324 réponses à ce sujet

[Clayless]

PainCakesx wrote...

Robosexual wrote...

And my countries Advertising Standards Authority disagreed with the BBB.

I doubt the would disagree on something like broken headlights though.

Your point being? 

It doesn't change the fact that it isn't just some fringe group that finds BioWare's final product to have been misrepresented by the advertising. The expectations that they themselves built up. 

The BBB is hardly a fringe organization, and while their opinion isn't definitive, the very fast that they agree that BioWare's marketing practices were unsound directly goes against notions that this is all just fueled by a few angry children.

There are very real and very valid arguments to be made. Ignoring them is a mistake. 

My point being that his complaints are subjective, taking us all the way back to how his analogy about them "fixing" ME3 is like fixing broken headlights, when a more accurate analogy would be them "fixing" the colour of the car. Youe point about the BBB is countered by mine about the ASA. All it shows is it's subjective like I've been saying, and not actually broken like he has.

Modifié par Robosexual, 12 février 2013 - 08:38 .

[PainCakesx]

CronoDragoon wrote...

PainCakesx wrote...

If they choose to straight up ignore a large percentage of their customer base?

Yes, you're right. My respect would be diminished. As I'm sure would be the case for many.

They haven't ignored them. They've listened to your complaints, fixed some, stood by others. If your respect is truly diminished enough by them standing by things a lot of fans don't like, then feel free to go, and I don't mean that disrespectfully, but in the same sense that I stopped playing Final Fantasy XI because it was clear they didn't see the future of the game as I did.

Judging but the continued backlash not only here, but everywhere, they haven't listened and addressed nearly enough.

[spotlessvoid]

The EC didn't fix anything. The Normandy pick up scene? Retarded. The only "fix"was clarifying the relays didn't explode.
Oooooohhhhh, slide shows. Amazing stuff. The EC expanded on nothing. "Things exist"

No closure. Hell, Shepard is still shown in rubble after the shiny picture show. Wtf?

The EC was the ABSOLUTE BARE MINIMUM they felt they could get away with doing to stop the bleeding.

What a joke

[CronoDragoon]

Nerevar-as wrote...

It´s the end of several years of
waiting, 100+ hours of gaming, and they screwed up royally in the last 5
minutes. Had they written a good, or even normal ending, most threads
would be about how great the saga was.

Actually, I think most threads would still be complaining, just about other things, because people like you and Pain that would be satisfied if the endings were different wouldn't post nearly as many positive threads about the game as other people would post negative threads. That's just the nature of forums. Remember when Mass Effect 2 was released, for example?

PainCakesx wrote...
Exactly. It's easy for people who liked the endings to assume that we just want something to hate on.

That is ignorant and far from the truth. If the endings were on par with the other 2, or even just slightly worse, I'd be fine. 

It's the degree of its failure, to myself at least, that makes this such an issue.

I don't assume you just want something to hate on. Moreoever, what makes you think I like the endings? I am neutral on them in the sense that some stuff I really like and some stuff I really don't. But I am able to criticize the product and the company's choices without implicit demands and obligations. Do you somehow think that saying you will abandon BioWare if they don't change the endings makes them more likely to change them? That's not obvious to me. I hope they never do an ending like this again. But that's clear in my criticisms and not my projections on the collapse of BioWare and the indifference of its employees.

[PainCakesx]

Robosexual wrote...

PainCakesx wrote...

Robosexual wrote...

And my countries Advertising Standards Authority disagreed with the BBB.

I doubt the would disagree on something like broken headlights though.

Your point being? 

It doesn't change the fact that it isn't just some fringe group that finds BioWare's final product to have been misrepresented by the advertising. The expectations that they themselves built up. 

The BBB is hardly a fringe organization, and while their opinion isn't definitive, the very fast that they agree that BioWare's marketing practices were unsound directly goes against notions that this is all just fueled by a few angry children.

There are very real and very valid arguments to be made. Ignoring them is a mistake. 

My point being that his complaints are subjective, taking us all the way back to how his analogy about them "fixing" ME3 is like fixing broken headlights, when a more accurate analogy would be them "fixing" the colour of the car. Youe point about the BBB is countered by mine about the ASA. All it shows is it's subjective like I've been saying, and not actually broken like he has.

