324 réponses à ce sujet

[spotlessvoid]

CronoDragoon wrote...

PainCakesx wrote...
This is why it annoys the hell out of me when people tell me that I or others are acting "entitled" when we want the endings corrected. If BioWare handed me a copy of ME3 out of good will for free, then I would be. But I paid for the game, and I have every right to voice my disapproval.

Paying for the game entitles you to nothing but the opportunity to play it. You have every right to voice your disapproval of it, but that is fundamentally different than expecting the game to be changed because of your disapproval.

Thats exactly how to run a succesful business

[Clayless]

PainCakesx wrote...

Robosexual wrote...

A more accurate analogy would be if you walk into a car dealership and buy a blue car, then ask them to paint it a different colour because you don't like blue, they offer to extend your warranty for free, and then you complain about them not painting your car a different colour.

The problem is subjective in other words yet you're still demanding they "fix" it.

Cute attempt at minimizing and dismissing people dissatisfied with the ending, but the problems with the endings are hardly comparable to "I don't like the color."

But they are comparable to it being subjective, which was the point.

[PainCakesx]

CronoDragoon wrote...

PainCakesx wrote...
This is why it annoys the hell out of me when people tell me that I or others are acting "entitled" when we want the endings corrected. If BioWare handed me a copy of ME3 out of good will for free, then I would be. But I paid for the game, and I have every right to voice my disapproval.

Paying for the game entitles you to nothing but the opportunity to play it. You have every right to voice your disapproval of it, but that is fundamentally different than expecting the game to be changed because of your disapproval.

When did I say I expect it?

When I buy a meal that is unsatisfactory, I may ask for them to fix it. If they refuse, then I simply pack up and leave, never to spend another dime there.

If that is what BioWare wants, then so be it. I remain because I respect BioWare enough to give them a chance to make things right. 

[CronoDragoon]

spotlessvoid wrote...

Thats exactly how to run a succesful business

If every game company failed because they didn't alter an already-released game based on fan desire, exactly how many game companies do you believe would exist?

Nevermind the fact that BW has altered an already-released game based on fan desire.

[spotlessvoid]

Maybe we should just shut the **** and happily accept what Bioware is kind enough to give us? And by give I mean sell.

[Almostfaceman]

Robosexual wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

Robosexual wrote...

Well, by the looks of it with Seth Green and Kaidan, there's squadmate dialogue.

We know very little about the DLC but even from the stuff we do know it shows they're listening. I don't understand how you can just dismiss that.

I'll give you an analogy. I walk into a car dealership with a car I just bought from them. The headlights don't work. I ask them to fix it under the warranty. It comes back, and they've given it an oil change and rotated the tires. So, they heard there was a problem, they just didn't fix the actual problem. 

That's how we can dismiss that.

A more accurate analogy would be if you walk into a car dealership and buy a blue car, then ask them to paint it a different colour because you don't like blue, they offer to extend your warranty for free, and then you complain about them not painting your car a different colour.

The problem is subjective in other words yet you're still demanding they "fix" it.

A cars' job is to get me from point A to point B safely. No light, at night it's not safe. A game's job is to deliver on what it's advertised to be and entertain me. The game is broke. I bought it to entertain me and they failed to deliver. There's not a wide variety of endings like, say, Mass Effect 2. That's not subjective. I've asked for specifics and I expected a broad spectrum of endings based on that's what they've delivered in the past and how they marketed the game. It's their job to meet my expectations. I'm the customer. It's their obligation, if they want to keep me as a customer, to fix the problem. Now, you as another customer, can afford to insult my customer satisfaction. You've got nothing invested in the customer/business dynamic. But Bioware does. What I am interested in is the dynamic between myself and Bioware, not myself and you. If you don't get it, I lose no sleep. If Bioware doesn't get it, they lose my monies. 

[PainCakesx]

Robosexual wrote...

PainCakesx wrote...

Robosexual wrote...

