't ever change. I also listed my favorite quote from her.

[CynicalShep]

Argolas wrote...

CynicalShep wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

CynicalShep wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

CynicalShep wrote...

She's no more racist than Tali is a fascist.

. She's xenophobic, not racist.

And Tali isn't fascist but some other Quarian admirals might be

. Fascist?  I don't think so.  Militaristic in times of war == fascist.

"Fascist" might have been a stretch but they are authoritarian to say the least. Dictatorship is another term that comes to mind. The single fact that one narrow-minded admiral is in full control of the whole nation is proof. But I digress, we're going off-topic

Just one more thought. I think there are about 17 million Quarians, that's not even twice the population of Tokio- their entire race. If all humans but 17 million were killed, do you think we still had a democracy?

Tbh, I actually don't mind dictatorship if the leader is competent. Risking to sound really bad I'll say that more often than not the masses have no idea what's good for them. And the population really has nothing to do with it. Someone might assume leadership in the very aftermath of losing 99% of the population but that would change in the long run. 

[Mouton_Alpha]

Argolas wrote...

Just one more thought. I think there are about 17 million Quarians, that's not even twice the population of Tokio- their entire race. If all humans but 17 million were killed, do you think we still had a democracy?

Why not? Democracy works better on smaller scale.

[Steelcan]

CynicalShep wrote...

Tbh, I actually don't mind dictatorship if the leader is competent. Risking to sound really bad I'll say that more often than not the masses have no idea what's good for them. And the population really has nothing to do with it. Someone might assume leadership in the very aftermath of losing 99% of the population but that would change in the long run. 

. The quarians did change.  ME1, Tali "In practice we are democratic, but in theory we are still under military jurisdiction"

[L2 Sentinel]

Tali's writer was accused of making her too perfect. His counterargument was that her flaw is that she is racist. Her writer called her racist near the 3:45 minute mark.

Most of the reasons people give for hating Ashley and Kaidan can also be applied to other characters.

Modifié par Rauhel, 11 février 2013 - 03:55 .

[CynicalShep]

Steelcan wrote...

CynicalShep wrote...

Tbh, I actually don't mind dictatorship if the leader is competent. Risking to sound really bad I'll say that more often than not the masses have no idea what's good for them. And the population really has nothing to do with it. Someone might assume leadership in the very aftermath of losing 99% of the population but that would change in the long run. 

. The quarians did change.  ME1, Tali "In practice we are democratic, but in theory we are still under military jurisdiction"

It was the way around in ME3. In practice they were democrats with a failsafe against abuse of power. In ME3 that's been swept under the carpet. 

[Auld Wulf]

I got massive racist vibes from her. To me, she came over as having the White Supremacist kind of mindset - but instead of being white, it was human. That she doesn't work for Cerberus already and that she isn't in complete support of them is just an annoying contradiction considering her character. So she's mentally (and hypocritically) inconsistent and seriously xenophobic.

I wouldn't call her cautious, to be honest. Her unashamed xenophobia made my skin crawl.

[Iakus]

Auld Wulf wrote...

I got massive racist vibes from her. To me, she came over as having the White Supremacist kind of mindset - but instead of being white, it was human. That she doesn't work for Cerberus already and that she isn't in complete support of them is just an annoying contradiction considering her character. So she's mentally (and hypocritically) inconsistent and seriously xenophobic.

I wouldn't call her cautious, to be honest. Her unashamed xenophobia made my skin crawl.

Clearly you didn't take her to the Terra Firma rally..

[Argolas]

Auld Wulf wrote...

I got massive racist vibes from her. To me, she came over as having the White Supremacist kind of mindset - but instead of being white, it was human. That she doesn't work for Cerberus already and that she isn't in complete support of them is just an annoying contradiction considering her character. So she's mentally (and hypocritically) inconsistent and seriously xenophobic.

I wouldn't call her cautious, to be honest. Her unashamed xenophobia made my skin crawl.

You just don't understand the Ashley character. At no point in the game she even suggests that she might think humans should rule over aliens. She cooperates with aliens and as I said, she thinks of Tali (who is also an alien) as her sister.

As most other characters in Shepard's crew, Ashley (except maybe the ME3 version) is a good person. Your beloved Reapers are a perfect example of racism by the way: Viewing your own kind as perfection, ruling over other races and turning them into your own while thinking you are doing them a favour.

[mr.brightside4u]

I'm not necessarily an Ash-Hater, but she's way too soldier-like. She has this die for the Alliance attiude and I hate such people. And while I do think you can argue about Ash not being a racist, you can't denie her negative feelings for aliens, and the " Humanity should stand alone " thinking. She doesn't want to rule over aliens, but she would rather avoid them, which is at least in my book not a desirable, but just a dumb thougt.

Modifié par mr.brightside4u, 11 février 2013 - 04:26 .

[Paladin14]

mr.brightside4u wrote...

I'm not necessarily an Ash-Hater, but she's way too soldier-like. She has this die for the Alliance attiude and I hate such people. And while I do think you can argue about Ash not being a racist, you can't denie her negative feelings for aliens, and the " Humanity should stand alone " thinking. She doesn't want to rule over aliens, but she would rather avoid them, which is at least in my book not a desirable, but just a dumb thougt.

I serve in the Military and I would die for my country, is that a bad thing?

Modifié par Paladin14, 11 février 2013 - 04:32 .

[Mouton_Alpha]

Paladin14 wrote...

mr.brightside4u wrote...

I'm not necessarily an Ash-Hater, but she's way too soldier-like. She has this die for the Alliance attiude and I hate such people. And while I do think you can argue about Ash not being a racist, you can't denie her negative feelings for aliens, and the " Humanity should stand alone " thinking. She doesn't want to rule over aliens, but she would rather avoid them, which is at least in my book not a desirable, but just a dumb thougt.

I serve in the Military and I would die for my country, is that a bad thing?

"The Guardian" comments' section says "yes".