587 réponses à ce sujet

[CosmicGnosis]

Careful guys, or this might get locked...

[DeinonSlayer]

clennon8 wrote...

Please no more gifs. Not that those aren't funny, but string too many of those in a row and the thread will get locked.

Don't worry, I'm done.

[ruggly]

My bad, will stop derailing now

[Sibu]

clennon8 wrote...

Free will is an illusion, just to get that out of the way. Go to youtube and search on "Sam Harris free will" if you want to hear a fascinating discussion of the topic.

However, that does not exonerate one from the consequences of their actions.

But this tangent runs the risk of derailing the thread. Let's not let that happen.

Determinism is bull****. Quantum Physics disagree with you.

[ghost9191]

Indy_S wrote...

ghost9191 wrote...

well i don't think anyone on these forums can be called a luddite... i mean ffs they are talking about someone that is on the forums ( which they are most likely using a computer to access ) for a game that they play on console or computer

The reason this thread is titled the way it is is because it's a response to a post by Auld Wulf.

The OP is desiring to disconnect transhumanism and Synthesis. Just because he believes in one, he doesn't have to believe in the other. Auld Wulf infers that everyone who doesn't accept Synthesis is a luddite.

fair enough, but my statement does still work.  I personally have no problem with trashumna but wouldn't want to go that route myself. all for others doing it ... and it just seems someone found a new word and started throwing it around. because luddite ( as said ) doesn't work for anyone using a computer lol

[GethPrimeMKII]

Excellent thread. Very interesting arguments coming from both sides. Now if we could just tone down the insults, that'd be great. I'd rather not see the most interesting thread to come about in days get locked.

[mvaning]

Ariella wrote...

Cat isn't a Reaper itself

It is left ambigious whether the catalyst is a reaper.   What we do know is that when he speaks about himself, he says "We", implying that he is speaking of himself and of the reapers.      What he says is . . .

"In as much as you are just an animal, I embody the collective intelligence of all Reapers"

Saying that the Catalyst is not a reaper is just as incorrect as saying that it is a reaper.   It is not elaborated on -- it is an unknown. 

Ariella wrote...
. . .and we've seen NO evidence that it has the indoctrination ability.

On the contrary, the Catalyst clearly states that it controlled the Illusive Man. 

Shepard:  "So. . the Illusive Man was right after all. "
Catalyst:  "Yes, but he could never have taken control because we already controlled him."

If this isn't verbatum admittance to using Indoctrination, I don't know what is.        It is very clear that it can indoctrinate.    

Auld Wulf wrote...
Shh. You're injecting facts and lore-correct statements into their delusions. You have to ease them off their craziness slowly, you can't just make them face their shameless genocide apologism right away. And it is so shameless and defensive, my goodness. But yes, you're 100 per cent right about this, and this is really the thorn in the side of Catalyst haters. They want to portray him as this faceless ebil, and yet there's nothing in the game to justify it.

Ah, binary thinkers... so limited, and so violent! Reapers are 0, so... the Catalyst must be 0, too because he's not 1! 1 is me, 1 is good. 1 must destroy all of 0 in order to preserve 1, the geth will die too? Well, the geth must be 0! 1 must be preserved at all cost! Sigh. Binary thinkers and their bizarre love of genocide as an easily chosen option. And hey, if you're a luddite on top of that, it becomes so much easier to hate the Catalyst and just brush over lore.

Every arguement that I have seen you present on these forums has been refuted and I've never seen you able to refute any of those arguments with a sensible counter-arguement.

To me, it seems as though your only way of defending your arguements is by telling people that they are either delusional, a neo-luddite or a binary thinker.   Your un-qualitative assessment of someones intelligence is not a qualitative counter-arguement.  It looks to me like you are the one using binary logic.  

Modifié par mvaning, 13 février 2013 - 02:20 .

[GethPrimeMKII]

I don't see how its ambiguous as to whether the catalyst is a reaper. He clearly says "we" and "us" whenever he mentions the reapers. Those terms seem pretty damning to me.

[o Ventus]

The Catalyst is the ubiquitous "Intelligence" described by the Leviathans. The Catalyst even describes itself in a similar fashion to how Leviathan did. Leviathan and the Catalyst both tell you that the Reapers are a product of the Catalyst's plan.

Logic dictates that the Catalyst is not a Reaper, especially considering that Harbinger is explicitly said to be the first Reaper.