A more accurate analogy would be if you walk into a car dealership and buy a blue car, then ask them to paint it a different colour because you don't like blue, they offer to extend your warranty for free, and then you complain about them not painting your car a different colour.

The problem is subjective in other words yet you're still demanding they "fix" it.

Cute attempt at minimizing and dismissing people dissatisfied with the ending, but the problems with the endings are hardly comparable to "I don't like the color."

But they are comparable to it being subjective, which was the point.

Of course the analogy isn't 100%, it never is. But the implication your post gives off is that the anger at the ending is equivalent to not liking the color of a car - in other words, entirely trivial. 

With writing, movies, art etc., there are reasonable expectations as to what a story will deliver. The artist has every right to not deliver that, but they can expect a certain degree of backlash. And if they choose to ignore that backlash, they will soon find it harder to sell their next work. 

Alienating your customer base has never been a good business strategy.

Modifié par PainCakesx, 12 février 2013 - 08:10 .

[Clayless]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Robosexual wrote...
By the looks of it they are listening to us. They're just not listening to the people that have "no desire to play the game".

I think a more accurate representation of the situation is that they've listened to everyone - those who liked the endings and those who didn't - regarding the endings, and the EC was their answer. At this point it's no longer a case of them not listening, but rather a case of the issue has been decided for them, one way or another. If I claimed "I loved the endings but would like to see THIS" then I'd get the same response as someone who said "I hate the endings and want to see THIS".

Yeah that would be more accurate.

I just find it weird that people say they aren't listening or question what they're listening to. Even Omega had a myriad of things fans asked for (more Omega, more Aria, class based inturrupts etc) and by the looks of it this next DLC will have squad dialogue and (though this is an assumption based on squad dialogue, the complaints about Omega and the "we're listening" statements) more story in relation to combat.

[spotlessvoid]

CronoDragoon wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

Thats exactly how to run a succesful business

If every game company failed because they didn't alter an already-released game based on fan desire, exactly how many game companies do you believe would exist?

Nevermind the fact that BW has altered an already-released game based on fan desire.

How many companies failed because they started to suck? Because thats still how many people feel about them now. 

[PainCakesx]

CronoDragoon wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

Thats exactly how to run a succesful business

If every game company failed because they didn't alter an already-released game based on fan desire, exactly how many game companies do you believe would exist?

Nevermind the fact that BW has altered an already-released game based on fan desire.

If every game company regularly released games with an ending inciting backlash comparable to ME3?

Not many. 

[Almostfaceman]

spotlessvoid wrote...

Maybe we should just shut the **** and happily accept what Bioware is kind enough to give us? And by give I mean sell.

That's right. Shut up. And hey, if you must do it for Bioware, because they made some customers happy, logic dictates you do that for everything else you buy. Buy a cellular service and the reception is crappy in your area? Shut up, it works for the guy in the apartment next to ya. Buy chocolate icecream and they give you vanilla? Shut up, 'cause that guy next to you is just happy they remembered to give him ice cream at all. 

[Clayless]

Almostfaceman wrote...

Robosexual wrote...

A more accurate analogy would be if you walk into a car dealership and buy a blue car, then ask them to paint it a different colour because you don't like blue, they offer to extend your warranty for free, and then you complain about them not painting your car a different colour.

The problem is subjective in other words yet you're still demanding they "fix" it.

A cars' job is to get me from point A to point B safely. No light, at night it's not safe. A game's job is to deliver on what it's advertised to be and entertain me. The game is broke. I bought it to entertain me and they failed to deliver. There's not a wide variety of endings like, say, Mass Effect 2. That's not subjective. I've asked for specifics and I expected a broad spectrum of endings based on that's what they've delivered in the past and how they marketed the game. It's their job to meet my expectations. I'm the customer. It's their obligation, if they want to keep me as a customer, to fix the problem. Now, you as another customer, can afford to insult my customer satisfaction. You've got nothing invested in the customer/business dynamic. But Bioware does. What I am interested in is the dynamic between myself and Bioware, not myself and you. If you don't get it, I lose no sleep. If Bioware doesn't get it, they lose my monies. 