Broken in a literal sense? Of course not.

But I can't recall in recent history a time when a product garnered this much backlash and the company did so little to address it. 

[PainCakesx]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

It´s the end of several years of
waiting, 100+ hours of gaming, and they screwed up royally in the last 5
minutes. Had they written a good, or even normal ending, most threads
would be about how great the saga was.

Actually, I think most threads would still be complaining, just about other things, because people like you and Pain that would be satisfied if the endings were different wouldn't post nearly as many positive threads about the game as other people would post negative threads. That's just the nature of forums. Remember when Mass Effect 2 was released, for example?

PainCakesx wrote...
Exactly. It's easy for people who liked the endings to assume that we just want something to hate on.

That is ignorant and far from the truth. If the endings were on par with the other 2, or even just slightly worse, I'd be fine. 

It's the degree of its failure, to myself at least, that makes this such an issue.

I don't assume you just want something to hate on. Moreoever, what makes you think I like the endings? I am neutral on them in the sense that some stuff I really like and some stuff I really don't. But I am able to criticize the product and the company's choices without implicit demands and obligations. Do you somehow think that saying you will abandon BioWare if they don't change the endings makes them more likely to change them? That's not obvious to me. I hope they never do an ending like this again. But that's clear in my criticisms and not my projections on the collapse of BioWare and the indifference of its employees.

No, but similar to how people give negative feedback to bad sellers on Ebay or write negative reviews on Amazon, BSN is the easiest way to express one's views in such a way that BioWare is likely to see it.

I'm not to the point that I'm goign to boycott everything ME (though if ME4 goes the same way, then that may change).

I'd never thought I'd see the day that I'd actually have to think about whether or not I want a new ME game though, and that is really something. To go from Day 1 Collector's Edition to likely buying used or bargain bin is quite an unfortunate shift. 

[Clayless]

PainCakesx wrote...

Robosexual wrote...

My point being that his complaints are subjective, taking us all the way back to how his analogy about them "fixing" ME3 is like fixing broken headlights, when a more accurate analogy would be them "fixing" the colour of the car. Youe point about the BBB is countered by mine about the ASA. All it shows is it's subjective like I've been saying, and not actually broken like he has.

Broken in a literal sense? Of course not.

But I can't recall in recent history a time when a product garnered this much backlash and the company did so little to address it. 

I don't consider a massive, free DLC, that was released ASAP, to be little. In fact I don't recall in recent history a time where any games company has done anything like this.

Modifié par Robosexual, 12 février 2013 - 08:45 .

[PainCakesx]

Robosexual wrote...

PainCakesx wrote...

Robosexual wrote...

My point being that his complaints are subjective, taking us all the way back to how his analogy about them "fixing" ME3 is like fixing broken headlights, when a more accurate analogy would be them "fixing" the colour of the car. Youe point about the BBB is countered by mine about the ASA. All it shows is it's subjective like I've been saying, and not actually broken like he has.

Broken in a literal sense? Of course not.

But I can't recall in recent history a time when a product garnered this much backlash and the company did so little to address it. 

I don't consider a massive, free DLC, that was released ASAP, to be little. In fact I don't recall in recent history a time where any games company has done anything like this.

Can you name a time in recent history where an ending caused this kind of backlash in the gaming industry? And  there is one example - Bethesda with Fallout 3. And the backlash to the original Fallout 3 ending wasn't nearly as widepsread as it was for ME3.

And the general response to the EC has been modest to underwhelming. It made it better, but it was a bandaid on a gunshot wound.

Modifié par PainCakesx, 12 février 2013 - 08:47 .

[CronoDragoon]

PainCakesx wrote...
But I can't recall in recent history a time when a product garnered this much backlash and the company did so little to address it.

Since it only makes sense to limit our scope to entertainment products such as video games, movies, or books, we have to further limit our scope to video games since there's not really an avenue for change in books and movies: the finished product is usually the finished product, barring director's cuts and such.

