40 réponses à ce sujet

[Megami Nekohime]

Okay, so Teyrn Loghain is a commoner, as stated by Ser Bryant in Lothering, therefor making Anora a commoner as well. Since Cailen married a commoner, why is it that you have to be a noble human to marry Alistair as king? Not only that but it's stated in the game that once you become a warden you are only a warden, nothing else, including noble. So either Anora needs to be a noble and the warden can never marry King Alistair, or Anora stays as the game states and you may marry King Alistair with any origin. That's my opinion anyway, am I wrong?

Modifié par Megami Nekohime, 11 février 2013 - 09:20 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Legally, Anora and Loghain were basically the opposite of being commoners. However, Loghain was certainly born a commoner, and I don't think the woman he married had any claim to being nobility except insofar as she was married to him.

That was probably what Ser Bryant meant by that. It's legally irrelevant, but there you go. As for Anora marrying the king, she was the daughter of a former commoner who now held a ridiculously prestigious title. Which he gained by saving the king's life on at least two occasions. And I think Loghain had had the title all Anora's life. (I'm not 100% on that, though, since I haven't read the books.)

As for why the HN warden can marry Alistair or Anora but the others can't, the Wardens who aren't HNs are by necessity either mages or non-human. Being either of those drastically limits you politically, and the HNs, Anora, and Loghain are neither.

As for the thing where Wardens can't be nobles, just ignore that. Everyone in Ferelden and Orzammar does.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 11 février 2013 - 09:32 .

[ejoslin]

Anora was the child of a Teryn, same as the human noble. That Loghain was appointed Teryn in his lifetime is irrelevant -- Anora was still of noble birth.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Megami Nekohime wrote...

Okay, so Teyrn Loghain is a commoner, as stated by Ser Bryant in Lothering, therefor making Anora a commoner as well. Since Cailen married a commoner, why is it that you have to be a noble human to marry Alistair as king? Not only that but it's stated in the game that once you become a warden you are only a warden, nothing else, including noble. So either Anora needs to be a noble and the warden can never marry King Alistair, or Anora stays as the game states and you may marry King Alistair with any origin. That's my opinion anyway, am I wrong?

I don't think the PC being a noble has much to do with it. It's more that the Human Noble is the only Origin that can ultimately be queen. The other Origins are non-human or mages, which would not be accepted.

If the Human Commoner Origin had gone ahead and Alistair had said no, then you'd be able to complain.

Edit: Beaten by Riverdaleswhiteflash. I should read replies before I answer

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 11 février 2013 - 11:28 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...


Edit: Beaten by Riverdaleswhiteflash. I should read replies before I answer

Eh, I just made the same mistake and got beat by a dev. Beaten by several days, in fact.

[Knight of Dane]

The Closest you can get without HN is with a Male Aeducan I beleive. At least I seem to remember Anora considering it. ^^

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I don't remember trying with my Aeducan. I do remember trying with my Surana, and she admits she's tempted, but then tells you the people will never go for a mage on the throne. Is she more enthusiatic about an Aeducan?

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 12 février 2013 - 04:54 .

[TEWR]

I think the dialogue has her saying that the people wouldn't go for X, where X is what you're playing as.

As for the question, Loghain was a commoner born but a noble made after the Orlesian Occupation. Around 9:00 Dragon, Anora was born, as she's nearing or has had her thirtieth birthday in-game. Loghain was granted the title of Teyrn in 9:11 Dragon, according to the codex entry on Gwaren.

Anora was born a commoner as well, but because she was the daughter of a man who became a high noble it granted her a certain... peerage? It also helps that Cailan and Anora spent their childhoods together and were an arranged marriage.

[ejoslin]

That timeline confuses me because in the book "The Stolen Throne" there's no mention of Loghain getting married or having a child, yet IIRC he was named Teyrn.  Didn't that happen in that book?  Am I misremembering?  I only read it once, and that was a long time ago.

Gah, I need to stop overthinking that timeline.

Modifié par ejoslin, 12 février 2013 - 04:11 .

[Corker]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Legally, Anora and Loghain were basically the opposite of being commoners. However, Loghain was certainly born a commoner, and I don't think the woman he married had any claim to being nobility except insofar as she was married to him.

Yup. Celia was the daughter of a cabinet-maker.

[tklivory]

ejoslin wrote...

That timeline confuses me because in the book "The Stolen Throne" there's no mention of Loghain getting married or having a child, yet IIRC he was named Teyrn.  Didn't that happen in that book?  Am I misremembering?  I only read it once, and that was a long time ago.

Gah, I need to stop overthinking that timeline.