This is unsettling. Do you understand the difference between an actual problem (like broken headlights) and a subjective problem (like not being entertained)?

[Almostfaceman]

Robosexual wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

Robosexual wrote...

A more accurate analogy would be if you walk into a car dealership and buy a blue car, then ask them to paint it a different colour because you don't like blue, they offer to extend your warranty for free, and then you complain about them not painting your car a different colour.

The problem is subjective in other words yet you're still demanding they "fix" it.

A cars' job is to get me from point A to point B safely. No light, at night it's not safe. A game's job is to deliver on what it's advertised to be and entertain me. The game is broke. I bought it to entertain me and they failed to deliver. There's not a wide variety of endings like, say, Mass Effect 2. That's not subjective. I've asked for specifics and I expected a broad spectrum of endings based on that's what they've delivered in the past and how they marketed the game. It's their job to meet my expectations. I'm the customer. It's their obligation, if they want to keep me as a customer, to fix the problem. Now, you as another customer, can afford to insult my customer satisfaction. You've got nothing invested in the customer/business dynamic. But Bioware does. What I am interested in is the dynamic between myself and Bioware, not myself and you. If you don't get it, I lose no sleep. If Bioware doesn't get it, they lose my monies. 

This is unsettling. Do you understand the difference between an actual problem (like broken headlights) and a subjective problem (like not being entertained)?

Do you understand that both have a job and both can fail at it? Bioware goes into this knowing what their job is and promoting their product accordingly. Do you get the point or not? A company failed a customer on delivering a product the customer expects. You're saying because you're a happy customer, I need to shut my pie hole. Not gonna happen. They didn't fix the problem. 

Now do you wanna keep going on about subjective versus a broken headlight, which isn't the point? Or do you want to get my point?

Modifié par Almostfaceman, 12 février 2013 - 08:19 .

[Clayless]

Almostfaceman wrote...

Do you understand that both have a job and both can fail at it? Bioware goes into this knowing what their job is and promoting their product accordingly. Do you get the point or not? A company failed a customer on delivering a product the customer expects.

So you expected a Mass Effect game and got one, so they failed?

You're saying because you're a happy customer, I need to shut my pie hole. Not gonna happen. They didn't fix the problem.

When? And what problem?

Now do you wanna keep going on about subjective versus a broken headlight, which isn't the point? Or do you want to get my point?

If your point is "subjective being mistaking for fact" then it seems like my analogy is correct.

[CronoDragoon]

PainCakesx wrote...

If every game company regularly released games with an ending inciting backlash comparable to ME3?

Not many. 

It's one game.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 12 février 2013 - 08:24 .

[PainCakesx]

Robosexual wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

Do you understand that both have a job and both can fail at it? Bioware goes into this knowing what their job is and promoting their product accordingly. Do you get the point or not? A company failed a customer on delivering a product the customer expects.

So you expected a Mass Effect game and got one, so they failed?

You're saying because you're a happy customer, I need to shut my pie hole. Not gonna happen. They didn't fix the problem.

When? And what problem?

Now do you wanna keep going on about subjective versus a broken headlight, which isn't the point? Or do you want to get my point?

If your point is "subjective being mistaking for fact" then it seems like my analogy is correct.

Again, you diminish what people are saying.

Look at the various pre-release statements made by BioWare, and look at the final product. *Hint* The Better Business Bureau declared what BioWare did to be unethical.

[CronoDragoon]

PainCakesx wrote...
When did I say I expect it?

When I buy a meal that is unsatisfactory, I may ask for them to fix it. If they refuse, then I simply pack up and leave, never to spend another dime there.

That isn't what you are doing. What you are doing is comparable to continuing to visit the restaurant to criticize it even after they have told you they aren't going to try and fix your meal a second time.

If that is what BioWare wants, then so be it. I remain because I respect BioWare enough to give them a chance to make things right. 