Limiting our scope to video games, there are actually several cases where games garnered backlash, and the company proceeded not only to ignore it but continue in the opposite direction in the next game: Resident Evil and Dead Space are examples. Additionally, exactly what changes did SE make to FF13, which garnered a lot of backlash? The answer is nothing until FF13-2, which was another game.

So, we also have to consider whether or not we believe that BioWare will not only make ME4's ending artsy and unsatisfying, but if they will make it even MORE artsy and unsatisfying. Then it might be comparable to my feelings on the direction of the Resident Evil series.

[PainCakesx]

CronoDragoon wrote...

PainCakesx wrote...
But I can't recall in recent history a time when a product garnered this much backlash and the company did so little to address it.

Since it only makes sense to limit our scope to entertainment products such as video games, movies, or books, we have to further limit our scope to video games since there's not really an avenue for change in books and movies: the finished product is usually the finished product, barring director's cuts and such.

Limiting our scope to video games, there are actually several cases where games garnered backlash, and the company proceeded not only to ignore it but continue in the opposite direction in the next game: Resident Evil and Dead Space are examples. Additionally, exactly what changes did SE make to FF13, which garnered a lot of backlash? The answer is nothing until FF13-2, which was another game.

So, we also have to consider whether or not we believe that BioWare will not only make ME4's ending artsy and unsatisfying, but if they will make it even MORE artsy and unsatisfying. Then it might be comparable to my feelings on the direction of the Resident Evil series.

Note RE6's and DS3's sales relative to their predecessors.

[CronoDragoon]

PainCakesx wrote...
No, but similar to how people give negative feedback to bad sellers on Ebay or write negative reviews on Amazon, BSN is the easiest way to express one's views in such a way that BioWare is likely to see it.

I am completely fine with you ripping the game here. Criticism isn't what drives BioWare away. It's comments and assumptions about the company and its employees that turns it "toxic." How can you truly say they don't listen to feedback when you've spent zero time in meetings? Casey Hudson even said that they referenced the statistical data collected on the BSN while making the Extended Cut. Lots of people snark at Ray's statement that they need to find a balance between listening to fans and respecting their writers. What exactly is wrong with that statement?

[Clayless]

PainCakesx wrote...

Robosexual wrote...

I don't consider a massive, free DLC, that was released ASAP, to be little. In fact I don't recall in recent history a time where any games company has done anything like this.

Can you name a time in recent history where an ending caused this kind of backlash in the gaming industry? And  there is one example - Bethesda with Fallout 3. And the backlash to the original Fallout 3 ending wasn't nearly as widepsread as it was for ME3.

And the general response to the EC has been modest to underwhelming. It made it better, but it was a bandaid on a gunshot wound.

So because backlash on other games was smaller that means the EC can just be considered very little? You used Fallout 3 for example, but all they released was a paid DLC how long after? How is that considered doing something but the EC is considered very little?

[Almostfaceman]

Robosexual wrote...

PainCakesx wrote...

Robosexual wrote...

My point being that his complaints are subjective, taking us all the way back to how his analogy about them "fixing" ME3 is like fixing broken headlights, when a more accurate analogy would be them "fixing" the colour of the car. Youe point about the BBB is countered by mine about the ASA. All it shows is it's subjective like I've been saying, and not actually broken like he has.

Broken in a literal sense? Of course not.

But I can't recall in recent history a time when a product garnered this much backlash and the company did so little to address it. 

I don't consider a massive, free DLC, that was released ASAP, to be little. In fact I don't recall in recent history a time where any games company has done anything like this.

Your satisfaction is obviously not at issue here. Mine is. I'm not satisfied. You can blah blah about subjective all day, but the point is still Bioware promised something and I don't think they delivered. People, including myself, have typed a novel's worth of feedback as to why we're not satisfied. Just because you don't agree with us, doesn't change the fact that we're not satisfied customers. That's what Bioware is in the business of doing, producing games that satisfy customers. 

[CronoDragoon]

PainCakesx wrote...

Note RE6's and DS3's sales relative to their predecessors.

What are their sales, and besides what does that have to do with criticism stemming from the core fan base?

[PainCakesx]

Robosexual wrote...

PainCakesx wrote...

Robosexual wrote...