I'm hoping that the book coming out (World of Thedas) will at least stipulate certain points in the timeline. Of course, from what little I've seen, there's already inconsistencies between what the book says and what the devs have said in the forum. (For instance, it says Celene was born 9:06, but Gaider said that Celene was sixteen when she became Empress in 9:20. 

Ah, well. At least it will be interesting.

[Megami Nekohime]

I can kind of see how the argument about not being a HN makes you lesser, but I have a couple of issues with that. First of all, dwarves aren't considered lesser, they're a different kingdom with their own hierarchy. Yes mages and elves are considered lesser, but once Alistair takes the thrown he works to change these things. He frees the tower of magi in the mage origin and he gives the elves land trying to fix the human/elf relationship. And since Anora was in fact a commoner when she was betrothed to Cailen then why is it that no other origin can rise to this with Alistair, especially if he's hardened?

Modifié par Megami Nekohime, 12 février 2013 - 07:28 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I don't believe anyone said anything about dwarves being lesser. All we said was they would not be accepted on the throne. Which probably has a lot to do with the thing where they're a different kingdom. (Though, yes, Thedas being what it is a lot of people probably see them as lesser.)

As for your question about Anora being a commoner when she had the match made with Cailan, I'm pretty sure that her father had been elevated by the time of the betrothal. If not, then certainly he was by the time his daughter married. Which in turn makes her the heir to a terynir, thus not a commoner. And once you're elevated, it's no longer relevant that you were once a commoner. (Or, not legally, anyway. Yes, a fair number of people probably care that Loghain was once a commoner, but he saved the freaking country, and had an in with two successive kings. So they seem to have kept their mouths shut until after Ostagar.)

Nor is this line of discussion entirely relevant to your main question, since its not the lack of noble status that prevents Alistair or Anora from marrying a non-HN. I mean, it'd be harder to pull off marrying a non-noble as royalty, but then the Warden ends up doing things that put Loghain's accomplishments to shame, and he was elevated to teryn for his heroism. No, the real killing blow to the non-HN's desire for the throne is that they have to be either non-human or a mage. Which are, as you mentioned, seen as lesser. Yes, Alistair wants that to change. Yes, Anora probably realizes that it should. But neither of them can cause it to right off the bat.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 13 février 2013 - 01:45 .

[Megami Nekohime]

double post. :innocent:

Modifié par Megami Nekohime, 13 février 2013 - 04:38 .

[Megami Nekohime]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

I don't believe anyone said anything about dwarves being lesser. All we said was they would not be accepted on the throne. Which probably has a lot to do with the thing where they're a different kingdom. (Though, yes, Thedas being what it is a lot of people probably see them as lesser.)

As for your question about Anora being a commoner when she had the match made with Cailan, I'm pretty sure that her father had been elevated by the time of the betrothal. If not, then certainly he was by the time his daughter married. Which in turn makes her the heir to a terynir, thus not a commoner. And once you're elevated, it's no longer relevant that you were once a commoner. (Or, not legally, anyway. Yes, a fair number of people probably care that Loghain was once a commoner, but he saved the freaking country, and had an in with two successive kings. So they seem to have kept their mouths shut until after Ostagar.)

Nor is this line of discussion entirely relevant to your main question, since its not the lack of noble status that prevents Alistair or Anora from marrying a non-HN. I mean, it'd be harder to pull off marrying a non-noble as royalty, but then the Warden ends up doing things that put Loghain's accomplishments to shame, and he was elevated to teryn for his heroism. No, the real killing blow to the non-HN's desire for the throne is that they have to be either non-human or a mage. Which are, as you mentioned, seen as lesser. Yes, Alistair wants that to change. Yes, Anora probably realizes that it should. But neither of them can cause it to right off the bat.

So what about if you request a title as your boon? That would give the king or queen the right to marry a warden of any origin with a title bestowed upon them by the crown. I realize the queen might still say no because she's not in love with the warden, but the king is head over heels for her. I would think he would search for any loop hole he could to make her his bride.

Modifié par Megami Nekohime, 13 février 2013 - 04:41 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

That depends. Can the Warden ask to be human/non-magical as well?

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 13 février 2013 - 09:16 .

[sylvanaerie]

And when the warden can ask for their boon it's already been decided who will rule Ferelden. Too late to say "Wait, I'm a teryn/bann now, you can ask me!"

The biggest issue as I always saw it, was the racism (vs dwarves/elves) and anti-magi sentiments of the population. Prejudices over a 1000 years in the making, not just a few decades. That's a LOT of generations. Anora and Alistair may give the Warden a title but that's a LONG way from getting the Landsmeet to accept someone they consider lesser (ie mages, elves and dwarves) as King/Queen. A human commoner might have been accepted, being they're human and not magi, but that origin never saw the light of day.