[clennon8]

Presumably, the Catalyst isn't a flying cuttlefish. Whether he can be called a "Reaper" or not is debatable. Husks, Marauders, and Cannibals aren't flying cuttlefish, but they are commonly referred to as "Reapers." Certainly, the Catalyst repeatedly identifies himself with the Reapers.

This seems like a semantical issue not worth arguing over, really. The important thing is that the Catalyst claims to control his creations. How does he control them? Indoctrination? Something similar? Some completely different method? We don't know for sure. Regardless, I think it is quite a stretch to leap to the conclusion that the Catalyst is incapable of indoctrination. Seems to me the default position should be that he is quite capable of indoctrinating, and the burden of proof should be on anyone who asserts otherwise.

[TurianRebel212]

I don't have a problem with trans-humanism- In real life we are experiencing trans-humanism, with social networking, facebook, cellphones, ect. interconnecting the world everyday. Technology is a good thing.

But back to ME, synthesis is bad cause it's proposed by a reaper- not just any reaper but THE reaper. Why would you trust anything it says. The only good reaper is a dead reaper.

Synthesis has been proposed before. This guy named Saren wanted it. But nothing was wrong with him...... So just go along with it.

Being this is a synthesis thread, I'll try not to derail it to much. But the same can be said about control.

[GethPrimeMKII]

o Ventus wrote...

The Catalyst is the ubiquitous "Intelligence" described by the Leviathans. The Catalyst even describes itself in a similar fashion to how Leviathan did. Leviathan and the Catalyst both tell you that the Reapers are a product of the Catalyst's plan.

Logic dictates that the Catalyst is not a Reaper, especially considering that Harbinger is explicitly said to be the first Reaper.

The Leviathans mention an intelligence. They make no mention of the catalyst being the intelligence. But, what the Leviathans are more than happy to show you is the ability to hijack your mind, and craft a hallucination made from your memories. The reapers' version of this is, by their own admission, much more powerful. 

The catalyst takes the form of the child. There's no reasonable explanation or this that does not involve the reapers being able to tap into Shepard's mind and pull out memories and information. Claiming to be the intelligence makes sense, seeing as the term "intelligence" is taken from Shepard's memories. 

On another note the catalyst also claims to be the Citadel itself. How can that be if the reapers created the citadel, yet he created the reapers?

[Cyberfrog81]

The "intelligence" is Reaper, as in Reaper faction. If you believe what it says, it does the thinking for all the Reapers.

So what you call it doesn't change
(1) that it is your number one enemy (and doesn't deserve your trust, much less your faith in it)
(2) that it can indoctrinate, at the very least by proxy

Modifié par Cyberfrog81, 13 février 2013 - 02:46 .

[CosmicGnosis]

Here's a quote from one of the leaked scripts that I just learned about today. Don't know if we can consider it canon, but I think this should have been clarified in the final game:

Catalyst: "But you must act. I can't proceed. Go. If you don't, the cycle will continue, but I will no longer control the Reapers."

Refuse contradicts this quote, unless the Catalyst gains control over the Reapers once the Crucible is destroyed. Still, it explains why the Catalyst couldn't just hold the Reapers and spend hours explaining everything to Shepard.

[mvaning]

GethPrimeMKII wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

The Catalyst is the ubiquitous "Intelligence" described by the Leviathans. The Catalyst even describes itself in a similar fashion to how Leviathan did. Leviathan and the Catalyst both tell you that the Reapers are a product of the Catalyst's plan.

Logic dictates that the Catalyst is not a Reaper, especially considering that Harbinger is explicitly said to be the first Reaper.

The Leviathans mention an intelligence. They make no mention of the catalyst being the intelligence. But, what the Leviathans are more than happy to show you is the ability to hijack your mind, and craft a hallucination made from your memories. The reapers' version of this is, by their own admission, much more powerful. 

The catalyst takes the form of the child. There's no reasonable explanation or this that does not involve the reapers being able to tap into Shepard's mind and pull out memories and information. Claiming to be the intelligence makes sense, seeing as the term "intelligence" is taken from Shepard's memories. 

On another note the catalyst also claims to be the Citadel itself. How can that be if the reapers created the citadel, yet he created the reapers?

I think the simple explanation is. .

The ME3 writers were boozing while writing the Catalyst's lines of dialogue.

[Mathias]

Auld Wulf wrote...

Ariella wrote...

Cat isn't a Reaper itself and we've seen NO evidence that it has the indoctrination ability.

Shh. You're injecting facts and lore-correct statements into their delusions. You have to ease them off their craziness slowly, you can't just make them face their shameless genocide apologism right away. And it is so shameless and defensive, my goodness. But yes, you're 100 per cent right about this, and this is really the thorn in the side of Catalyst haters. They want to portray him as this faceless ebil, and yet there's nothing in the game to justify it.