This is where expectation comes in. The implication here is that your respect for BioWare hinges on their willingness to change the endings for a second time.

[PainCakesx]

CronoDragoon wrote...

PainCakesx wrote...
When did I say I expect it?

When I buy a meal that is unsatisfactory, I may ask for them to fix it. If they refuse, then I simply pack up and leave, never to spend another dime there.

That isn't what you are doing. What you are doing is comparable to continuing to visit the restaurant to criticize it even after they have told you they aren't going to try and fix your meal a second time.

If that is what BioWare wants, then so be it. I remain because I respect BioWare enough to give them a chance to make things right. 

This is where expectation comes in. The implication here is that your respect for BioWare hinges on their willingness to change the endings for a second time.

If they choose to straight up ignore a large percentage of their customer base?

Yes, you're right. My respect would be diminished. As I'm sure would be the case for many.

[Nerevar-as]

CronoDragoon wrote...

PainCakesx wrote...

If every game company regularly released games with an ending inciting backlash comparable to ME3?

Not many. 

It's one game.

It´s the end of several years of waiting, 100+ hours of gaming, and they screwed up royally in the last 5 minutes. Had they written a good, or even normal ending, most threads would be about how great the saga was.

[Clayless]

PainCakesx wrote...

Again, you diminish what people are saying.

Look at the various pre-release statements made by BioWare, and look at the final product. *Hint* The Better Business Bureau declared what BioWare did to be unethical.

And my countries Advertising Standards Authority disagreed with the BBB.

I doubt the would disagree on something like broken headlights though.

[PainCakesx]

Nerevar-as wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

PainCakesx wrote...

If every game company regularly released games with an ending inciting backlash comparable to ME3?

Not many. 

It's one game.

It´s the end of several years of waiting, 100+ hours of gaming, and they screwed up royally in the last 5 minutes. Had they written a good, or even normal ending, most threads would be about how great the saga was.

Exactly. It's easy for people who liked the endings to assume that we just want something to hate on.

That is ignorant and far from the truth. If the endings were on par with the other 2, or even just slightly worse, I'd be fine. 

It's the degree of its failure, to myself at least, that makes this such an issue.

[wright1978]

Nerevar-as wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

PainCakesx wrote...

If every game company regularly released games with an ending inciting backlash comparable to ME3?

Not many. 

It's one game.

It´s the end of several years of waiting, 100+ hours of gaming, and they screwed up royally in the last 5 minutes. Had they written a good, or even normal ending, most threads would be about how great the saga was.

Very true

[PainCakesx]

Robosexual wrote...

PainCakesx wrote...

Again, you diminish what people are saying.

Look at the various pre-release statements made by BioWare, and look at the final product. *Hint* The Better Business Bureau declared what BioWare did to be unethical.

And my countries Advertising Standards Authority disagreed with the BBB.

I doubt the would disagree on something like broken headlights though.

Your point being? 

It doesn't change the fact that it isn't just some fringe group that finds BioWare's final product to have been misrepresented by the advertising. The expectations that they themselves built up. 

The BBB is hardly a fringe organization, and while their opinion isn't definitive, the very fact that they agree that BioWare's marketing practices were unsound directly goes against notions that this is all just fueled by a few angry children.

There are very real and very valid arguments to be made. Ignoring them is a mistake. 

Modifié par PainCakesx, 12 février 2013 - 08:36 .

[spotlessvoid]

This guys an idiot. I'm done.

[CronoDragoon]

PainCakesx wrote...

If they choose to straight up ignore a large percentage of their customer base?

Yes, you're right. My respect would be diminished. As I'm sure would be the case for many.

They haven't ignored them. They've listened to your complaints, fixed some, stood by others. If your respect is truly diminished enough by them standing by things a lot of fans don't like, then feel free to go, and I don't mean that disrespectfully, but in the same sense that I stopped playing Final Fantasy XI because it was clear they didn't see the future of the game as I did.