And the Circle isn't made as free as we'd like since we learn in DA2 it's still there, and still full of mages/templars 7 years later. The King/Queen may say one thing but putting it in actual practice may take decades, or generations to see. The whole circle thing didn't suddenly pop up overnight and overthrowing it will take possibly generations/decades to change things.

Or in the case of the mages, one nutcase with a hair trigger sparking a violent confrontation.

[Megami Nekohime]

When you mention marrying him he only states that the warden is not noble and he doesn't think the landsmeet would go for it. He says nothing about her not being human. The landsmeet may make an exception for a warden because it's a prestigious job, not to mention she's the savior of Ferelden. And even though it's been decided who will rule; if you didn't have Alistair and Anora marry then it wouldn't be hard to add a proposal into the epilogue choices. It just seems like it's not an impossible scenario to me.

Modifié par Megami Nekohime, 14 février 2013 - 02:48 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Oh, that explains that misunderstanding; Anora mentions everything except the lack of a title. Probably because she watched a non-nobly born human get accepted into Ferelden noble society. Or, maybe she doesn't bother thinking the non-noble thing through that far on account of the rather more obvious problem. Either way, it still seems that with the precedent Loghain sets, and the fact that you did something a lot more impressive than merely saving the country from slavery, merely being a commoner shouldn't be a disqualification. (For that matter, it's entirely possible that the precedent a mage or non-human teryn sets might lead to a king or queen from one of those groups.)

(I don't know why Alistair cites the lack of a title, as opposed to the other thing. I can understand if he thought that was a problem on account of his own status as an unknown and a bastard, but any origin where that's an issue already comes with the non-human/mage/both thing. It seems to me that those are stickier issues what with there not being any precedent for them ending up on the throne. Frankly, I'm already surprised he can get away with making a mage/non-human a teryn.)

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 13 février 2013 - 11:33 .

[Megami Nekohime]

Well, I know that if I was in the Landsmeet personally and he or she wanted to make the person who just saved all our lives a noble I'd have no objection to it. lol
He does tell the warden that he doesn't care if she's an elf, and I think mage grows on him. I haven't played a human mage, only elven, so I can't speak about that.
Being that a noble is not considered lesser, they should be able to marry regardless of race in my opinion.

[lyriumaddict104]

Can't mages not have have titles, even if they're noble born? Does that change however when the mage Hero of Ferelden receives his/her boon? I remember someone else on the forum saying that Anora's the only one who's honest with the Warden that the problem is really race, not so much social class. Like others have said, a human commoner could probably be elevated and thus be allowed to marry Alistair. But I agree with the others who have said that there's probably too much prejudice to ever allow a mage or elf to rule beside either Anora or Alistair. You see how they're treated in Ferelden in the rest of the game. One of the nobles at the Landsmeet said they wouldn't listen to a lecture on battle strategy from an elf, of all people. And I seem to recall someone calling my DN a foreigner, like some have said, being considered one from another kingdom with a different hierarchy. Either Anora or Alistair said Fereldens wouldn't want a foreigner on the throne, not just a dwarf.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

[quote]lyriumaddict104 wrote...

Can't mages not have have titles, even if they're noble born? Does that change however when the mage Hero of Ferelden receives his/her boon? [/quote]

Well, that's what I said, I'm suprised too. But there's a large difference between being the teryn (ridiculously prestigious already) and being the queen.
[/quote]

[TEWR]

Can't mages not have have titles, even if they're noble born? Does that change however when the mage Hero of Ferelden receives his/her boon?

I imagine his status as Warden sort of nullifies his status as a Mage.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Megami Nekohime wrote...

Well, I know that if I was in the Landsmeet personally and he or she wanted to make the person who just saved all our lives a noble I'd have no objection to it. lol

Yeah, that's because you didn't grow up either hating the entire group that birthed the person who saved you, or in the best case scenario just not seeing them as an equal.

He does tell the warden that he doesn't care if she's an elf, and I think mage grows on him. I haven't played a human mage, only elven, so I can't speak about that.
Being that a noble is not considered lesser, they should be able to marry regardless of race in my opinion.

Yeah, but the problem is selling it to the Landsmeet. Anora and Alistair each have shaky enough claims without having to talk the nobles into accepting a non-politically-sound spouse.

And the people at large won't be happy either, for that matter. They riot in the streets over the elven bann thing, and the City Elf doesn't even have any authority over them. Good luck telling them they have to bow to that same elf.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 14 février 2013 - 05:42 .

[Megami Nekohime]

But they're okay with them being a chancellor or consort to the king that has more say over political affairs then Anora as queen? They're okay with Wynne, a mage, being at court?

Modifié par Megami Nekohime, 14 février 2013 - 06:30 .