I don't consider a massive, free DLC, that was released ASAP, to be little. In fact I don't recall in recent history a time where any games company has done anything like this.

Can you name a time in recent history where an ending caused this kind of backlash in the gaming industry? And  there is one example - Bethesda with Fallout 3. And the backlash to the original Fallout 3 ending wasn't nearly as widepsread as it was for ME3.

And the general response to the EC has been modest to underwhelming. It made it better, but it was a bandaid on a gunshot wound.

So because backlash on other games was smaller that means the EC can just be considered very little? You used Fallout 3 for example, but all they released was a paid DLC how long after? How is that considered doing something but the EC is considered very little?

I'd rather paid DLC that actually fixed things than a free DLC that merely put a bandaid on it. 

[CronoDragoon]

PainCakesx wrote...

I'd rather paid DLC that actually fixed things than a free DLC that merely put a bandaid on it. 

I don't see how the Fallout comparison fits. Fallout 3 changed the ending to have the protagonist survive because they were making a paid expansion, not the other way around.

[wright1978]

PainCakesx wrote...

I'd rather paid DLC that actually fixed things than a free DLC that merely put a bandaid on it. 

Fully agree  regarding this. 

[PainCakesx]

CronoDragoon wrote...

PainCakesx wrote...

Note RE6's and DS3's sales relative to their predecessors.

What are their sales, and besides what does that have to do with criticism stemming from the core fan base?

They've been underperforming.

My point is that it's true that other companies may have handled their PR very poorly, but they paid the price. 

If BioWare follows their lead, they'll pay the same price in future sales.

[spotlessvoid]

How can you consider the EC massive? The only reason it was so large was because they rendered stupid still pics as one long high res video. It's a soggy band-aid on a gaping head wound.

Anyone that thinks the EC fixed anything isn't paying attention

[wright1978]

spotlessvoid wrote...

How can you consider the EC massive? The only reason it was so large was because they rendered stupid still pics as one long high res video. It's a soggy band-aid on a gaping head wound.

Anyone that thinks the EC fixed anything isn't paying attention

Yeah describing EC as massive is rather comical.

[Clayless]

Almostfaceman wrote...

Robosexual wrote...

I don't consider a massive, free DLC, that was released ASAP, to be little. In fact I don't recall in recent history a time where any games company has done anything like this.

Your satisfaction is obviously not at issue here. Mine is. I'm not satisfied. You can blah blah about subjective all day, but the point is still Bioware promised something and I don't think they delivered. People, including myself, have typed a novel's worth of feedback as to why we're not satisfied. Just because you don't agree with us, doesn't change the fact that we're not satisfied customers. That's what Bioware is in the business of doing, producing games that satisfy customers. 

Which they did. If you're not satisfied then you can do what every unsatisfied customer does for everything:

Take your business elsewhere.

[spotlessvoid]

Basically, the guys stance comes down to I liked the ending and you didn't so you don't matter. Now stfu about it before they get angry and don't give me more of what I like.

[spotlessvoid]

" Take your business elsewhere."

Yes, smart businesses practice there

[CronoDragoon]

PainCakesx wrote...

They've been underperforming.

My point is that it's true that other companies may have handled their PR very poorly, but they paid the price. 

If BioWare follows their lead, they'll pay the same price in future sales.

Dead Space does not support your argument very well, since the reason the series shifted away from horror in the first place was underperforming sales of the first game, which led to more action and a snarky protagonist in Dead Space 2, which sold very well. As for Resident Evil, I'm not sure Capcom regrets its decision, since it probably still thinks (unfortunately) that despite underperfoming RE6 still sold more than a straight survival horror game would have.

My original point was that despite alienating the core fanbase, both series continued in the opposite direction in pursuit of sales. So I was just using them as examples of companies doing less than BW in response to criticism.

As for whether or not ME4 will pay the price: who knows? Perhaps it will. Perhaps it won't.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 12 février 2013 - 09:02 .

[spotlessvoid]

Maybe if Casey and Mac actually opened some dialogue about it instead of acting like "No, it's awesome, you fans are just stupid and whiny, buy DLC" people could actually try to move past it.