Ah, binary thinkers... so limited, and so violent! Reapers are 0, so... the Catalyst must be 0, too because he's not 1! 1 is me, 1 is good. 1 must destroy all of 0 in order to preserve 1, the geth will die too? Well, the geth must be 0! 1 must be preserved at all cost! Sigh. Binary thinkers and their bizarre love of genocide as an easily chosen option. And hey, if you're a luddite on top of that, it becomes so much easier to hate the Catalyst and just brush over lore.

You see what I mean?

It's just draining.

[clennon8]

Cyberfrog81 wrote...

The "intelligence" is Reaper, as in Reaper faction. If you believe what it says, it does the thinking for all the Reapers.

So what you call it doesn't change
(1) that it is your number one enemy (and doesn't deserve your trust, much less your faith in it)
(2) that it can indoctrinate, at the very least by proxy

Agreed.

[RyuGuitarFreak]

I oppose synthesis only because I think Shepard shouldn't force such a big change to all the galaxy, even though his journey led to that possibility.

I embraced control and Reaper-god-Shepard. He'll keep doing his job through the reapers.  Hell yeah to an absolute powerful freedom fighter entity and hell not to let the geth and EDI die.

Modifié par RyuGuitarFreak, 13 février 2013 - 02:58 .

[Mathias]

Regarding Edi and The Geth...

To me, a true Synthetic that naturally grows to feel alive, holds way more weight to it, then them feeling alive by becoming half organic through Synthesis. My conversation with Edi near the end of the game tugged at my heartstrings a bit. She finally gives her opinion on something that was not based on logic, but her determination to fight the Reapers and win the war, and then she flat out states that due to Shepard's influence, she's beginning to feel truly alive.

We also see first hand the Geth wishing to make peace with the Quarians, to which they do, and upon their new alliance, they offer to help their Creators in rebuilding their homeland, so that they can both live together in peace. And then there was the big line by Legion, "Does this unit have a soul?"


This was all done, without Synthesis.

Modifié par Mdoggy1214, 13 février 2013 - 03:02 .

[GethPrimeMKII]

mvaning wrote...

GethPrimeMKII wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

The Catalyst is the ubiquitous "Intelligence" described by the Leviathans. The Catalyst even describes itself in a similar fashion to how Leviathan did. Leviathan and the Catalyst both tell you that the Reapers are a product of the Catalyst's plan.

Logic dictates that the Catalyst is not a Reaper, especially considering that Harbinger is explicitly said to be the first Reaper.

The Leviathans mention an intelligence. They make no mention of the catalyst being the intelligence. But, what the Leviathans are more than happy to show you is the ability to hijack your mind, and craft a hallucination made from your memories. The reapers' version of this is, by their own admission, much more powerful. 

The catalyst takes the form of the child. There's no reasonable explanation or this that does not involve the reapers being able to tap into Shepard's mind and pull out memories and information. Claiming to be the intelligence makes sense, seeing as the term "intelligence" is taken from Shepard's memories. 

On another note the catalyst also claims to be the Citadel itself. How can that be if the reapers created the citadel, yet he created the reapers?

I think the simple explanation is. .

The ME3 writers were boozing while writing the Catalyst's lines of dialogue.

I'd prefer it if you didnt quote my posts just to write something silly in response. If you have a genuine counter argument then write it. If not, why waste time writing that?

[o Ventus]

GethPrimeMKII wrote...

The Leviathans mention an intelligence. They make no mention of the catalyst being the intelligence. But, what the Leviathans are more than happy to show you is the ability to hijack your mind, and craft a hallucination made from your memories. The reapers' version of this is, by their own admission, much more powerful. 

The catalyst takes the form of the child. There's no reasonable explanation or this that does not involve the reapers being able to tap into Shepard's mind and pull out memories and information. Claiming to be the intelligence makes sense, seeing as the term "intelligence" is taken from Shepard's memories. 

On another note the catalyst also claims to be the Citadel itself. How can that be if the reapers created the citadel, yet he created the reapers?

1. So it's a wild coincidence that Leviathan describes the Intelligece in a specific manner, and the Catalyst describes itself in a nearly identical manner?

2. It most certainly does not claim to be the Citadel. Verbatim, the Catalyst says "the Citadel is a part of me", meaning that the Catalyst is housed somewhere inside the Citadel, presumably in the area Shepard is transported to after passing out.

Modifié par o Ventus, 13 février 2013 - 03:06 .

[GethPrimeMKII]

o Ventus wrote...

GethPrimeMKII wrote...

The Leviathans mention an intelligence. They make no mention of the catalyst being the intelligence. But, what the Leviathans are more than happy to show you is the ability to hijack your mind, and craft a hallucination made from your memories. The reapers' version of this is, by their own admission, much more powerful. 

The catalyst takes the form of the child. There's no reasonable explanation or this that does not involve the reapers being able to tap into Shepard's mind and pull out memories and information. Claiming to be the intelligence makes sense, seeing as the term "intelligence" is taken from Shepard's memories. 

On another note the catalyst also claims to be the Citadel itself. How can that be if the reapers created the citadel, yet he created the reapers?

1. So it's a wild coincidence that Leviathan describes the Intelligece in a specific manner, and the Catalyst describes itself in a nearly identical manner?

2. It most certainly does not claim to be the Citadel. Verbatim, the Catalyst says "the Citadel is a part of me", meaning that the Catalyst is housed somewhere inside the Citadel, presumably in the area Shepard is transported to after passing out.

You're putting words in my mouth. Nowhere did I say coincidence. My point was that both Leviathans and reapers possess the ability to influence organic minds the way the leviathans did to Shepard. They are both able to take memories and information from the mind of their thralls. So if Leviathans can conjure images of dead Aurora team scientists in Shepards mind, the reapers are capable of conjuring images of a dead child using Shepard's memories. 

And yes, the catalyst is also said to be the citadel. Vendetta seems to think so as well.

[mvaning]

GethPrimeMKII wrote...

mvaning wrote...

GethPrimeMKII wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

The
Catalyst is the ubiquitous "Intelligence" described by the Leviathans.
The Catalyst even describes itself in a similar fashion to how Leviathan
did. Leviathan and the Catalyst both tell you that the Reapers are a
product of the Catalyst's plan.

Logic dictates that the Catalyst
is not a Reaper, especially considering that Harbinger is explicitly
said to be the first Reaper.

The Leviathans mention an
intelligence. They make no mention of the catalyst being the
intelligence. But, what the Leviathans are more than happy to show you
is the ability to hijack your mind, and craft a hallucination made from
your memories. The reapers' version of this is, by their own admission,
much more powerful. 

The catalyst takes the form of the child.
There's no reasonable explanation or this that does not involve the
reapers being able to tap into Shepard's mind and pull out memories and
information. Claiming to be the intelligence makes sense, seeing as the
term "intelligence" is taken from Shepard's memories. 

On another
note the catalyst also claims to be the Citadel itself. How can that be
if the reapers created the citadel, yet he created the reapers?

I think the simple explanation is. .

The ME3 writers were boozing while writing the Catalyst's lines of dialogue.

I'd
prefer it if you didnt quote my posts just to write something silly in
response. If you have a genuine counter argument then write it. If not,
why waste time writing that?

Sorry, I don't mean to offend.     I agree with points of both of your arguements here, which leads me to the conclusion that the existance of the Catalyst needs in game clarification by the writers.  

Modifié par mvaning, 13 février 2013 - 03:23 .

[clennon8]

I really shouldn't be referring to Starchild as "the Catalyst," because I think "I am the Catalyst" is one of his lies. More likely, the Citadel is the Catalyst, just as Vendetta said. Starchild is the Intelligence mentioned by the Leviathans. He is housed on the Citadel, and he is a factor that the designers of the Crucible didn't account for.

Modifié par clennon8, 13 février 2013 - 03:24 .

[Paranoidal nemesis]

Synthesis replaces DNA, it acknowledges that all organics are inherently flawed, and that the only way to save it is to no longer make it organic

I also made a thread about why Synthesis is a betrayal of all the life that came before it. Synthesis, the apex of evolution as the catalyst calls it, brings life thousands, maybe millions, of years further, all within the span of a few minutes.
These new superior life forms: your squad, your LI, everyone, is a much higher evolved life form than they were when they knew you. As EDI says, they have immense access to knowledge and may transcend mortality.

The problem is this: the intellectual distance between those that have become synthesized and those that died as organics, is too great for the two different to meaningfully relate to each other anymore.
Do you think your LI, thousands of years more advanced than she/he was when they knew you, could or would really have any emotional connection to a Shepard that died as an inferior life form? No; look at the history of evolution.


Everyone that wasn't apart of synthesis is akin to neanderthal's and everyone who was apart of it is akin to ****** sapiens.